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 Wyzilla wrote:


Yeah, Alpharius was far worse. The Horus Heresy overall really needs to just be rebooted and carefully handed out to authors, or give each specific author a legion to work with, and only that author writes that legion for some basic consistency. That way we don't have another case of Abnett setting up all his wonderful pieces, then McNeil barges in a drunken stupor and smashes all the work.

I mean, if the normal Black Library was written like the Horus Heresy, Guy Haley would have quickly butted into ADB's Night Lords and written Blood Reaver instead, then finally Abnett would have finished the series with Void Stalker.

 Alpharius wrote:
I don't think The Alpha Legion (fully) believed the Cabal and are in fact working their own game.

At least I did believe that after LEGION.

Now, not so much...

My main gripe with Legion, apart from the Cabal conversations, was the pacing. Convincing Alpharius is something GW could've milked across several books for more delicious monies and it would make it a lot more believable. They could've expanded on Alpharius/Omegon's alienation/mistreatment by the other Primarchs, resulting in resentment, turning into hatred, which Horus eventually uses to convince them they'd be appreciated in his new Imperium of Man. There's stuff in HH3 they could use, like why Dorn, Rawbutt, and even Curze are disgusting by the Alpha Legion. Hell, they could even expand on what they did with the Blood Angels in Fear to Tread; have Sanguinius get angrier and angrier, reprimanding Alpharius and his Legion etc for keeping the Blood Angels out of the loop. There are so many options which wouldn't have exposed the Alpha Legion's secrets while making their position far more believable. An Alpharius/Omegon being eventually convinced by the Cabal amidst growing hatred for his brothers would make sense - one simple video hasn't convinced anyone of anything, ever.

2/3rds of the book are spent on Nurth, which is mostly boring. When the book finally gets going it's over in a few paragraphs. I liked aspects, like the plot involving Grammaticus' girlfriend/romantic interest and how that ended up, how the Alpha Legion treated the Cabal, but some of the dialogue and logic required such a suspension of disbelief, even in a universe such as the wh40k universe.

I think it was mentioned here recently, but I kinda liked the "original" fluff of the Alpha Legion turning due to Alpharius' friendship with Horus, wanting to prove themselves against SMs, possibly some other reason, and finally fighting a guerilla war across the galaxy. It was just how the Cabal were tied in seemed VERY forced.

 raiden wrote:

 darkflame182 wrote:
Sanguineus is my choice! And he isnt incorruptible as eny primarch . Imagine that horus dies chaos gods give little different dream or vision or whatever to Sanguineus and blam. I understand that every one is just protecting theirs favorite character , but I honestly think that eny on can be turned , maiby in name of good or in the name of imperium, it's just time and eford for chaos and so on + I don't think chaos needs to destroy imperium it needs war suffering and such... ( sorry for bad English )

my favorite is actually guilliman. I love sanguinius tho, Johnson too. but no, it explicitly states in fluff (BL) that he will/would have never fallen.

I believe you are thinking of the time that Horus stated that Sanguinius would never turn? In that case, it is heavily implied in the book that Horus was lying simply because he was afraid of what could happen if Sanguinius did fall. Personally I believe any and all of the primarchs could have fallen to Chaos.

Guilliman would be the obvious one. Already a well respected and well known leader. He could rally most of them to his cause if he had reason to do so. The rest all have major failings that would have kept the others away. Dorn is too hoity toity to get respect, Perturabo is to pissed off about everything, Curze could care less at what chaos offered and would probably be offended by the offer, Mortarion would not have sided with chaos unless he had to in order to save his men plus he wasn't well liked, no one knows who Khan is. Vulcan might have been able to pull the other primarchs together, I would give him a close second. The lesser primarchs just lack the ummmph to do it well.

If we are talking an overt leader, then i would say Loregar at he head of a ideological revolution. If not then i would say Alpherius simply because if the heresy were to be covert and unobtrusive it would be far more widespread, corrupting and virulent. which all of the chaos gods, besides Khorne, would get behind.

 raiden wrote:
Angorn or fulgrim

I doubt Angron, if they are using a brain. Angron is not a leader among the primarchs. They need a leader, and planner. Spartacus er Angron can't plan with the brain switch thing on.

No one is incorruptable..... save maybe the emperor.... he was just a dick

 GKTiberius wrote:
If we are talking an overt leader, then i would say Loregar at he head of a ideological revolution. If not then i would say Alpherius simply because if the heresy were to be covert and unobtrusive it would be far more widespread, corrupting and virulent. which all of the chaos gods, besides Khorne, would get behind.

Lorgar was unsuited to lead the Heresy. Chaos and Lorgar knew it. there's a REASON why despite being the first primarch they corrupted he wasn't in charge. no one would follow him. Lorgar was viewed as sort of a "less competant little brother" by most of the primarchs./

Hey look guys, a line from Codex: Space Marines states that the Ultramarines were the most crucial legion during the aftermath of the Heresy! Clearly that means that Gulliman's dick was the biggest!

But seriously, who cares. Everyone knows the Ultramarines are the reason there's an Imperium after the Heresy.

it would be either the blood angels or dark angels primarchs

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
They would use Guilliman of course. He had a rivalry with Horus and could be considered highly ambitious.

Not likely.

Guilliman was more or less immune to the lure of the Ruinous Powers, as they had nothing he wanted.

You see, most of the primarchs that fell all embodied one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins, or the Eight Evil Thoughts which the 7DS were later derived from. Horus (hubris, avarice), Fulgrim (lust, pride), Lorgar (envy), Angron (wrath), Curze (wrath) Perturabo (envy), Alpharius (hubris), Magnus (hubris)...

Guilliman, on the other hand, is the 40K embodiement of the Roman Virtues of Pietas, Prudentia, Virtus, etc. Lorgar fell because he needed validation. Guilliman saw fulfillment of his duty as all the validation he needed. Horus was worried he'd have no place after the Great Crusade. Guilliman was already preparing for it. Fulgrim became obsessed with perfection. Guilliman simply worked hard at it.

There was never any chance of Guilliman being corrupted, no more than there was of Russ being corrupted. These were primarchs for whom duty and loyalty were their own reward, and there was little room for self-doubt. Chaos preyed on the primarchs who weak of spirit, or weak of character (or both, in the case of Lorgar, which is why he was first). A few of the loyal primarchs could have theoretically been turned. Guilliman was not one of them.

Guilliman is a humblebrag he would never openly boast of his achievements but its clear from his characterization in the Horus Heresy novels that he would like to do so. Which is why some of his brothers disliked him in the vein of "I wish that roboute would just own up to his accomplishments, I'm tired of his fake humility"

I don't think they could have really chosen another and had success. If Horus had died, I doubt they could have found an effective means of selecting a successor and not have the Heresy collapse.

godking wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
They would use Guilliman of course. He had a rivalry with Horus and could be considered highly ambitious.

Not likely.

Guilliman was more or less immune to the lure of the Ruinous Powers, as they had nothing he wanted.

You see, most of the primarchs that fell all embodied one or more of the Seven Deadly Sins, or the Eight Evil Thoughts which the 7DS were later derived from. Horus (hubris, avarice), Fulgrim (lust, pride), Lorgar (envy), Angron (wrath), Curze (wrath) Perturabo (envy), Alpharius (hubris), Magnus (hubris)...

Guilliman, on the other hand, is the 40K embodiement of the Roman Virtues of Pietas, Prudentia, Virtus, etc. Lorgar fell because he needed validation. Guilliman saw fulfillment of his duty as all the validation he needed. Horus was worried he'd have no place after the Great Crusade. Guilliman was already preparing for it. Fulgrim became obsessed with perfection. Guilliman simply worked hard at it.

There was never any chance of Guilliman being corrupted, no more than there was of Russ being corrupted. These were primarchs for whom duty and loyalty were their own reward, and there was little room for self-doubt. Chaos preyed on the primarchs who weak of spirit, or weak of character (or both, in the case of Lorgar, which is why he was first). A few of the loyal primarchs could have theoretically been turned. Guilliman was not one of them.

Guilliman is a humblebrag he would never openly boast of his achievements but its clear from his characterization in the Horus Heresy novels that he would like to do so. Which is why some of his brothers disliked him in the vein of "I wish that roboute would just own up to his accomplishments, I'm tired of his fake humility"

In saying that you do remind me of something. In Know No Fear there is a throwaway line about Guilliman from the persective of Marius Gage (First Chapter Master, rank similar to Abaddon or Sigismund). "He was a hard man to like." Likely the author didn't even remember it being there but if his own Legion find him hard to like...

 Talizvar wrote:
The most "worthy" would be Lorgar (Wordbearers), he put in such an awful lot of work.

Even Lorgar knew nobody would follow him, which was why they chose Horus.

Lol yeah people keep picking Magnus, He resisted the Chaos Gods the longest time and without Horus' corruption he wouldn't have turned.

Look at it this way.


Horus did die, and has been dead for a long time. And who exactly did the Chaos gods pick?

No one. I'm pretty certain Be'Lakor was the last one who had the blessing of all the gods. So that makes two beings in the whole galaxy over how many thousands of years?

My vote is Sanguinius, because he was the most beloved of all the Primarchs and had demonstrable flaws for them to go after.

Magnus was option one, but he turned them down (passively) through his understanding of the Warp and the beings within it.

Horus was option two because of the leverage he could bring to bear over the other Primarchs. They had to empower him sufficiently to go toe-to-toe with the Emperor, which may have been easier with Magnus (less of a power-up needed). Horus came with the bonus of easily bringing huge mortal forces with him, so made a good option two.

Option three? I would say Sanguinius, because he was very similar to Horus in all the aspects that made Horus useful to Chaos.



Lorgar seems like an obvious choice, but Lorgar was the guide, not the leader.

Lorgar sounds like the most obvious choice. No chance Girlyman would have fallen to Chaos.

Without Horus, there could be no effective heresy.His ability to move loyal legions out oof way, distract, both link and equip them with latest gear.

Yes there is sanguinius but he was loyal, would he turn?
He was willing to die for the emperor, taking on Horus even loaded up on chaos juice to the max.

Not many candidates have the links to build a heresy.

Xyptc wrote:
Magnus was option one, but he turned them down (passively) through his understanding of the Warp and the beings within it.

Horus was option two because of the leverage he could bring to bear over the other Primarchs. They had to empower him sufficiently to go toe-to-toe with the Emperor, which may have been easier with Magnus (less of a power-up needed). Horus came with the bonus of easily bringing huge mortal forces with him, so made a good option two.

Option three? I would say Sanguinius, because he was very similar to Horus in all the aspects that made Horus useful to Chaos.



Lorgar seems like an obvious choice, but Lorgar was the guide, not the leader.

I think the fact they tried corrupting Magnus first and failed should pretty much absolve him from being chosen in this poll.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
For what it is worth, I feel that if Horus stays true and dies a hero's death. Fulgrim is the next likely candidate. He usually keeps contact with the rest of his brother Primarchs.

If everyone recalls, it took lots of time to fully convert Horus to pure Chaos. Given enough time, Fulgrim could keep his sins in check to manipulate his brothers, to lead them into the Fulgrim Federation.

HAHAHAHA

If by "lots of time to convert Horus" you mean just a couple days with Erebus giving the convincing argument of "The Emperor is EEEEEEVUUUUUL" in a dream?

Horus fell faster then guardsmen to Chaos. And we can all thank McNeil for that horrible, horrible book.

Dreams can stretch out time to infinite lengths. Its a dream. Horus could have been under for days but to him it felt like decades. Horus also had the grand priviledge of having Erebus trying to perform Inception on him, while dying and having everything he knew and love being revealed as a lie

Except in the book it boiled down to Erebus simply showing him images that could have been complete bs, and anyone capable of meager critical thinking would have no reason to believe. Also, yeah no, in the book it is just Erebus saying EMPEROR BAD, CHAOS GUD and Horus falling in with it with very little protest at all. It makes Horus look like young child, appearing to even lack basic critical thinking skills found even in adolescents. Especially given that it was pulled off by just a small cabal of native psykers- so apparently all you needed to turn what was supposed to be one of the greatest primarchs from his creator and long-time father figure was just making him doubt in him, while presenting no evidence.

Really, all that horrible book did was prove that Horus is mentally challenged oaf.But of course, given the fairly poor writing standards of the Horus Heresy, most of the Primarch do just come off as whiny children, and are as far removed from the intellect of actual leaders as possible.

This, this was what bugged me about that book. Erebus took on a glamour of Sanjanus to freak out Horus, but I remember Magnus breaking in and ripping the glamour off. Horus, now confronted with the fact that two legions are using forbidden magics doesn't stop to think he may have some investigating to do, just decides to throw everything away.

Then again, I thought Alpharius made sense. He probably knew enough of the overall situation that if Horus turned, there was no saving humanity. The best he could do was end the suffering.

Indeed, the tactical choice, given the shaky allegiance of the Dark Angels, would be the Lion. But 'Dark Lord Lionel Johnson' doesn't have that ring to it.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Look at it this way.


Horus did die, and has been dead for a long time. And who exactly did the Chaos gods pick?

No one. I'm pretty certain Be'Lakor was the last one who had the blessing of all the gods. So that makes two beings in the whole galaxy over how many thousands of years?

Abaddon has the blessings of all 4.

 Talizvar wrote:
The most "worthy" would be Lorgar (Wordbearers), he put in such an awful lot of work.

Then it would be a toss-up between Alpharius Omegon (Alpha Legion) or Perturabo (Iron Warriors) for the two smartest of the lot. I could not pick Magnus (Thousand Sons) since followers of Korn would have some issues with him.

Possibly Alpharius would be the top pick since he is a long game / big picture tactician while Perturabo is a rather ruthlessly practical kinda guy (no flare for the dramatic that others would appreciate).

I agree with Lorgar, the original trator, but not Alpharius, they alliance would never fully be commitied to Chaos, their are some hints that they did what they did to combate the primordial annialator.

Ofc Fulgrim he was obtained by chaos in very similar time as Horus, if my memory doesn't fails me, on Istvaan V(?) Fulgrim was alredy possessed by some Slaanesh demon...

If you take out all the loyalists, it HAS to be Fulgrim. There is nobody else that all the traitors would have followed or would have had the charisma to lead the heresy.
Night haunter and Angron were on the crazy juice.
Lorgar was considered weak by the others.
Purturabo was disliked and dismissed by all despite his achievements.
Alpharius and Omegon were the least trusted (and the smallest).
Mortarion was like a bitter old man and I've yet to see a single piece of charisma from him in the fiction.
Magnus was forced into betrayal by his own side and knew about the powers of the warp and their trickery already, so I wouldn't even begin to consider him.
Fulgrim is the only one left, even if he went quite a bit crazy himself. He got Purturabo to follow him before tricking him. Purturabo has only ever followed the Big E and Horus himself. His charisma and leadership has been demonstrated in mulitple books.

And there is NO WAY the primarchs would have followed Abaddon or Aximand.

Fulgrim was a panzy, fancy pants, snob. They all knew that.

I argue that any of the traitorous primarchs would have a hard time succeeding Horus. The reason why they went traitor was because they were all scorned, or distrusted. Not leader material.

Like I said before, Sanguinius would be the best choice as he has the charisma and the support of several primarchs. All chaos has to do is stage a Davin part 2 and they have a new leader. No guarantees that Sanguinius would turn of course.

I completely agree, which is why I said if you take out all the loyalists.
Who would you pick out of the traitors?

Poly Ranger wrote:
If you take out all the loyalists, it HAS to be Fulgrim. There is nobody else that all the traitors would have followed or would have had the charisma to lead the heresy.

He was looked upon with disdain by many other traitors and led one of the smallest legions. I doubt even half the traitors would follow him

Poly Ranger wrote:

And there is NO WAY the primarchs would have followed Abaddon

And yet, in the 41st millenium, they do just that.

Which Primarchs now follow Abaddon? Angron who doesn't care anymore as long as he gets to shed blood for khorne? No-one else.
So who else would you have picked out of the traitors then over Fulgrim and why?