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Poly Ranger wrote:
For a start though it means 'veterans' can not possibly have a lot of experience with plasma weaponary - unless they are as lucky as a lottery winner.
Secondly, if you knew a gun had an incredibly high chance of killing you if you fired it - you would be more scared of it than you would the opponent, that's no fit state of mind to go into battle with!

Heh, look at this guy, with his "fit state of mind" and his "experienced veterans"!

In the Imperial Guard, if you survive your first three battles, then you're a hardened veteran! Fit state of mind? Can you recite your prayers to the Emperor? Do you hate the Xeno, the Mutant and the Heretic? Then you're in the proper state of mind, Soldier!

Poly Ranger wrote:
For a start though it means 'veterans' can not possibly have a lot of experience with plasma weaponary - unless they are as lucky as a lottery winner.
Secondly, if you knew a gun had an incredibly high chance of killing you if you fired it - you would be more scared of it than you would the opponent, that's no fit state of mind to go into battle with!

Ya know its entirely possible that the venting doesn't straight kill the guardsman
its possible they got injured so they take him and the gun off to a field medic to get patched up.

There are a lot of vets with bionic parts and stuff. its also possible the weapon it self malfunctions to the point it needs to be sent back for repairs. so for whatever reason the guardsman escorts it back considering its worth more than his life.

All in the fiction given to us in the form of the 'imperial idea' as presented in codicies and the like, from the eyes of the imperial body, but the novels tell it different, they give a humanity to the guard. No matter what the imperial truth says, they are still human beings with human emotions, thoughts and fears after all, and will behave as such.
Besides - there's many of the Ghosts who have survived dozens of battles and skirmishes.
If you saw more than one of your mates burned alive by plasma venting from a gun, would you hold, let alone fire such a gun in future. Commisariate be dammned - in reality it would lead to mutinies forcing that many guardsmen to take weapons that would betray them to a horribly gruesome death. That's human nature - and no amount of fiction can change the basis of human nature.
They (GW) really haven't thought it through. BL have however as you don't read about every plasma gunner in a company dieing of plasma burns in the first few minutes of a battle.
1 in 36 shots I could maybe credit... but 1 in 6? Really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
For a start though it means 'veterans' can not possibly have a lot of experience with plasma weaponary - unless they are as lucky as a lottery winner.
Secondly, if you knew a gun had an incredibly high chance of killing you if you fired it - you would be more scared of it than you would the opponent, that's no fit state of mind to go into battle with!

Ya know its entirely possible that the venting doesn't straight kill the guardsman
its possible they got injured so they take him and the gun off to a field medic to get patched up.

There are a lot of vets with bionic parts and stuff. its also possible the weapon it self malfunctions to the point it needs to be sent back for repairs. so for whatever reason the guardsman escorts it back considering its worth more than his life.

True - hadn't thought of that. But still - 1 in 6 shots requiring a replacement hand?

Poly Ranger wrote:
All in the fiction given to us in the form of the 'imperial idea' as presented in codicies and the like, from the eyes of the imperial body, but the novels tell it different, they give a humanity to the guard. No matter what the imperial truth says, they are still human beings with human emotions, thoughts and fears after all, and will behave as such.
Besides - there's many of the Ghosts who have survived dozens of battles and skirmishes.
If you saw more than one of your mates burned alive by plasma venting from a gun, would you hold, let alone fire such a gun in future. Commisariate be dammned - in reality it would lead to mutinies forcing that many guardsmen to take weapons that would betray them to a horribly gruesome death. That's human nature - and no amount of fiction can change the basis of human nature.
They (GW) really haven't thought it through. BL have however as you don't read about every plasma gunner in a company dieing of plasma burns in the first few minutes of a battle.
1 in 36 shots I could maybe credit... but 1 in 6? Really?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
For a start though it means 'veterans' can not possibly have a lot of experience with plasma weaponary - unless they are as lucky as a lottery winner.
Secondly, if you knew a gun had an incredibly high chance of killing you if you fired it - you would be more scared of it than you would the opponent, that's no fit state of mind to go into battle with!

Ya know its entirely possible that the venting doesn't straight kill the guardsman
its possible they got injured so they take him and the gun off to a field medic to get patched up.

There are a lot of vets with bionic parts and stuff. its also possible the weapon it self malfunctions to the point it needs to be sent back for repairs. so for whatever reason the guardsman escorts it back considering its worth more than his life.

True - hadn't thought of that. But still - 1 in 6 shots requiring a replacement hand?

Its also one of those cinamatic games that doesnt 100% match with the rules it self.

For all we know it could be firing way more than 1-2 shots. considering an assault cannon only shoots 4 shots. but in reality its probably going BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

You know, I bet veterans volunteer for Plasma gun duty all the time. "Hey, Sarge, my expensive and rare weapon broke! I'm just going to take it back to the depot, kay thanks!".

Commisariate be dammned - in reality it would lead to mutinies forcing that many guardsmen to take weapons that would betray them to a horribly gruesome death. That's human nature - and no amount of fiction can change the basis of human nature.

Hence Traitor Guard.

Also... plasma weapons are exceptionally rare. Most Guardsmen will never see one.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You know, I bet veterans volunteer for Plasma gun duty all the time. "Hey, Sarge, my expensive and rare weapon broke! I'm just going to take it back to the depot, kay thanks!".

heh. That's one way to dodge commissar.

Okay, providing that Plasma weaponry follows current known laws of physics:

A common misconception with plasma weapons is that, in the event of an overheat, they would explode or otherwise do something equally destructive. This isn't true in the slightest: plasma weapons work on the concept of nuclear fusion, which is a surprisingly safe form of energy generation, but also extremely lethal if weaponised. To actually initiate a self-sustaining fusion reaction, you need a lot of heat (upwards of several million degrees Centigrade) and some way to contain the reaction. The latter can either be gravity (as in stars) or extremely powerful magnetic containment fields. As we can't currently generate gravity, magnetism will have to do.

In an Imperial plasma weapon, when you pull the trigger, a certain amount of hydrogen fuel would be siphoned from the fuel cell and fed into the fusion chamber. An electrical arc would energise the hydrogen into a plasma state contained by a magnetic coil, and then vented out of the from of the weapon via additional electromagnetic coils. The reason why Imperial plasma weapons are more inherently destructive is due to the method by which the contain the plasma, probably a Tokamak design. It produces a lot more heat and energy than a Dense Plasma Focus, but is harder to control. Hence, Imperial plasma weapons are more prone to overheating as the coils can't be cooled quickly enough to reliably contain the fusion reaction.



In-universe, a plasma weapon overheating wouldn't be too much of a big deal. If you look at the diagram above, you can see that the entire front portion of the weapon is a glorified heat sink. It's sole purpose is to vent excess heat and plasma in the event that the Machine Spirit detects that the core temperature is starting to reach critical thresholds. Unfortunately, your hand happens to be very close to those vents. Hence, if the weapon starts venting, the most likely thing that will happen is that your hand will be burned and your eyebrows singed off. Should the wind be blowing towards you, that could result in your entire face being badly burned. Not exactly something you want to happen, but Imperial tech usually has these glaring flaws THAT THE MECHANICUS HASN'T FIXED YET EVEN AFTER 10000 YEARS. A**hats. If the weapon fails to vent properly, though, you could find yourself holding a gun that is spewing superheated plasma out of holes that shouldn't be there.

Let's just keep in mind that these things are probably fired in bursts of three to four shots at a time. However, an Assault 3/4 S7 AP2 weapon would be overpowered on the tabletop so it's Rapid Fire for balance reasons. Especially when you can have a Guard squad with 3 of them. They're likely to overheat fairly often as their user doesn't really have enough time to let the thing cool passively, and so they have to resort to burst firing until it vents, waiting until it cools down, then repeating that process. It's not surprising that a lot of Guard who use them suffer debilitating injuries. Still...

Spoiler:

The various RPGs that give Rates of Fire for Plasma Weapons indicate that, at best, they are semi-automatic, firing one shot per combat round/turn/whatever. Some even require a cool-off period, allowing you to fire only every other turn. Most plasma weapons also have very limited shot-capacity in the flasks, some as low as 3.

Yeah, we really need to be careful how much we apply crunch to fluff. There is no way they would issue a weapon that will kill its operator 1 out of every 8 uses (factoring in the saving throw).

They are just dangerous!

I think the table top overheat mechanic is exaggerated for simplicity's sake. I don't think anyone wants to roll percentages for every plasma shot.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah, we really need to be careful how much we apply crunch to fluff. There is no way they would issue a weapon that will kill its operator 1 out of every 8 uses (factoring in the saving throw).

They are just dangerous!

really?your saying the IMPERIUM of trillions would not do this?The same imperium with the inquisition and commisars?you think that thats where they would draw the line?

 Psienesis wrote:
Wargear is always more valuable than its wielder, regardless of what and who.

In 40k or in general? Because modern militaries would dump 5 planes for an experienced pilot without thinking twice.

Yes, in 40K.

I just always saw it as an unstable component like a power core or something just overheats and detonates due to its instability

Way back in 2nd edition days, the background for plasma weapons had the dangerous plasma weapons being a relic of the Heresy, and only in use among Traitor Legions while Space Marines and Imperial forces used plasma weapons that could fire only on alternate turns:

At the time of the Horus Heresy plasma weapons technology was at a dangerous phase in its development. Plasma reactors were in limited use, and the giant weapons mounted on Titans and space ships were a simple outgrowth of the systems needed to create reactors. Plasma guns and pistols which could be carried and used by a Space Marine in power armour were still prone to overheating and leaking energised plasma onto their unfortunate users...

Towards the end of the Heresy the Tech-Priests of Mars solved the immediate problems of plasma weapons. By slowing the recharge mode of the weapons they found they could maintain the integrity of the magnetic field containing the energising plasma. This prevented catastrophic leaks detonating the whole weapon and the slower recharge cycle also meant that the weapon's coolant system kept overheating to a minimum.

The resulting weapons were safe and reliable but suffered from a slow recharge rate which limited their effectiveness. Space Marine commanders were far from happy at the compromise but the number of catastrophic meltdowns experienced with the older weapons made plasma too dangerous for the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes to continue using otherwise. As doctrine within the Adeptus Mechanicus changed the old style plasma weapons were branded Fabrus Excommunicata, engines of destruction that had fallen from the approval of the Machine God. WIthin a few centuries the early plasma weapons had entirely disappeared.

Such a light of reason has never shone over the Traitor Legions. They still maintain and use the old, dangerous plasma weapons, perhaps revelling in the raw danger of doing so. Given the contempt held for life held by Chaos Space Marines it's unlikely they would be willing to trade off less firepower for a safer weapon anyway.

p. 74, 2nd edition Chaos Codex

In 2nd edition, when these plasma weapons misfired, there were several outcomes from Overheating, Severe Overheating, Plasma Leak, to Meltdown. Only Meltdown actually destroyed the weapon.

So using that, one could suppose that these days when a plasma gun misfires, it may not be actual death for the gunner but rather incapacitating for the purposes of continuing the battle.

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it looks cool. No other reason. It's kind of like Star Wars... good guys shoot blue, bad guys shoot red. Space Marines shoot blue, Necrons shoot green. Chaos shoots red. Tau shoot white-blue. Eldar shoot white. Dark Eldar shoot purple.

It actually depends on what kind of gas you use in the blaster (IIRC), it's just that the CIS use a type of gas that fires red lasers, and the Republic uses gas that fires blue lasers. Rebels use green gas.
There are different qualities of gas, the highest being red and the lowest being green.

I don't see it exploding and killing the user. I see it causing burns and such, other wise no one would use them. Also, the fact the user gets an unmodified armor save tells me it is less catastrophic than actually getting hit by a plasma weapon.

Try convincing someone in ANY military of the following:

Yeah, you get to use this gun, it is really powerful. But, it has a pretty good shot of killing you every time you fire it.

 Mattlov wrote:
I don't see it exploding and killing the user. I see it causing burns and such, other wise no one would use them. Also, the fact the user gets an unmodified armor save tells me it is less catastrophic than actually getting hit by a plasma weapon.

Try convincing someone in ANY military of the following:

Yeah, you get to use this gun, it is really powerful. But, it has a pretty good shot of killing you every time you fire it.

"But, Commissar, that sounds like a bad idea".

"Guardsman, if you use this weapon it may kill you. If you don't and defy your orders I WILL kill you".

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Mattlov wrote:
I don't see it exploding and killing the user. I see it causing burns and such, other wise no one would use them. Also, the fact the user gets an unmodified armor save tells me it is less catastrophic than actually getting hit by a plasma weapon.

Try convincing someone in ANY military of the following:

Yeah, you get to use this gun, it is really powerful. But, it has a pretty good shot of killing you every time you fire it.

"But, Commissar, that sounds like a bad idea".

"Guardsman, if you use this weapon it may kill you. If you don't and defy your orders I WILL kill you".

And Commissar then gets fragged by his own men.

Imperial propaganda aside, the Imperial Guard are still human. If Imperial propaganda were always true, no Guardsmen would ever feel fear or ever break and run away, but we know that is not the case. As harsh as the Imperium is, it does still need to know when to make compromises for the sake of military efficiency. If a Commissar literally shot someone for every little transgression no matter how small (even if by the strict letter of the regulations he might be correct), he could jeopardize the ability of his command to achieve military objectives, and for the Imperium that would be the greater sin. Yes, some Commissars are that rigid and stupid but they appear to be the exception not the rule, and Commissars need to know when to enforce the rules and when to turn a blind eye to minor things.

Refusing to use your assigned weapon is not a 'minor thing'.

Its somewhat annoying that every protagonist Commissar in the Black Library novels is noted as being 'an exception to the normal mass of ruthless monsters'. Literally every Commissar except Holt has had, somewhere in his fluff, a note that says "Unlike most Commissars who take a hard line approach....'

I imagine the limitation of the d6 warps our view of the situation of both us and GW

My take is they're may be something like a 1% chance of a catastrophic failure or maybe even 10%

All weapons have the potential for a catastrophic failure, with plasma maybe being a bit of a higher chance, but when a CF occurs it's simply more damaging If the percentage is directly translated that's a 16% chance of failure

Number's like that may be acceptable to a guardsmen, but i wouldn't think highly valuable operators such as space marine or say plasma pistol inquisitors would even be allowed to touch them, due to themselves being far more useful and valuable compared to the weapon itself, especially considering that there is other options for weaponry that can be ass effective as plasma without that almost 20% chance of a CA

whilst the effect's of the CA can vary from slight injury to death, 16% chance of that weapon failing is just to much to take into account.

If you think of a marine section for example if hes weapon fail's that's a massive loss of firepower and could compromise their tactical value, sure he has a bolt pistol but that sidearm isnt going to be very useful in a large firefight

If you think about it would a modern army equip itself with a machine gun of a failure rate of 16%, no way. Considering the tactical knowledge that marines are equiped with id honestly think that a 16% failure rate would be unacceptable

It's just a way that GW have imprinted their idea of the weapon into the game

The failure risk is a game balance mechanic to counteract the effect of plasma guns being such good Marine killers. In 2nd edition, it rapidly became clear the Mk.1 plasma guns of the Chaos Space Marines (i.e. the guns that overheated) were superior in-game to the safer ones used by Space Marines (which had to recharge for a full turn after firing, effectively halving their firepower since they could only fire alternate turns). Few players were willing to sacrifice that amount of firepower just to avoid the risk of overheating (which much of the time a Chaos Space Marine would have survived anyway).

I havent read all of the replies so it this has been said i apologise. In the fluff I imagine that the plasma pistol fires the bolt of plasma. it doesnt heat the surrounding air because of the protective magnet jacket until it hits the target. the jacket bursts and the plasma flies everywhere superheating the air around it (setting jackets alight and whatnot). when the plasma weapon overheats it vents like the Halo gun and the user gets burnt... a lot, as in their hands melt and the guy next to him has an arm that melts away and his storm coat bursts into flames. i cant see the weapon exploding because IIRC the technology for making plasma weapons is lost to everyone except the DA (and the rest of the unforgiven by association) if the weapon exploded then they wouldnt have lasted this 10k+ years let alone be common enough for a mere commissar attached to the Ghosts to wield.

but thats just fluff stuff in game theres nothing more demoralising/uplifting that having one of your heavy wepons explode on you.

 MrBlackledge wrote:
I havent read all of the replies so it this has been said i apologise. In the fluff I imagine that the plasma pistol fires the bolt of plasma. it doesnt heat the surrounding air because of the protective magnet jacket until it hits the target. the jacket bursts and the plasma flies everywhere superheating the air around it (setting jackets alight and whatnot). when the plasma weapon overheats it vents like the Halo gun and the user gets burnt... a lot, as in their hands melt and the guy next to him has an arm that melts away and his storm coat bursts into flames. i cant see the weapon exploding because IIRC the technology for making plasma weapons is lost to everyone except the DA (and the rest of the unforgiven by association) if the weapon exploded then they wouldnt have lasted this 10k+ years let alone be common enough for a mere commissar attached to the Ghosts to wield.

but thats just fluff stuff in game theres nothing more demoralising/uplifting that having one of your heavy wepons explode on you.

Ah, forgot about that magnetic bottle. Yeah, that would prevent the bolt from injuring the user as it left the barrel. Otherwise, if it overheats, the weapon would probably have to emergency vent some of the reactor contents. If some of that gets on you, that'll hurt. That said chances of failure of a plasma gun in-universe are somewhere around five percent or so, probably less. It's just that the game works in D6s so a roll of one makes it easier to represent.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it looks cool. No other reason. It's kind of like Star Wars... good guys shoot blue, bad guys shoot red. Space Marines shoot blue, Necrons shoot green. Chaos shoots red. Tau shoot white-blue. Eldar shoot white. Dark Eldar shoot purple.

It actually depends on what kind of gas you use in the blaster (IIRC), it's just that the CIS use a type of gas that fires red lasers, and the Republic uses gas that fires blue lasers. Rebels use green gas.
There are different qualities of gas, the highest being red and the lowest being green.

Yes, sort of. But, really, it's because it looks cool.

One of my Jedi dual-wields sabers with bubblegum-pink blades. Why? Because she can (and an extra 820 HP is nothing to sneeze at).

Iracundus wrote:And Commissar then gets fragged by his own men.

And then the entire Regiment is rendered into gun-servitors, and their familes on their homeworld are sold into indentured servitude to be Naval Ratings unto 100 generations, to repay the Imperium for the costs incurred in turning their traitorous Guardsmen into servitors, and the homeworld itself is decimated, as a lesson to others who might consider refusing orders.

I would say that the platoon would be flogged for disobedience but that works too.

 Psienesis wrote:

And then the entire Regiment is rendered into gun-servitors, and their familes on their homeworld are sold into indentured servitude to be Naval Ratings unto 100 generations, to repay the Imperium for the costs incurred in turning their traitorous Guardsmen into servitors, and the homeworld itself is decimated, as a lesson to others who might consider refusing orders.

Now that simply isn't true. The two Death Korps of Krieg regiments on Vraks that failed miserably in their attack and killed the Commissars that tried to stop them falling back were only punished with being turned into Penal Legion. Didn't affect any future generations on Krieg either.

The population of Krieg is already 100% tithed to the Guard. There's not much more you can do with them.

And a Penal Legion is a death sentence.

 Psienesis wrote:
And a Penal Legion is a death sentence.

Tbh, normal DKoK is not much better.