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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
240 for 2 S10AP1 shots is not a bad cost.
A railgun hammerhead pays 125 points base to have a single one.

240 points to knock an average of one hullpoint off an AV 12 vehicle a turn is not a good cost.

Hammerheads are considered a lackluster unit for a reason, and even then you can at least reliably buff it into BS5, ignores cover etc.

I'm sorry, as an AV13 wall skimmer player, I will not unpack my models if the opponent is bringing ignores cover railguns. It's the only thing I really dread about Tau.

 wuestenfux wrote:
As said Serpent spam, psyker spam, msu Jetbike spam, pseudo rending troop guns, D scythes, Wraithknights with their toughness and fast movement, Fire Dragons, a units with melta weapons, Warp Spiders, and not to forget Warwalkers with their decent shooting can really be a pain for the enemy.
No other army out there has comparable capabilities.

See this is what I don't get.

Wave Serpent, more than 1 Wraithknight, spamming Jetbikes, bladestorm, mantletarch etc. I agree, but the others?

Eldar being a codex that is psyker heavy has been a thing since as long as Eldar have existed. In fact 6th edition hit the warlocks pretty hard with the nerfbat since they lost their ability to automatically be able to cast their psychic powers and could only cast it with 66% success, and they got EVEN WORSE in 7th because their chance of successfully casting a psychic power was reduced from 66% to 50%.

D scythe WG are costly as hell and useless without a WS. This makes the unit about as costly as a Landraider filled with Assault Terminators, and those are very powerful as well so I dont see why people are complaining. Sure, it gets messy when you attach some Farseers and have them cast their shenanigans to buff the unit even more, but then SM or CSM players have access to 3+ inv. EW Stormshield artifacts or daemon weapons that wreck face in cc,

Fire Dragons have been around since the 90s. The only thing the current Eldar codex changed was give them 3+ sv instead of 4+, but at appropriate extra points cost. So they actually became worse as their primary job was to alpha strike an enemy tank and reduce it to slag right after disembarkation, but now that the whole unit is more costly, they wont earn their points back as effectively as before, and most likely still get wiped out in a turn of enemy fire.

Again, Warp Spiders havent changed much either.

And Warwalkers actually got worse because their "if hit by a weapon higher than S8, reduce it to S8" ruling got reduced to a 5+ inv save, which is pretty useless since they'll be behind 4+ cover most of the time anyway.


I seriously hope GW does not remove codex powers from the Eldar dex next edition. Because if they do, I'll be seriously pissed. Eldar and their set of iconic psychic powers was what brought me into this game in the first place.

Witch hunt!!!!
The opponents of Eldar need no logic.

Just don't spam. This literally goes for all codices. Take a variety of thing and you will be good.

Some Codices rely on spam, because their unit count is low.

morgoth wrote:
Witch hunt!!!!
The opponents of Eldar need no logic.

Ahem.

I love how everyone is hating on Eldar. The really aren't that bad if you don't spam them fiercely. Wave Serpents did take a hit with the Jink save this edition so if you shoot at them and I junk I cant fire as effectively next turn. I also can't think of a more expensive dedicated transport that can't be gotten elsewhere. Landraiders sure but look at the guns on that thing and armor 14 as well. Its deffinately a battle tank and a scatter laser wave serpent (which is what everyone cries about) won't even touch a LR. its 145 points for a standard use Wave Serpent. I think we more then pay the points for these Tanks (yes they have the tank profile).

 Xerics wrote:
I love how everyone is hating on Eldar. The really aren't that bad if you don't spam them fiercely. Wave Serpents did take a hit with the Jink save this edition so if you shoot at them and I junk I cant fire as effectively next turn. I also can't think of a more expensive dedicated transport that can't be gotten elsewhere. Landraiders sure but look at the guns on that thing and armor 14 as well. Its deffinately a battle tank and a scatter laser wave serpent (which is what everyone cries about) won't even touch a LR. its 145 points for a standard use Wave Serpent. I think we more then pay the points for these Tanks (yes they have the tank profile).

Wave Serpents got a boost from the new Jink rules - they can now choose to jink if they are shot at even first turn, even if not moved. Multiples mean that they may not be shot at and so fire their powerful guns

they are AV 12 which is great and not easy to kill - - read all the rest of the thread and see why people don;t enjoy playing against cheesy Serpent spam - its a hard counter to fun.

They are also fast

They are also Objective secured

They also have stupidly ranged guns wwhich ignore cover, can't be knocked out , have stupid arcs

etc etc

and hats as an Eldar player ................

My problems with Codex: Eldar begin and end with Wave Serpents. Everything else in the codex is powerful but manageable. Putting a magical free weapon that in any other codex would cost well over 60 points on a designated transport is not. It is simply one of the worst design mistakes in current 40k.

 Xerics wrote:
I love how everyone is hating on Eldar. The really aren't that bad if you don't spam them fiercely. Wave Serpents did take a hit with the Jink save this edition so if you shoot at them and I junk I cant fire as effectively next turn. I also can't think of a more expensive dedicated transport that can't be gotten elsewhere. Landraiders sure but look at the guns on that thing and armor 14 as well. Its deffinately a battle tank and a scatter laser wave serpent (which is what everyone cries about) won't even touch a LR. its 145 points for a standard use Wave Serpent. I think we more then pay the points for these Tanks (yes they have the tank profile).

So you would rather pay 110 points extra to increse ur AV by 2, lose a crap ton of shooting, lose jink, and become extremely susceptible to drop melta (which is everywhere in the game). Ya no thanks.

Wave Serpent vs Land Raider

Over 100 pts cheaper

Wave Serpent - 3++ jink, ignore pens on 2+ if facing drop pods, 12 12 10
Land Raider - 14 14 14, can fire at one extra target

Wave Serpent - 4 Str 6 (twin Links everything), 3 Str 6 (rending on 6), D6 Str 7 (ignore cover)
Land Raider - 2 str 9 ap 2 and 3 str 5 ap 4.

In what way are you paying for your tanks? An opponent sets 4 LR down, I am the happiest man alive because I have an easy game, Someone puts 4 WS down and I cry.

How about 2 Dark Eldar Raiders vs 1 Wave Serpent

Raider - 1 Lance ea (str 8 ap 2) so 2 shots. wooptie freaking doo. Oh and on top of that go ahead and blow me up on a 6 which kills 7/10 occupents.

Wave Serpents should have no shields period. Even then they are more than worth their points.

I honestly don't care if Eldar fanboys are going to defend Wave Serpents. The rest of the codex is okay, but the Wave Serpent is far from any form of balanced.

I look forward to their 7th edition book and when Wave Serpents get nerfed, and people forget how to play anything else from their book.

Of course, GW could not fix it, and I will seriously lose hope in this game altogether

 krodarklorr wrote:
I honestly don't care if Eldar fanboys are going to defend Wave Serpents. The rest of the codex is okay, but the Wave Serpent is far from any form of balanced.

I look forward to their 7th edition book and when Wave Serpents get nerfed, and people forget how to play anything else from their book.

Of course, GW could not fix it, and I will seriously lose hope in this game altogether

I know this is GW, and one should never underestimate their ability to cash grab, but aren't all of the 6th Ed Codices effectively the 7th Ed ones as well? As in, Eldar already, technically, have their 7th Ed Codex? Which means Serpent Spam isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Which blows goats for bus fare. But for GW, having people buying Wave Serpents in droves must be pretty good, since they are $45 USD a pop. So I doubt that even if Eldar get a Codex update that Spam is going to get fixed.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I honestly don't care if Eldar fanboys are going to defend Wave Serpents. The rest of the codex is okay, but the Wave Serpent is far from any form of balanced.

I look forward to their 7th edition book and when Wave Serpents get nerfed, and people forget how to play anything else from their book.

Of course, GW could not fix it, and I will seriously lose hope in this game altogether

I know this is GW, and one should never underestimate their ability to cash grab, but aren't all of the 6th Ed Codices effectively the 7th Ed ones as well? As in, Eldar already, technically, have their 7th Ed Codex? Which means Serpent Spam isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Which blows goats for bus fare. But for GW, having people buying Wave Serpents in droves must be pretty good, since they are $45 USD a pop. So I doubt that even if Eldar get a Codex update that Spam is going to get fixed.

Nah they'll just switch it to another skimmer, it was holofalcons back in 4th that were OP, then 6th goes Wave Serpents.

Kelly will just find a new way to make his favorite faction OP.

Well considering Dark Eldar are battle brothers look forward to the combined mix of Dark Eldar and Eldar.

Invisible Beast Packs and Deep Striking no Scatter Fire Dragons come to mind.

Hollismason wrote:
Well considering Dark Eldar are battle brothers look forward to the combined mix of Dark Eldar and Eldar.

Invisible Beast Packs and Deep Striking no Scatter Fire Dragons come to mind.

.......beast pack got nerfed, no one is going to be running beast pack deathstar anymore. Also why the hell would I waste a no scatter deep strike on fire dragons? The entire squad would be T3 with nothing to protect them, I can suicide fire dragons already with a wave serpent. If your going to cry about the WWP at least pick something more remarkable like a full squad of wraithguard with 5 spirit seers and a farseer. Still a giant waste of points but w/e.

Frankly I think Wraithknights are also part of the problem. Namely because its T8. With a toughness that high it basically is av12 and is immune to most anti infantry weapons. You basically have to fight it like its a vehicle

Except it ignores vehicle damage like shaken and immobilization, can't get one shot without a special rule, has 6"HP"s, moves 12 and ignores terrain, can punch crap in the face with S10 ap2 at i5.

The wraithknight is basically a super-heavy walker in every way except officially. And it also gets a 3+ armor save on top of that. Having to deal with that and wave serpant spam is extremely difficult without just tailoring for it.

How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?

Half the wounds, weaker weapons, fewer attacks, and half the speed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?

raped by grav centurions in 1 round of shooting. Alternately, 3 Lascannon HWSs can take it out in 2 turns of shooting. Without primaris psykers guiding them or benefiting from any orders, that is. EDIT: thought you meant Wraithknights, which I based this reply on

I find Riptides, despite -2T, with their 2+/3++ AND Stim Injectors far more infuriating.

It's a Wraithknight pretty much just cut in half. yeah.

I'm referring more to the conceptual dislike of a high T monstrous creature.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?

Wraithlords are fine - it's not the Wraithknights Toughness I have a problem with, it's that Toughness in addition to the mobility it has.

@OP Just the Wave Serpent that gives so much durability and firepower whilst being undercosted. As others had said, everything else is powerful but manageable but having a AV12/12/10 Skimmer with an Ignore Cover weapon that can't actually be destroyed (but can get Twin-Linked all the same) as well as reducing penetrating hits to glancing hits, is not ok and a massive design flaw by GW (are we really surprised by this?)

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?

The speed is what stops wraith lords from being a problem. I can actually use tactics like tarpits and speed bumps to deal with it. With the WK I can't use tactics like that so I have to actually kill it which is when the 6Ws becomes an issue.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As in, Eldar already, technically, have their 7th Ed Codex?

At this stage we don't really know. GW used to have an ~5 year release cycle for codices and ~4 years for core rules, so if your codex came out at the end of the previous edition, you probably wouldn't get a new codex until the start of the next edition.

But now GW have halved the release time between codices and 7th edition has halved the time for new core rules. Once Necrons and BA come out, that'll be the last 2 5th ed codices and we're not sure where GW will go from there.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How do you feel about the Wraithlord's T8 3+ sv?

Wraith lords are meh. Too slow and too less damage output.
Use it to hold a flank. Dual flamers are decent to take on out flankers.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
As in, Eldar already, technically, have their 7th Ed Codex?

At this stage we don't really know. GW used to have an ~5 year release cycle for codices and ~4 years for core rules, so if your codex came out at the end of the previous edition, you probably wouldn't get a new codex until the start of the next edition.

But now GW have halved the release time between codices and 7th edition has halved the time for new core rules. Once Necrons and BA come out, that'll be the last 2 5th ed codices and we're not sure where GW will go from there.

I am looking forward to 2015 with anticipation and curiosity, but mostly dread.

Not in a snowball's chance in hell am I going to replace my €39 hardcover full colour codexes anytime soon.

However, given this very fact, and:

1) the new 7th ed codexes having the same front cover style and format (despite different internal layout)

2) none of the new 7th ed codexes really adding anything radically new to armies, but rather removing stuff

I'm guessing GW arent going to update the 6th ones till 8th edition rolls out and codexes look wholly different.

Because if they do, I think they're doomed. Because you can't expect Eldar, Tau, SM and Chaos Daemon players to willingly pay money to update their still useful and playable codexes just because GW demands it. Especially if the only things that are going to change is more streamlining, more removal of "unnecessary stuff" and artwork replaced by pwetty miniature pictures. CSM and DA players? Maybe

I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.

The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.

They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.

In my opinion, that does not make the Wave Serpents OverPowered, just disruptive annoying combo-breaking little bastards.

One of the main reasons the Wave Serpent is such a "problem" is that it's a unit that can be taken x9 in a standard CAD.
Playing unbound completely removes the edge the WS confers to the Eldar.

Yes it's still a very good unit, but at 210 points standard with a 5-pack of gakky Dire Avengers, it's no match for 165 points Necron flyers with 5 Necron warriors, or 90 point AB's or many other units in the game.

morgoth wrote:
The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.

They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.

Yes. Clearly every single 40K player just hasn't taken any counters for one of the most meta defining units in the game. No one has bothered to try adapting to deal with Wave Serpants for over a year because it makes their lists better.

>end_sarcasm

morgoth wrote:
I think mostly every army has a good way to deal with Wave Serpents efficiently.

The issue is that the people who play those armies refuse to adapt to Wave Serpents.

They prefer to keep their (very good) lists that kill anything else, yet could not handle Wave Serpents.

In my opinion, that does not make the Wave Serpents OverPowered, just disruptive annoying combo-breaking little bastards.

One of the main reasons the Wave Serpent is such a "problem" is that it's a unit that can be taken x9 in a standard CAD.
Playing unbound completely removes the edge the WS confers to the Eldar.

Yes it's still a very good unit, but at 210 points standard with a 5-pack of gakky Dire Avengers, it's no match for 165 points Necron flyers with 5 Necron warriors, or 90 point AB's or many other units in the game.

So powerful the entire 40k meta has to shift around it = Not over powered.
Seems legit.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Yes. Clearly every single 40K player just hasn't taken any counters for one of the most meta defining units in the game. No one has bothered to try adapting to deal with Wave Serpants for over a year because it makes their lists better.

>end_sarcasm

The majority of whiners have not yet taken counters to IK, WK or WS.

So far, there have been zero major tournaments where Dark Eldar alliances or CAD+allies were not a defining factor (even though Kopach won NOVA without that, it was because his opponent hit the low probability that he would get none of his good spells).

Show me a Demon or Necron list optimized to nuke Wave Serpents, and tell me how it could really fail at it, and then maybe you'll have a point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So powerful the entire 40k meta has to shift around it = Not over powered.
Seems legit.

The entire meta revolved around something else before, which wasn't OP either.
A shift in meta does not imply anything OP.
OP could be used to describe something that lacks efficient counters.
As long as counters are available in the game (and there are lots), calling something OP is just silly.

Of course a list that is optomized to kill WS will kill WS - thats what it is optomized to do. However it then leave it lacking against most other competitive lists. Whereas the WS list will be good against everything except the one list that is optomized to beat it.
Also note that you said deamons and necrons... not anything away from top tier. If any codex outside top tier really struggles to deal with it - it is overpowered (not writing it short hand as I think we may be forgetting what it stands for).