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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.

And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.

There are plenty of units that do better than 5 DA + 1 WS for 210 points.

In the end, the Wave Serpent is fine, it's just CAD restrictions that are more and more out of place.

What I've gathered from the thread is that Eldar overall aren't OP except Wave Serpents.

Is this right or wrong?

pm713 wrote:
What I've gathered from the thread is that Eldar overall aren't OP except Wave Serpents.

Is this right or wrong?

With the addition of basic troops with rending weapons and jetbikes that are much too cheap and also confer a 3+ save for some reason that's pretty much it.

Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.

pm713 wrote:
Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.

It's essentially a rending turbo boosting marine, who can claim victory points every single round because of its mobility. It has objective secured, no reason to have BS 4 all of the sudden, no reason to have 3+ save and also has the ability to jink, if shot with low ap weapons. It's not really the fact that it does all those thing, but the fact that it sits in the troop selection and gets objective secured, sorta like the same issue with Wave Serpent. I'd have no problem with the unit, if it was in fast attack.

pm713 wrote:
Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.

This post summed up why the Eldar Jetbike doesn't follow a consistent design philosophy (Much like many of the balance issues in the game really)

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Besides the Wave Serpent, I personally have an issue with the Guardian Jetbike. Why is it so strong for the price it pays? It's a troop unit, has Eldar Jetbike rules, and gives 3+ armor for no apparent reason. Compare to other bike units, and most follow a pattern-

Space Marine biker- Grants Bike, +1T, twinlinked bolter for +7 points over a Tactical marine. Fast Attack unless you take a unit of 5 and a CM/Captain on a bike.

Ork Biker- Grants Bike, +1T, TL Dakkagun, and 4+ 'Eavy armor for +12 points over an ork boy (who can buy 'eavy armor for 4 points, so call it +8 for the bike). FA only.

DE Reaver Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, Single linked Splinter rifle, 5+ Armor, Bladevanes, for +6 points over a Wych, or +8 points over a warrior. FA only.

Guardian Jetbike- Grants Eldar Jetbike, +1T, TL Shuricat, 3+ armor, for 8 points over a guardian. Troops by default.

Where is the 3+ armor coming from? They clearly aren't paying the points for it. Orks get a bump ffrom 6+ to 4+, and that increase is built into the cost of the bikers. Marines start with 3+ and stay 3+. Dark Eldar start with 6+, and go up to 5+, but they are hybrid Warriors/Wyches when it comes to armor and wargear. But Windrider Jetbikes start with 5+ mesh armor, and somehow the bike gives them 3+ for free?

It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.

morgoth wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.

And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.

There are plenty of units that do better than 5 DA + 1 WS for 210 points.

Please list them and try to actually consider the various and OP advantages of the unit you are comparing to. (for once)..

pm713 wrote:
Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.

It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:

Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP
Jetbike is OP

Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.

morgoth wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.

It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:

Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP
Jetbike is OP

Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.

Or the Eldar are underpowered, Wave Serpents are rubbish nonsense that this guy spouts

pm713 wrote:
It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.

Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.

To answer your previous question, other than the Wave Serpent being OP. For the rest of eldar its a combination of a bunch of really great smaller rules like the example above and many others. Swooping hawks don't scatter and can go to and from reserve at will. Warp Spiders can a 24 inch total a turn and still shoot an assault 2 str 6 weapon. Jetbikes that are comparable to marine versions while still being significantly cheaper. Best psy powers in the game. The list goes on and on. One or two by themselves is not a big deal. But all together you should begin to see why it is the most powerful codex right now.

morgoth wrote:


I'm sorry, did I miss the 50+ threads screaming StormGunship OP ?
Thought so.

Thats your response? Look Morgoth, I am unsure why you want anyone to think that just because Wave Spam CAN be defeated (and i built at least two of my armies, Chaos and Dark Eldar, to be very effective at it) does not change the fact that it is enormously effective and I guess i just remember all the Blood angels in 5E who wanted me to agree with them that they werent powerful either. Gimme a break. I'd be less annoyed by them if the guys using them would just stop protesting so much and say "Yeah...they are good, arent they?" and moved on.

People DO over react a lot as a rule anyways in the gamerz circles. I'm not saying that there hasnt been on occassion legitimate reason to raise an eyebrow. But the Serpent Shield not only makes no sense as its written now, but is the ONLY reason the Eldar codex is considered in this way. Its as obvious as the nose on your face.

nedTCM wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.

Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.

The bike can't do that. No jetbikes can.

But I do see the point in the rest of the post.

nedTCM wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.

Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.

To answer your previous question, other than the Wave Serpent being OP. For the rest of eldar its a combination of a bunch of really great smaller rules like the example above and many others. Swooping hawks don't scatter and can go to and from reserve at will. Warp Spiders can a 24 inch total a turn and still shoot an assault 2 str 6 weapon. Jetbikes that are comparable to marine versions while still being significantly cheaper. Best psy powers in the game. The list goes on and on. One or two by themselves is not a big deal. But all together you should begin to see why it is the most powerful codex right now.

The reason people even whine about Eldar is that they had a good dominating run.
That run was mostly Seerstar and BeastStar until the end of 6th (at which point they were tied in K/D against Daemons, Necrons, Tau and Space Marines), and mostly BeastStar until the new DE codex.
It's not even clear yet if the Eldar are going to remain top dog, and that's in a meta where the other armies do not even tailor to handle Eldar specifically but instead focus on their own combos.

That's all the facts there are about "Eldar OP", so whatever you read in the units is probably not as relevant as you think it is.


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 Jancoran wrote:

morgoth wrote:


I'm sorry, did I miss the 50+ threads screaming StormGunship OP ?
Thought so.

Thats your response? Look Morgoth, I am unsure why you want anyone to think that just because Wave Spam CAN be defeated (and i built at least two of my armies, Chaos and Dark Eldar, to be very effective at it) does not change the fact that it is enormously effective and I guess i just remember all the Blood angels in 5E who wanted me to agree with them that they werent powerful either. Gimme a break. I'd be less annoyed by them if the guys using them would just stop protesting so much and say "Yeah...they are good, arent they?" and moved on.

People DO over react a lot as a rule anyways in the gamerz circles. I'm not saying that there hasnt been on occassion legitimate reason to raise an eyebrow. But the Serpent Shield not only makes no sense as its written now, but is the ONLY reason the Eldar codex is considered in this way. Its as obvious as the nose on your face.

As written quite a few times already, the only reason there's even this whole "eldar op" mentality is that a few combos messed up the competitive scene between Codex Eldar and Codex Dark Eldar.
No matter what you think about Wave Serpents, during all that time, they were nothing more than a support unit to a Deathstar core.

Wave Serpents are good.
Anyone calling them OP is clearly ignoring the power level of many other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

nedTCM wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.

Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.

The bike can't do that. No jetbikes can.

But I do see the point in the rest of the post.

The jetbike can, windriders have battle focus. You can move 12", run w/o fleet, shoot and then 2d6" move in assault. OR preferably, move 12", shoot, run away, run some more away.
Either way, that's irrelevant since those Windriders MSU can basically just snag objectives that are away from the center, and on a standard table, that'll be about the same range as any bike with flat out can manage. - about - . sometimes the Eldar +36" will pay off and yes that's real nice. But you can't call jetbikes OP just because sometimes in some missions, they happen to have a use.
If they had another use than just snagging objectives, I'd say they're incredibly good in Maelstrom, but they just don't cut it for anything else but that.

pm713 wrote:

nedTCM wrote:

pm713 wrote:
It also has 12" guns so can't do that much and really isn't that tough.

Eldar's high mobility from move run then shoot, increases that range to 18 inches. That means if any other unit can shoot an Eldar one, then the next turn eldar can fire back with an assault 2 weapon.

The bike can't do that. No jetbikes can.

But I do see the point in the rest of the post.

I misread, I though you were talking about Eldar guns in general. However, the Jetbike can do 12 inches without turbo boosting. So the point still stands. Their weapons effective range is 24 inches for two shots. That negates range advantage for most regular units including regular marines.

Some say it's the Eldar's turn to be top dog. I disagree with the notion that there should even be a top dog.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Some say it's the Eldar's turn to be top dog. I disagree with the notion that there should even be a top dog.

It is interesting that the history of the game has engendered an acceptance of such army rankings. I think Eldar has had more than enough time as one of the top armies. There have not been many times where they aren't near the top in terms of relative power.

I still refuse to agree WS are not OP. Considering I play a good bit of AV13, a WS can kill my vehicles with more ease than a Space Marine Devastator squad. There is obviously something wrong there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Some say it's the Eldar's turn to be top dog. I disagree with the notion that there should even be a top dog.

This. A Thousand times this!^

morgoth wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not sure that I'd say that that is the "real" issue, but it's part of it. Lower either the survivability or the firepower of the Wave Serpent, and maybe even lower the points cost of the model somewhat if it makes a big enough difference, and then it's fine.

And like I said, Stormravens are pretty good, but FOC is not their only drawback. You can't forget the cost, movement limitations and that they're probably only going to be on the board for half the game if they don't want to get shot down.

There are plenty of units that do better than 5 DA + 1 WS for 210 points.

In the end, the Wave Serpent is fine, it's just CAD restrictions that are more and more out of place.

I dunno about that, you could get a better unit if you'd spend less points spamming transports and more on the things inside of them. Sure, your army won't be as OP/spammy, but at least it will be funner.

As for FOC, it isn't helping matters any, but it's not the sole problem with WS.

pm713 wrote:
Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.

They're not OP per se, they're just too good for their cheap cost. They could do with a points bump or some slight toning down.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Some say it's the Eldar's turn to be top dog. I disagree with the notion that there should even be a top dog.

They were in 4th ed. Harlequin leap-frog of death ftw.

morgoth wrote:

Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.

ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/616824.page#7247272

That's how you beat serpents with scarabs. You ain't playing 500 pts vs 1850, right?

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.

ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.

Who would call the common rhino op!? He's still deflecting so hard, I mean he's already agreed they are in the spotlight and he wants them to be that way.

 koooaei wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/616824.page#7247272

That's how you beat serpents with scarabs. You ain't playing 500 pts vs 1850, right?

I would never use Scarabs. One round of shooting from one WS would kill them all. Naaaaaaaaah mayne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.

ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.

Who would call the common rhino op!? He's still deflecting so hard, I mean he's already agreed they are in the spotlight and he wants them to be that way.

I mena, I dunno man, Rhino's are pretty ballin right now. They give my Necrons such a hard time, and when I see like, 4 of them on the board, man I know it's gonna be an uphill battle.

Don't underestimate the Rhino.

Fight. But! Fight only if ye be men of valor! For the SPEHSS MEHREENS within are guarded by a model so foul, so cruel, that no man yet has fought with it... and lived! BONES of full fifty men lie *strewn* about its hull! So! Brave knights! If you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy treads!!!

Looks it is as simple as looking at tournaments.

If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.

It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.

Quickjager wrote:
Looks it is as simple as looking at tournaments.

If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.

It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.

If that sort of logic was going to do it for Morgoth, we wouldn't have spent the last 5 or 6 pages arguing with him, unfortunately. He seems to think that the only competitive Eldar lists were Spiritseers and Beastpack.

Out of curiosity, what sorts of lists do you run into in your meta which make you think that WS are reasonable, Morgoth? Since you say that people are failing to adapt to them.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I still refuse to agree WS are not OP. Considering I play a good bit of AV13, a WS can kill my vehicles with more ease than a Space Marine Devastator squad. There is obviously something wrong there.

But you play Necron, most of your AV13 is very good to begin with.

A WS can kill your vehicles with ease ??? it does 4.5 S7 shots per turn, it needs 4 glances on a Ghost Ark, 24 hits, about 30 shots.
A single Wave Serpent could not even kill it within a 6-turn game !

A Space Marine Devastator squad will do one pen on T1, and then blast you away on AV11 right after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

I dunno about that, you could get a better unit if you'd spend less points spamming transports and more on the things inside of them. Sure, your army won't be as OP/spammy, but at least it will be funner.

Yes, it will be measurably funner I'm sure.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
Looks it is as simple as looking at tournaments.

If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.

It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.

If that sort of logic was going to do it for Morgoth, we wouldn't have spent the last 5 or 6 pages arguing with him, unfortunately. He seems to think that the only competitive Eldar lists were Spiritseers and Beastpack.

Out of curiosity, what sorts of lists do you run into in your meta which make you think that WS are reasonable, Morgoth? Since you say that people are failing to adapt to them.

I'm also curious about his meta. What is he regularly playing that can handle WS spam so easily?

 krodarklorr wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.

ATSKNF is obnoxious as it is, yes, but that's not why we're here. Krak grenades and squad options? I'm sorry, you can have a squad leader that has an at Init Powerfist and can be BS5 with a rending pistol. And you don't NEED squad options, because each of your units have a different role and they sure as hell do that role well. And 24" bolters? You have 18" two-shot rending weapons, and can run and shoot. It negates that entirely. Rhinos, well the Serpent Shield can sit comfortably 60' away and kill Rhino's like it's nothing.

12" weapons that are NOT rending, pseudo-rending against squishies, useless against armor.

Rhinos ? they're upfield anyway.
Serpent Shield ? without the TL (i.e. within 34") it's pointless.
Rhinos are nothing, you can kill them with heavy bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/616824.page#7247272

That's how you beat serpents with scarabs. You ain't playing 500 pts vs 1850, right?

That list is horrible.
Your 10 Scarabs will take exactly 10 S6/7 (ID) wounds to get rid off, it's not a good counter to Wave Serpents at all.
With the 5+ save, that's 15 S6/7 shots, i.e. two Wave Serpents for one turn.

At most the scarabs can be bait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
Looks it is as simple as looking at tournaments.

If Wave Serpents are not overperforming why is it, they are the mainstay of 90% of all Eldar army? According to logic if they aren't good as morgoth seems to "believe", then they would not be seen in tournaments as there are better choices.

It is as simple as that, if they were not good they wouldn't be taken regularly, the reason they are is because they give more versatility than a ordinary TAC list.

They are the support of 90% of all Eldar competitive lists, because they are good. Unlike a lot of things in the codex, so of course not many alternatives there.
They provide AA when the whole codex does not have a single acceptable option. We have a flyer that costs 150 points and is AV10/10/10. Yes that's right, for the price of a Night Scythe and a Necron warrior squad, we get a paper plane with meh damage output.
They provide volume of fire when the other options are way too squishy. War Walkers just don't last 6 turns.
They are there by default when you need Fire Dragons. The only elite even worth considering, the only option for melta, totally useless without Wave Serpents of course.

But the fact remains, WS are never the core, the core has always been something else and will always be, the WS alone are no good.

If WS were *that* good, competitive players would just take 7-8 and be done with it. No more WK, no more deathstars, no more Warp Spiders, because the WS does it all.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:


Out of curiosity, what sorts of lists do you run into in your meta which make you think that WS are reasonable, Morgoth? Since you say that people are failing to adapt to them.

Instead, let's stick to a more general discussion: show me a tournament list that was written with WS in mind.