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krodarklorr wrote: I still refuse to agree WS are not OP. Considering I play a good bit of AV13, a WS can kill my vehicles with more ease than a Space Marine Devastator squad. There is obviously something wrong there.
But you play Necron, most of your AV13 is very good to begin with.
A WS can kill your vehicles with ease ??? it does 4.5 S7 shots per turn, it needs 4 glances on a Ghost Ark, 24 hits, about 30 shots.
A single Wave Serpent could not even kill it within a 6-turn game !
A Space Marine Devastator squad will do one pen on T1, and then blast you away on AV11 right after.
I've seen it happen. My friend has fired 2 devastator squads at my Ghost Arks for numerous turns in a row and didn't do that much damage, whereas in a single 2000 point game, 3 wave serpents took out both a-barges, a ghost ark, and half of my other ghost ark.
I've seen it happen. My friend has fired 2 devastator squads at my Ghost Arks for numerous turns in a row and didn't do that much damage, whereas in a single 2000 point game, 3 wave serpents took out both a-barges, a ghost ark, and half of my other ghost ark.
Yes, well, my Space Wolf friend, always takes about 2-3 Lascan shots to explodes one of my Wave Serpents, and I always miss the 3+ cover save.
Things like that happen, but it's mostly luck.
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:
Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP Jetbike is OP
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
This right here is where it is at.
First, assume that the shuriken rule = rending (it doesn't it doesn't touch AV11 no matter how many sixes get rolled). Also, assume Eldar players always roll 6's for wounding and that they always roll 6's for battle focus run moves.
SM bikes are troops with the biker captain. For 4 points a model more they get +1T, +1S, twinlinked 24" guns and can take 3 special guns on a 5 man squad, including grav, melta and plasma options. And a power weapon. Or fist. And a melta bomb and maybe a storm shield or three on the command version. Plus krak grenades, ATSKNF, chapter tactics, etc. Or and they can bring an attack bike (Vyper) free of fast restrictions. And combat squad.
Boo hoo, they can only move 24" instead of 48". The table I play on is 6x4 and generally we're starting 24" apart. 90% of the time there isn't going to be a difference between 24 and 10,000" movement. If you want to complain that jetbikes will fly all across the board to capture the objective, don't leave an objective unguarded and then assault them. In CC and shooting they die like a 3 man tactical marine squad in cover, without a chance at a power weapon or fist or meltabomb. If you can't kill 3 tacticals in close combat, or shooting, your list is fail. Meanwhile, over in Codex Space Marines 105 points gets you a drop pod and a five man squad with the option to take oodles of weapons. Toss in a melta gun, a melta bomb on the sarge, a combi melta and a DWML for the pod and you're sitting at 145 points for 5 T4 3+ bodies, 3 HP on AV 12, 2 melta shots in t1, and a S5 pie plate that will wound any footdar on a 2+.
870 points of SM = 12 OS units, 6 pie plates of dead footdar, 6 units firing melta+6 krak grenades on T1, plus 6 combi melta (or 12 combi plasma) shots on demand. Throw another 70 points a squad and you've got another 6 krak grenades, 18 units in the enemy DZ on T1 (presumably your sternguard/ironclads/TFC pods will drop in T2). You can even drop empty pods and spend 90 points more to pick up 6 plasma cannons or lascannons and camp the backfield. Sure you'll give up kill points in some games, but if your objection is Maelstrom objectives, that's not the issue, is it?
And wave serpents... The reason the Eldar only take Wave Serpents as transports is because the only dedicated transport option they have is Wave Serpents. Give them 35 point drop pod web way portals and they'll go away. The wave serpent is a droneless Devilfish that pays an extra 80 points for a randomized pair of autocannon equivalent that swaps AP4 for AP- and ignore cover. It's a rhino priced as if it had a triple lascannon predator strapped to the roof, but without the 48" range or the AP with half the hull points. Three serpents (pre troop "tax") is the same price as a pair of landraiders, and drop pod or two depending on how many goodies you bought for them.
If the serpent were truly OP, you'd never see jet bikes, wk, fd, or the seerstar (if that's still a thing) in an Eldar list. The most broken thing about Eldar is the Invisibility spell, and that's about Invisibility and not Eldar. Necron AB's are worse, Necron flyers are worse, Necron kill anything on a 6 guns, including tanks, are worse. The Aegis Quad gun single handedly made the Eldar (and every other) AV10 all around flyers useless, much less the Tau Interceptor options. And the quad gun is still optimized at full BS against skimmers like the serpent, so it's hardly a waste of points against skimmer armies.
on hammerheads vs wraithknights: wraithknights are monstrous creatures and this edition favours them immensely over vehicles. Sure they cost two times as much, but put out twice the firepower, can leap about the place, have t8 (8!!!) which means a multi melta that could one a hammerhead with ease needs to do 6 4+ wounds to put down a wraithknight. Plus the knight dominates in cc, something a tank can never do
pm713 wrote: Do explain how rending (not that great) and T4 3+ with 12" guns is OP.
I really don't see how a jetbike is OP.
It's really simple. Just follow the thought pattern of the "Eldar OP" crowd:
Jetbike is Eldar
Eldar is OP Jetbike is OP
Ignore ATSKNF, krak grenades, 24" bolters, squad options, rhinos, pods, just about anything the marines have that the jetbikes do not, and you'll see their point rather clearly.
This right here is where it is at.
First, assume that the shuriken rule = rending (it doesn't it doesn't touch AV11 no matter how many sixes get rolled). Also, assume Eldar players always roll 6's for wounding and that they always roll 6's for battle focus run moves.
SM bikes are troops with the biker captain. For 4 points a model more they get +1T, +1S, twinlinked 24" guns and can take 3 special guns on a 5 man squad, including grav, melta and plasma options. And a power weapon. Or fist. And a melta bomb and maybe a storm shield or three on the command version. Plus krak grenades, ATSKNF, chapter tactics, etc. Or and they can bring an attack bike (Vyper) free of fast restrictions. And combat squad.
Boo hoo, they can only move 24" instead of 48". The table I play on is 6x4 and generally we're starting 24" apart. 90% of the time there isn't going to be a difference between 24 and 10,000" movement. If you want to complain that jetbikes will fly all across the board to capture the objective, don't leave an objective unguarded and then assault them. In CC and shooting they die like a 3 man tactical marine squad in cover, without a chance at a power weapon or fist or meltabomb. If you can't kill 3 tacticals in close combat, or shooting, your list is fail. Meanwhile, over in Codex Space Marines 105 points gets you a drop pod and a five man squad with the option to take oodles of weapons. Toss in a melta gun, a melta bomb on the sarge, a combi melta and a DWML for the pod and you're sitting at 145 points for 5 T4 3+ bodies, 3 HP on AV 12, 2 melta shots in t1, and a S5 pie plate that will wound any footdar on a 2+.
870 points of SM = 12 OS units, 6 pie plates of dead footdar, 6 units firing melta+6 krak grenades on T1, plus 6 combi melta (or 12 combi plasma) shots on demand. Throw another 70 points a squad and you've got another 6 krak grenades, 18 units in the enemy DZ on T1 (presumably your sternguard/ironclads/TFC pods will drop in T2). You can even drop empty pods and spend 90 points more to pick up 6 plasma cannons or lascannons and camp the backfield. Sure you'll give up kill points in some games, but if your objection is Maelstrom objectives, that's not the issue, is it?
And wave serpents... The reason the Eldar only take Wave Serpents as transports is because the only dedicated transport option they have is Wave Serpents. Give them 35 point drop pod web way portals and they'll go away. The wave serpent is a droneless Devilfish that pays an extra 80 points for a randomized pair of autocannon equivalent that swaps AP4 for AP- and ignore cover. It's a rhino priced as if it had a triple lascannon predator strapped to the roof, but without the 48" range or the AP with half the hull points. Three serpents (pre troop "tax") is the same price as a pair of landraiders, and drop pod or two depending on how many goodies you bought for them.
If the serpent were truly OP, you'd never see jet bikes, wk, fd, or the seerstar (if that's still a thing) in an Eldar list. The most broken thing about Eldar is the Invisibility spell, and that's about Invisibility and not Eldar. Necron AB's are worse, Necron flyers are worse, Necron kill anything on a 6 guns, including tanks, are worse. The Aegis Quad gun single handedly made the Eldar (and every other) AV10 all around flyers useless, much less the Tau Interceptor options. And the quad gun is still optimized at full BS against skimmers like the serpent, so it's hardly a waste of points against skimmer armies.
In short, haters gonna hate.
Wow.
So in conclusion, Tournament Eldar builds everywhere aren't fielding the Wave Serpent for their power it's just that the 5 man DA squads (Who seldom disembark) only get the lacklustre option of one of the best main battle tanks in the game as a DT.
Judging by your post Eldar players must be beside themselves waiting for a new book to right the injustices delivered upon them by their 6th edition codex. The inequity between their options and 5 man tacs in Drop Pods is downright criminal.
I hope they can keep their chins up until they get their much deserved buffs in their 7th book.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
pax_imperialis wrote: on hammerheads vs wraithknights: wraithknights are monstrous creatures and this edition favours them immensely over vehicles. Sure they cost two times as much, but put out twice the firepower, can leap about the place, have t8 (8!!!) which means a multi melta that could one a hammerhead with ease needs to do 6 4+ wounds to put down a wraithknight. Plus the knight dominates in cc, something a tank can never do
This edition favors vehicles over monstrous creatures.
The WK is just nothing like a Hammerhead - at all. It's kind of the worst comparison ever.
If you want vehicle to MC comparisons, you should try with IK / NDK.
So in conclusion, Tournament Eldar builds everywhere aren't fielding the Wave Serpent for their power it's just that the 5 man DA squads (Who seldom disembark) only get the lacklustre option of one of the best main battle tanks in the game as a DT.
Judging by your post Eldar players must be beside themselves waiting for a new book to right the injustices delivered upon them by their 6th edition codex. The inequity between their options and 5 man tacs in Drop Pods is downright criminal.
I hope they can keep their chins up until they get their much deserved buffs in their 7th book.
Way to strawman. All the internets to you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 07:07:21
Bolg da Goff wrote: Are you serious? MCs are vastly superior to Vehicles in almost every conceivable way.
Comparing a SUPERHEAVY VEHICLE to a regular MC is completely inappropriate.
Walkers are a very strange brand of vehicle though, you can only hit their front armor, and for many targets, it's a lot harder to pierce AV12-13 (S6-7+) front than it is to wound T8 (S5+).
Other than that, yes vehicles are a lot squishier than MCs in close combat, they're not "vastly inferior" because of it.
But the fact remains, WS are never the core, the core has always been something else and will always be, the WS alone are no good.
If WS were *that* good, competitive players would just take 7-8 and be done with it. No more WK, no more deathstars, no more Warp Spiders, because the WS does it all.
Boneville wrote: well its obvious that that list was designed around the swooping hawks.
The ws are there because you need some anti-air somehow,right?
The original comment that is being referred to implied non-Eldar list tailored / adapted to handle Wave Serpents.
Every single list in all tournament that isn't comp'ed to restrict Wave Serpents. Many lists and units are invalided by the sole existence of Wave Serpents. Pure DE armies with Raiders and Venoms was unplayable in 6th, alone because of Wave Serpents. Land Speeders aren't even considered in tournament lists, even though they have point efficient dakka. The existence of Wave Serpents (and Tau to some degree) invalidates anything about the Land Speeder. Reaver Jetbikes are were good as long as they kept their distance from flamers with their good jinks, oh wait, Wave Serpents, nvm.
The entire meta is shaped around the Wave Serpents and claiming otherwise is absurd.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/08 11:06:36
I think this conversation should be split. Let's leave this thread to are/aren't Wave Serpents OP, and I'll start a new thread to discuss the rest of the 'Dex under the assumption that the Serpent is handled.
Is the wave serpent worth more than its points?
The answer is a resounding 'yes.'
If they're worth more than their points, then they're OP. The question is, by how much?
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
MWHistorian wrote: Is the wave serpent worth more than its points?
The answer is a resounding 'yes.'
If they're worth more than their points, then they're OP. The question is, by how much?
I'll disagree, unless you want to claim the 2 nightspinners he also had were OP too, in which case I'll just laugh.
I do appreciate the "by how much" points question though.
A Devil fish is the closest DT equivalent (12/11/10). It is 80 points, minus drone cost ~56 points - 76 with move through cover and +1 cover. The Serpent gets +1BS, +1 side AV and Fast for 145 (base, holofields, move through cover). The Fish comes with an 18" 4 shot S5 gun stock, the serpent a 2 shot S4 12" one. A 69 point delta.
The DF can take a couple of seeker missles if it wants and the SMS which is arguably a lot better than the shuricannon. The drones can also screen the DF vs an assault and provide some bubble wrap after T1, an option the Serpent doesn't get. The fish can do it's thing as mobile terrain while the 30" gun troops shoot into the Eldar DZ from inside the Tau DZ. The Eldar have 12" guns, 18" on the 13 point T3 4+ guys.
The Serpent gets the shield.
So the question is, how much is the shield worth on an AV 12/12/10 vehicle?
While shooting, it's about as good as a pair of autocannons. ~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
That leaves the defensive ability priced at 39 points and the use of those 2 autocannons. Lets take half the AC cost since we'll assume it fires half the time and shields half the time. That means the shield downgrading pens to glances is costing 54 points...
But wait, what about the +1 BS, +1 side AV and Fast? Let's call those a generous ten points a piece. The ability to downgrade a pen to a glance (on a 2+, not always) is costing the Eldar player at least 24 points. Would you buy that for a devil fish? I wouldn't. Not on a drop pod or rhino either, nor a razor back. Because you still lose the damn hull point and get glanced to death. I'll get more use out of 2 rhinos and 2 pods than you will out of serpent. You'll get an advantage in pure kill point games, but I'll rock everything else and if your serpent is near enough to an objective to OS it, my krak grenades will greet that AV10 rear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 17:06:20
Eldar player here, the Wave Serpent is definately OP.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning is just over the top good.
If every non-eldar player is complaining you have to ask yourself if there might be something to it...
It would have been semi-allright as a restricted 3 in a heavy support or FA slot, but the ability to take upto 6 makes it OP and unfun.
It would have been semi-allright if it wasn't ignoring cover.
It would have been semi-allright if it's range would have been 24" or less.
It's so obvious! How could we all have been so myopic?!
Guys, I have it, and with this one piece of info, the last however many pages of this thread will suddenly become clear!
Morgoth plays Serpent spam and still can't win!
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I disagree with MWHistorian's reasoning, but I also disagree with RAWRAIrobblerobble's counter-argument. In theory, it that might seem like a sound analysis, but it's viewing each upgrade in a vacuum. Whether or not the Wave Serpent is appropriately costed, I don't think it adequately shows how good it is.
For example, twin-linked as a rule is fine and dandy, but it's far more valuable on a Lascannon compared to, say, a Bolter. Also consider that as additional rules and upgrades get stacked together, their usefulness increases exponentially. You can see this in Proposed Rules all the time when people throw down their custom Chapter Masters with S5 T5 W5 A5 3++ EW and a S10 AP2 weapon. They'll insist "but I paid the points for the upgrades!!!" Maybe they even did, going through what all of those things were worth and then adding them up... it doesn't change that that character's rules basically guarantee that they'll roflstomp anything and never die - they're ridiculously reliable, and outside of their cost there's no real reason not to take them.
Obviously Wave Serpents aren't quite that bad, but it's the same sort of principle. Devilfish have an average speed, have mediocre firepower and aren't too difficult to put down, but can get their occupants to their destination if necessary (which it usually isn't - Tau generally like to hang back so having a transport isn't a priority for many Tau armies). Compare this to the Wave Serpent which is fast, has very good firepower, is difficult to put down and is actually necessary as transport. Adding points to the Wave Serpent isn't really necessary in my opinion, the primary problem is that it's just too versatile and reliable. Nerf either its firepower, speed or reliability and then readjust the points depending on the severity of the nerf and then the tank is fine. Right now though, it's conceptually at a point which is "too good" to be fair.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
I'd buy it, would make some nice CSM rhino razorbacks.
Of course it would be Imperium only because CSM doesn't innovate or have epic old age technology.
~4 S7 shots, but with ignore cover instead of any AP. How much would you pay for an autocannon on a rhino? Let's start at 30 points for a pair.
A pair of 60" , AC are 48" range, ignore cover pining weapons autocannons ,that can be turned in to a no pen shield and help against alfa strikes,
if you don't get first turn. for 30pts? a str 6 powerfist on t3 dude costs 25pts in my codex.
I'd buy it, would make some nice CSM rhino razorbacks.
Of course it would be Imperium only because CSM doesn't innovate or have epic old age technology.
Of course you don't. You also throw away all your land raiders that isn't godhammer and all your devastators instantly drops their plasma cannons and picks up the mysterious auto cannon that they had a secret crush on since they were young loyalists!
Nivoglibina wrote: Eldar player here, the Wave Serpent is definately OP.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning is just over the top good.
If every non-eldar player is complaining you have to ask yourself if there might be something to it...
It would have been semi-allright as a restricted 3 in a heavy support or FA slot, but the ability to take upto 6 makes it OP and unfun.
It would have been semi-allright if it wasn't ignoring cover.
It would have been semi-allright if it's range would have been 24" or less.
Saying that you're an Eldar player doesn't change anything you know.
60" twin-linked d6+1 s7 ignore cover, pinning
If you did indeed play Eldar, you would know that the twin-link happens at 34" maximum and is not automatic, especially when you had to jink, or are on AA duty, which is one of the reasons we even take Wave Serpents.
You would also know that the lack of AP makes that weapon relatively ineffective at anything but shooting soft armor (AV10-12) or MCs
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 08:40:36
Weazel wrote: Wave Serpents, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights. Avoid using those (at least in any spammy fashion) and you probably won't end up being TFG. Oh and a jetbike farseer/autarch with a mantle is a pain in the butt. 2++ rerollables are something that should not exist in this game.
it is rerollable 2+ COVER save, someone was cheating hard... all it takes is 3 legion of the damned meltas and what mantleseer?
AFTER A THOUSAND EXAMS ONE ONLY SEES FAILURE!
2000
I brought my standard Space wolves list (previous codex). Played for 2 years, always a good fight for any army, only tabled a couple times, and its always on turn 5+ if it happens. Eldar come out, Wraithknight, dark reapers, wave serpants everywhere, and warp spiders just for fun.
Tabled early turn 3. Unable to kill a single freaking thing.
To answer the OP original question... They just are, man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/09 10:36:11
6000pts
3000pts
1500pts
1000pts
all it takes is 3 legion of the damned meltas and what mantleseer?
2000 
2500