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 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
With the increase in MSU I don't think WWP WG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?

thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.

in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DE HQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.

What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.

5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.

blaktoof wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
With the increase in MSU I don't think WWP WG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?

thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.

in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DE HQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.

What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.

5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.

Having a wave serpent on the board isn't bad for avoiding tabling issues turn 1 v a dedicated alpha strike.

Also extends that Debuff. I think it's Objective Secured as well if you take it as the Dedicated Transport for Wraithguard that are bought as Troop Choice.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Amid all the Fast Attack options we have available, I'm starting to like the aesthetic look of Hellions.

What would be the best loadout for them? I'm thinking a Helliarch and maybe a Stunclaw to IK characters in combat for 80 pts, but then again, for 10 points more you can get a Agoniser

Get beast masters instead. They can move though cover and carry a power sword.

I kind of think Shadow Weavers would work really well behind a ADL w/ Comm Relay but of course I dont play eldar.

blaktoof wrote:


5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.

certainly you are going to need to take an Eldar HQ and possibly some troops if you want to have them not be unbound. Still it isnt like farseers are terrible units that people never take except in the concept of a tax. They also need not drop with the unit and can be somewhere else in the army.

Similarly DE have to have a troop choice to take an archon. 105 points for 5 warriors in a double cannon venom might be required, but isnt added into the cost of the drop unit.

Well, you could get Wraithguard, and their DT Serpent, OS by using a Spiritseer as the Eldar ally. As a tax he's only 70 pts but, he's ok buffing. Also, if you're willing to pony up the points, gi e him Shard of Anaris for guaranteed Fearless; roll him with Grotesques. This gets you:

Slight allied buffs.
OS Wraithguard.
OS Serpent.
Turn 1 Fearless Grots (that are already slow, ao they're not slowed by the Spiritseer).

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Amid all the Fast Attack options we have available, I'm starting to like the aesthetic look of Hellions.

What would be the best loadout for them? I'm thinking a Helliarch and maybe a Stunclaw to IK characters in combat for 80 pts, but then again, for 10 points more you can get a Agoniser

Get beast masters instead. They can move though cover and carry a power sword.

I also really like the aesthetic of the hellions, especially since I'm building a wych army. To be honest I'm not sold on the stun claw. I'm trying to think of what characters you'd be challenging and anything that is multi-wound will probably have a decent save. The claw is only ap 6. Or they decline the challenge which is probably best case scenario cause then they won't fight at all. You go first but I just don't see this weapon having that great a chance of killing anything worthwhile. I could be wrong but atleast in my meta no one has any juicy targets I'd want to throw that against. And because it specifically states you have to use it in a challenge I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong) it will have ID on things like a carnifex, something I fight a lot and would love an ID weapon to go against. Power sword is alright cause you get the +1 atk but lose a strength, agoniser is sweet but 25 points is excessive IMO, if I had the spare 10 points though I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I also wonder about their attacks, they have 1 attack base with a two handed weapon that only gives them +1 str and ap 5. Strength 4 is kinda...meh really when you think about it it's essentially a marine smacking you with an ap 5 bolter stock. A marine that is toughness 3 with a 5+ save. I feel these guys don't pack enough punch for something so fragile. At least on paper these guys don't impress me much but maybe they will perform better than I expect. After all they do still get PfP and combat drugs and I find far too many people consider those when they say that wyches suck.

Having said all this I still plan on buying some and giving them a shot. Theoryhammer is one thing but actually using the models is another. Hell even if I lose and die horribly I can atleast say I went out with style right?

So what numbers would you take these guys in? They come stock at 5, and can go up to 20, gain no bonus special weapons though for having more (not like wyches). Helliarch is an auto-take in the squad though IMO.

Could somebody explain to me how does the Void Mine work now? I can't find the bloody description in the Codex.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Could somebody explain to me how does the Void Mine work now? I can't find the bloody description in the Codex.

its on p.106 in codex

its bomb 1, large blast, same other rules as last edition.

Yeah don't know if it's been mentioned but the Archon with Armour of Misery, running around in a Venom Tanking shocking people with -2 LD is pretty boss.

Can Wave Serpent's tank shock?

Cause that'd be an added edition for leaving the Archon in the Wave Serpent then just fly around tank shocking things.

Plus if you tank shock units thats six inches of him is good to.


Actually that's hilarious because you know you can just move it toward a unit with him in it, then just tank shock it with another unit.

With all these massive LD debuffs running around, anyone looking into the grenade launcher potential? I am thinking of taking one or two just because... Thats a good lil chunk o potential pain to be dealt out on a large amount of units out there. 15/30 points isnt THAT heavy a tax for the potential shenanigans

No it's obviously meant to go together. Throw in a Formation from the coven that's pumping out a -1 LD, plus a -2 from the Archon not bad.

Kind of bs that it doesn't work against the Space Marines.

Toss in Irillyth and suddenly they are taking moral checks for tanks shocks on 3d6

I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.

Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.

Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).

Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.

You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.

Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.

Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).

Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.

You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.

This is hilarious!

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.

Take 1-2 detachment of 2x5 warriors, 1 Lhamaean, and 3x1 beastmasters. Hold the warriors in reserve and they have OBSEC

That is indeed hilarious
I have been thinking that MSU based lists are gona be pretty awesome. Loads of cool combos with stuff like Maugan Ra, combined with 5 trueborn with spilnter cannons in a raider, for crazy amounts of poision shots and Maugan Ra's 4str 6 ap5 rending, pinning. May as well keep the dissie too.

Its a quite pricey unit, but in conjunction with other small units combined with ICs I really like the potential for massive fire output in DSing shooty lists.

So combined with HawaiiMatt's cheap unit spam you could balance out the costs to maintain unit count.

Any thoughts on using Support Battery w/ Shadow Weavers w/ ADL w/ Comm link instead of taking a Autarch?

Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.

Take 1-2 detachment of 2x5 warriors, 1 Lhamaean, and 3x1 beastmasters. Hold the warriors in reserve and they have OBSEC

HawaiiMatt wrote:I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.

Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.

Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).

Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.

You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.

The funniest part is that if you gave half of them venoms and half raiders w/ dark lances the army would actually be reasonably potent. You could always deploy the transport and worthless units separately.

What's the most efficient way to take that Kabalite Raiding Party that still allows for you to tag it onto a Real Space Raiders Detachment with 6 Fast Attack?

I did notice this and this is why.

Incubi w/ the Formation treat the turn 1 Higher, if you have a Haemonoculus w/ them thats 1 more turn. If you get off a Animus whatever 1 more turn.

So a 9 man squad of just Incubi in a basic Raider is 235, with the Haemonoculus that makes it 305 base.

That seems "expensive"

Until you realize that just base they're starting off with , Turn 3 Abilities, but wait.

You get Urien, so if he's with in 12 inches of anyone that's everything starting off with Turn 3 Abilities which is really crazy.

Hollismason wrote:
What's the most efficient way to take that Kabalite Raiding Party that still allows for you to tag it onto a Real Space Raiders Detachment with 6 Fast Attack?

I did notice this and this is why.

Incubi w/ the Formation treat the turn 1 Higher, if you have a Haemonoculus w/ them thats 1 more turn. If you get off a Animus whatever 1 more turn.

So a 9 man squad of just Incubi in a basic Raider is 235, with the Haemonoculus that makes it 305 base.

That seems "expensive"

Until you realize that just base they're starting off with , Turn 3 Abilities, but wait.

You get Urien, so if he's with in 12 inches of anyone that's everything starting off with Turn 3 Abilities which is really crazy.

Would not take a Haemonculus with Incubi, no Fleet slows them down. Actually I wouldn't take that many Incubi to begin with, three or four, five most and a Klaviex for Rampage. In a Venom, due to low model count. Urien still works since he has a bubble for PfP.

That's a good point to stick just 5 in a Venom. That way he benefits from Rampage. Urien is a definite try and take but man that Formation is expensive.

Base cost is

Archon
Incubi
Court
6 Kabalite w/ Transport
Scourges
Hellions
Ravager

Total : 1010

Minimum which also comes with a tax for Real Space of like 200.

So there's not alot of room. It probably isn't worth it.

If you want to spam something why not venoms? taking minimum troops you can get 10 venoms for 750pts or 20 for 1500pts. 20 venoms can really put the pain just don't go up against vehicles.

Maybe mix it up with Raiders then. Half warriors(with blaster)/Raider, half Venoms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravagers may actually be better, I dunno.

Well supposedly you can upgrade the Kabalite Warriors to True Born and it doesn't affect the formation. I don't know about that one though , but I am pretty sure it works anyway

6 Squads of Kabalite Trueborn Warriors w/ 2 Haywire Blasters, 3 Shredders , w/ Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons , tank shock thing is 165 I believe.

That's 12 Haywire BLasts

18 ST 6 Blasts

72 Poisoned Shots.

990 Total

I mean do you need all that Haywire is the question, it'd probably be just as useful to take Bareboned 4 Shredders on them. 4 ST6 blasts is good. If you could get some sort of Antiflyer that would be fine right there.

Hollismason wrote:
Well supposedly you can upgrade the Kabalite Warriors to True Born and it doesn't affect the formation. I don't know about that one though , but I am pretty sure it works anyway

That would be interesting, seems to make sense too, as trueborn, is an upgrade available to warriors. Only thing I dislike with that formation is the hellions (but then ive never liked hellions that much).

Hollismason wrote:
Well supposedly you can upgrade the Kabalite Warriors to True Born and it doesn't affect the formation. I don't know about that one though , but I am pretty sure it works anyway

6 Squads of Kabalite Trueborn Warriors w/ 2 Haywire Blasters, 3 Shredders , w/ Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons , tank shock thing is 165 I believe.

That's 12 Haywire BLasts

18 ST 6 Blasts

72 Poisoned Shots.

990 Total

I mean do you need all that Haywire is the question, it'd probably be just as useful to take Bareboned 4 Shredders on them. 4 ST6 blasts is good. If you could get some sort of Antiflyer that would be fine right there.

Trueborn can't take haywire blasters.

Oh yeah I keep forgetting those are scourges only which makes no sense.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh yeah I keep forgetting those are scourges only which makes no sense.

trueborn with haywire blasters would be like wyches with haywire
you'd just put em in a venom, but this time you'd only need to be within 24". Obviously the cost of the blaster would be limiting, but the need to not be in assault range is the balance to that imo.

I would say I think they have tried to limit the amount of haywire DE could spam.... but then I remembered the 6 FA slots in that detatchment I think its probably good they kept them off trueborn, but scourge only? but then who else would you give em to? Considering it seems more a kabal weapon than a coven and there arent really any other kabal units it would work in.