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 Dash2021 wrote:

^^ This. If you are going to field hellions, a giant unit of 20 is about the only advantage they have over any other choice. 40 poison shots on an MC isn't terrible, and there's the chance they survive to do something else. Again, no one's saying this makes for a competitive choice (would need play testing). But if Hellions have a competitive usage, this is probably it: Dropping 40 twin linked poison shots into blobs/MC's.

I'm think it's decent. If you ignore them, they'll be charging with 2 S5 (or better) attacks each, after another volley of poison.
If they've got fearless (coven haemonculus) they can tie up several units, hit and run out with the survives, fire and hit again.
If they are firing into the 5+/5+ FnP guys, they aren't shooting the bikes, scourge or your other soft targets.

@Dash2021 Are hellions twinlinked now? I thought they were just Assault 2?

 AesSedai wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Personally I prefer Heat Lances on my Scourges. Haywire Blasters might be better at eliminating Vehicles under some circumstances, but I play against Tyranids, Chaos Daemons and barely-a-Vehicle-there SM armies that they would be nigh useless far too often. Heat Lances can threaten Bikers, Terminators and MCs as well as Vehicles, and I like TAC choices.

My concern exactly. As a Nid player, I'd love to go up against haywire spammer. They are great at AT, but useless against monsters. Doesn't seem like a good TAC option. That being said, HL may be the way to go. Honestly these days my lists are all reaver heavy with AT coming from drop dragons.

On the other hand, haywire blasters are so much more effective than heat lances that they're worth it anyway. The points you save on anti-tank by bringing a mix of haywire blasters (for high AV targets) and allied moderate strength firepower (for low AV) means that you'll be more effective against both types of armies than if you try to make every weapon effective against every target.

Heat lances really are mediocre weapons, and pretending that they have some kind of anti-elite role is naive at best and disingenuous at worst. If you insist on bringing melta, bring fire dragons. You'll want the wave serpents for transport spam, anyway. (Though Tau are another option for that.)

My math be off, but this is what I came up with comparing Heatlances(in melta range) and Haywire Blasters- feel free to correct me.
Heatlance
AV 10 11 12 13 14
Glance/Pen 33/36 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36
Penetrate 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36 10/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36
Penetrate 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@Dash2021 Are hellions twinlinked now? I thought they were just Assault 2?

you would need an allied farseer for twinlinked


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
My math be off, but this is what I came up with comparing Heatlances(in melta range) and Haywire Blasters- feel free to correct me.
Heatlance
AV 10 11 12 13 14
Glance/Pen 33/36 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36
Penetrate 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36 10/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36
Penetrate 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36

Note that haywire blasters are str4. So they have a slightly higher chance to get a glance against AV10.
Heat lances in melta range are pretty nice. But 9" is pretty short. Haywire blasters have a 24" range.

Haywire blasters are better, but heatlances offer something that can completement the much better haywireblasters. The posibility to explode and the more likely to pen.

Fortifications? Heat lances
AV10 rear armor that you really want to have gone. Heat Lances
Getting damage results. Heat lances
Infantry (2+ saves especilly) heat lances.

Haywire blasters are better when you want reliable anti tank. Particularly against AV12 and higher.

I just dont see the greatness of Heat Lances. How are the Scourge getting within 9" anyway? Deep Strike is unreliable with the chance to scatter out of melta range, or onto the target and mishap. If you start them on the board, they will need a few turns to get into melta range, and could easily be shot off by then. I get that S6 AP2 is good against other targets, but at that point, why not just take Blasers for S8 and 18" range?

As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?

You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.

EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.

Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I just dont see the greatness of Heat Lances. How are the Scourge getting within 9" anyway? Deep Strike is unreliable with the chance to scatter out of melta range, or onto the target and mishap. If you start them on the board, they will need a few turns to get into melta range, and could easily be shot off by then. I get that S6 AP2 is good against other targets, but at that point, why not just take Blasers for S8 and 18" range?

As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?

You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.

EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.

I wish Sslyth had power from pain. Sslyth blob is looking good, but keep in mind that the hellions get drugs, hit and run, furious charge, fearless, fleet, and are jump infantry.
If I wanted a unit to land and take a beating, Sslyth is a great choice. If I wanted a unit to land, and tie up a few enemy units, I'd take hellions. Hellions having more speed can grab multiple enemies a lot easier than Sslyth will be able to.
They are doing different things (though both dish out a lot of poison hits).
I think it's more fair to compare Sslyth to Dark Artisan formation, both WWP into the backfield and provide a big close combat threat, both are slow on the ground, and both are really tough to kill.
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.

I dont think going pure any weapon with scourges is going to do you any favors unless you face a whole lot of parking lots. I am planning on doing 4 squads of them +2 reavers in my list... probably going to go with 2 haywire per squad and *maybe* 2 blasters... at 24 ill be able to knock a few hullpoints off per squad, at 18 i should pop a transport a turn per squad, plus the blasters can come in handy after the vehicles are down for additional infantry killing. Least thats my theory anyhow

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.

You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.

Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.

Not really that big a deal. You can take a pair of Lhamaeans for 20 points. The first refuses any challenges and the second keeps the squad at a healthy Ld9 even while the other is avoiding the combat. And even at Ld3, Psychic Scream (or its equivalents) are all pretty pants against Sslyths because they're balanced as AP2 ignore cover weapons. That kind of profile isn't very threatening to a 2 wound model with FNP, even with the additional 6 hits.

Psychic Scream is far scarier to something like a Gargantuan Creature, where you get to simultaneously ignore an absurdly high toughness score and a 2+ armor save.

Lhamaeans aren't characters and can't issue or refuse challenges. Likewise, they don't get a look out. A very small amount of sniper fire will off the Lhamaean and pin the unit.
With a pair of Lhamaea, you've now lost the no-scatter on the deep strike, and are cutting into the firepower.

Depending on how you play psychic shriek, you might be using the closest model for the LD, or using the Majority Ld for resolving the power. RAW, you only use the highest LD for a characteristic test, and PS is not a characteristic test.

I'm not saying they are bad, only that they do have some subtle considerations to worry about.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.

You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.

Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.

If you want to err on the side of caution, that's understandable. Personally, I like the Heat Lances for their greater effectiveness as a weapon, but I think the difference is narrow enough to go either way.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.

You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.

Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.

If you want to err on the side of caution, that's understandable. Personally, I like the Heat Lances for their greater effectiveness as a weapon, but I think the difference is narrow enough to go either way.

A fair point on the specific effectiveness.

I'd say heat lances are more effective than haywire blasters, but we lack any feasible delivery system for them, which basically balances them out, if not slightly leaning in haywires favor.

Sinful Hero wrote:@Dash2021 Are hellions twinlinked now? I thought they were just Assault 2?

Yea, sorry. I've been playing CWE (aka codex re-roll) for so long I just assume a unit that puts out that many shots is going to get a guide from me.

extremefreak17 wrote:
As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?

You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.

EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.

As Matt already pointed out, you could make do with either depending on what roll they are filling. Also I think both he and I are mostly playing devils advocate here, trying to find the best way to polish the turd that is hellions. Me, personally, I'm not advocating DS hellion blob as best in slot or even great unit. Simply backing up Matt's assesment that a big blob of Hellions DS'ng, shooting/bullying back field objective campers is probably about the most competitive use they have. Hellions are pretty bad, but they do have HnR which is (IMO) one of the best USRs in the game. Where Sslyth could put out ~ the same shooting and more dmg in HtH, they can be locked down slogging through big/tough units. Hellions get to shoot and charge every single turn, which might actually put their dmg output against tough targets higher than the Sslyth.

Again, not saying I'd ever actually field a hellion squad, but if I was going to this is how I'd do it.

Anyone here run Ravagers with disintegration cannons? A pair of them would be 18, S5, AP2 shots which sounds extremely good to me. And they're 15 points cheaper each than equipped with lances...

mercury14 wrote:
Anyone here run Ravagers with disintegration cannons? A pair of them would be 18, S5, AP2 shots which sounds extremely good to me. And they're 15 points cheaper each than equipped with lances...

Yeah, I'm going to get at least one to run with my wyches and hellions.
Mostly so if I ever win a game I can say, "Dude, you just got beat by Wyches, Hellions and a Ravager."

A ravager in cover with a night shield, throwing out 9 S5 AP2 shots isn't bad for the cost. I don't think I'd ever run two, because I need some more serious threats on the table to force you to deal with.

Or to put it the other way, 3 lances are now 15 pts more expensive than they used to be...

Problem is, if you are moving you are snapshooting one of those guns. If you are not moving you are toast. If you jink, again with the snap shooting...

Ravagers are kind of sucky these days.

 Dash2021 wrote:
Again, not saying I'd ever actually field a hellion squad, but if I was going to this is how I'd do it.

That's a nice way of summarizing it. Sslyth and Hellions have about the same firepower, with Sslyths having an advantage in durability and Hellions having an advantage in mobility.

With durability being such a rare commodity in our codex, I think most people will prefer the snakes -- especially since transports let them claim a 3+ cover save without snap firing, while splinter racks give them rerolls to hit.

Yeah, it's super easy to put Hellions into the cover of Raiders and Venoms. So they'll probably end up with a Cover save.

Also, consider that a unit on Turn 2 can actually have Level 4 abilities and they get incredibly nasty.

How?

Kabalite Raiding party, counts 1 turn higher to turn 3 abilities for feel no pain.

Ally with Coven and get the 12" bubble or shoot someone with a ST4 AP2 and get that ability off. (It's actually possible to get them up to turn 5)

Even base though they've got Feel No Pain when they'd land, have 40 poisoned shots, and you should probably not assault them unless you are going to wipe them out because they have Hit and Run. They also get Combat Drugs which 50% of that chart is amazing.

Seriously on Turn 3 , they'll get Furious Charge, if they got +1 ST, they're charging at ST6, if not ST5. If you ally with the Coven, you can actually get them to turn 6 by turn 3 so great now they're Fearless, Furious Charge, and have Rage.

That formation by the way is not actually that expensive when you consider the benefits of what it does and that on turn 1 you can have 4 huge squads of 20 Warriors with a 4+ cover save and Feel No Pain 6+. You have to buy them a transport. There's nothing that says they have to start in it. So you can take huge squads of Kabalite Warriors which can be upgraded to Trueborn.

The biggest problem with the Dark Eldar army is that people are taking it at face value and don't realize that it is in fact a shooty Daemon army w/ most of the army having basically a 5+ invulnerable under most circumstances, because people don't seem to understand that the army fundamentally want's to ignore the first turn so that it can start getting it's benefits.

Corollax wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:
Again, not saying I'd ever actually field a hellion squad, but if I was going to this is how I'd do it.

That's a nice way of summarizing it. Sslyth and Hellions have about the same firepower, with Sslyths having an advantage in durability and Hellions having an advantage in mobility.
With durability being such a rare commodity in our codex, I think most people will prefer the snakes -- especially since transports let them claim a 3+ cover save without snap firing, while splinter racks give them rerolls to hit.

Durable? Talos with Ichor Injectors (fleshbane, and instant death on 6), twin-heat lance, Cronos with 4+ FnP bubble, Haemonculus that gives all Talos and Cronos re-rolls of 1 on feel no pain, a webway for pin-point deep strike, and a few rending attacks. 370 points. Try and shoot up T7 3+ armor, 4+ FnP (re-roll 1's), after it's teleported in exactly where it wants to be. If that wasn't enough, the Talos/Cronos get +1 Ws and +1 Init. It's just a totally awesome "Deal with this NOW" unit.

The snakes have been surprisingly squishy to me. Maybe that's because I usually see at least 10 snipers in every game, and that totally gimps a Ld3 unit.

I still can't come up with a good decent lay out for the Kabalite Raiding party.

Hollismason wrote:
I still can't come up with a good decent lay out for the Kabalite Raiding party.

The raiding party seems pretty point and click to me. 6 x 5 man warriors in venoms w/cannons, 4-7 Incubi w/Archon (agonizer + shadow field), min hellions, 5 scourges w/haywire blasters, 3 medusa in a venom w/cannons, Ravager. Ally in reserve manipulation (autarch would be easiest)

Go for the turn 2 beta strike, deploying hellions, Ravager, and ally units spread out/OOR of opponent. Turn 2 drop everything and neuter.

Here again though, I think it's kind of turd polishing. Is +1 PfP worth having to soak 6-700 points in warriors? Don't get me wrong, 6 venoms and 6 blasters is cool, but you can do that in the regular detachment. The only thing the Raiding party gets is 5+/6+ cover and + 1 PfP. Cover doesn't really factor in, as you are either capable of jinking via your mandatory transport or, preferably, off the table ready to beta strike. So in the end you're shoehorning in at least 2 units you want to leave home (hellions/ravagers), and seriously have to bloat your troops for +1 pfp. If you start upgrading to trueborn you have even fewer points left over for the allies that you're desperately going to need to cover the gaping holes in your army.

In contrast, give up your +1 PfP and you get back the wasted points on hellions/ravager/troops/court (i'd put incubi here too: too expensive for my blood) you don't want and get to allocate those points towards reavers/scourges/Razorwings/Talos/Cronos. The formation just offers to little for such a restrictive composition. Pass.

Kabalite Raiding Party is a turd that cannot be polished.

 Ascalam wrote:
Or to put it the other way, 3 lances are now 15 pts more expensive than they used to be...

Problem is, if you are moving you are snapshooting one of those guns. If you are not moving you are toast. If you jink, again with the snap shooting...

Ravagers are kind of sucky these days.

Not sure about other people's experiences with Ravagers but when I run them they don't take much fire at all. I rush a large volume of small units and nobody is ever able to not flinch and fire at backfield Ravagers. Even enemy deep strikers typically ignore them. And I keep them behind cover so I don't need to jink with them.

If I'm running higher-cost units such as Grots and have a smaller number of threats on the board I might think twice about taking Ravagers, however they almost always take very little heat and survive for a long time.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Kabalite Raiding Party is a turd that cannot be polished.

I don't think that's true at all, simply because it can be taken as a formation, has lots of troops and you can still ally etc.. to make up for it.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.

You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.

Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.

As an enclaves main player, you are horribly underestimating the 9" melta range.
You don't need to land PINPOINT, you need to land GOOD ENOUGH.

Not saying that haywires are useless, the range has its perks (especially with jump movement, as it means you got an on-foot 36" threat range, not HAVING to deepstrike) and as S4AP4 its not outright useless outside of AT value, but the lance deals so much more when it comes to dealing with other nasties like MCs and termies. (and termi MCs like dreadknights and riptides)

Its a matter of choice, do you need that extra anti-tank range to assure its done, or the backup anti-nasty gun?
And I for one love the fact there is no direct right answer here.