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It's all about different degrees of competitiveness and the eternal Fluff vs. Power issue. Personally I wouldn't run an army with "rudimentary Troops choices" and some odd-but-optimised unit choices. I try the semi-competitive approach with a TAC army that makes some sense from the fluff standpoint. Like, Archon leader in a Venom, Kabalite Warriors in Raiders, Scourges and Ravagers. See, a nice Kabal force. And then some Fliers for the sake of completeness and some airborne destruction.

Is this army highly competitive? No. Does it make more sense (from the fluff standpoint) than an "army" led by Lhameans/Sslyths with 10 Warriors scattered across two Venoms and consisting mostly of Scourges and Reavers? Yes.

This is the best I could come up with for the Kabalite Raiding Party

Archon , Webway Portal, Haywire Grenades (goes w/ Medusae) (100)

Court of the Archon
Medusa x 2
Venom w/ SC (115)

Incubi x 4 w/ Klaivex (155)
Venom w/ SC

Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster (120)
Venom w/ SC

Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster (120)
Venom w/ SC

Kabalite Warriors x 5 w/ Blaster (120)
Venom w/ SC

Kabalite Warriors w/ Shredder (110)
Venom w/ SC

Kabalite Warriors w/ Shredder (110)
Venom w/ SC

Kabalite Warriors x 5 w/ Shredder (110)
Venom w/ SC

Hellions x 10 w/ Heliarch ( 140 )

Scourge w/ 4 Haywire Blaster (120)

Ravager 110

Total: 1430

So there are actual points to work with if you are playing at higher levels. Just not sure it's the greatest load out.

I can say taking a Haemonoculus and putting him with the Incubi makes that squad insane.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.

On the other hand, Talos and Cronos wreck nids. T7 with 3+ armor and 4+ feel no pain is a problem for nids. AP2 and lethal dose (ichor injectors) is big threat to the big bugs.
Tyranids aren't a bad match up, Tyranids are just a bad match up for the typically DE build.
If you know the bugs are coming, we have all the tools we need.

Actually not really, little bugs to a number on taloi and they out maneuver them as well. Recycled gargoyles especially. I agree old lists need reworking but that is hardly exclusive to tyranid match ups. Drop pod marines etc etc all have the ability to screw over troops as transport passengers. It's why my armies are looking more and more like sideshows filled with Fiends, Sslyth and Grotesques rather then warriors and wyches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I just dont see the greatness of Heat Lances. How are the Scourge getting within 9" anyway? Deep Strike is unreliable with the chance to scatter out of melta range, or onto the target and mishap. If you start them on the board, they will need a few turns to get into melta range, and could easily be shot off by then. I get that S6 AP2 is good against other targets, but at that point, why not just take Blasers for S8 and 18" range?

As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?

You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.

EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.

I wish Sslyth had power from pain. Sslyth blob is looking good, but keep in mind that the hellions get drugs, hit and run, furious charge, fearless, fleet, and are jump infantry.
If I wanted a unit to land and take a beating, Sslyth is a great choice. If I wanted a unit to land, and tie up a few enemy units, I'd take hellions. Hellions having more speed can grab multiple enemies a lot easier than Sslyth will be able to.
They are doing different things (though both dish out a lot of poison hits).
I think it's more fair to compare Sslyth to Dark Artisan formation, both WWP into the backfield and provide a big close combat threat, both are slow on the ground, and both are really tough to kill.
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.

Anyone determined enough to paint, transport and then deepstrike a massive 20 man hellion unit gets mad credit from me. Just the logistical headache alone makes that unit a none option for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Spoiler:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.

You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.

Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.

As an enclaves main player, you are horribly underestimating the 9" melta range.
You don't need to land PINPOINT, you need to land GOOD ENOUGH.

Not saying that haywires are useless, the range has its perks (especially with jump movement, as it means you got an on-foot 36" threat range, not HAVING to deepstrike) and as S4AP4 its not outright useless outside of AT value, but the lance deals so much more when it comes to dealing with other nasties like MCs and termies. (and termi MCs like dreadknights and riptides)

Its a matter of choice, do you need that extra anti-tank range to assure its done, or the backup anti-nasty gun?
And I for one love the fact there is no direct right answer here.

The trouble with heatlances though is you pretty much MUST deep strike them. DE need to start cracking armor turn 1, we can't afford to have scourge not come in 33% of the time turn 2, then scatter 67% of the time. Farsight enclaves is a poor comparison IMO, you can take solo suits which are smaller footprint and you are s8, you also get 2 shots per suit and are WAY more durable with a JSJ ability. Your looking at apples to melons there. With tau your not exactly struggling to dump AT shots down field turn 1 also and usually they are icing on the cake OR they have a very specific threat to target like a Knight.

Sadly we need AT specialists to kill rhinos, for that task I'd rather field the haywire blaster. Kill their transport early and keep them corralled. Keep in mind this is my opinion on taking one over another, personally I think you should take at least a 1:1 ratio but I would rather have a 2:1 of haywire:heatlances.

If melta is what your Jonesing for I still say take firedragons. I hated to admit it but CWE really are a tool we can't ignore, a jet farseer, some windriders a firedragon unit and a wraithknight round out any DE list in every damned phase. Firedragons are 110 for 5 but you need a venom, but now when DS'ing you have 12 SC shots at the target you cracked (or something else) and with a 6" disembark PLUS battle focus their melta guns are miles ahead of HL scourge. Oh and they have melta bombs and a 3+ save with ld9.

TL;DR Take firedragons for melta.

 Red Corsair wrote:

The trouble with heatlances though is you pretty much MUST deep strike them. DE need to start cracking armor turn 1, we can't afford to have scourge not come in 33% of the time turn 2, then scatter 67% of the time. Farsight enclaves is a poor comparison IMO, you can take solo suits which are smaller footprint and you are s8, you also get 2 shots per suit and are WAY more durable with a JSJ ability. Your looking at apples to melons there. With tau your not exactly struggling to dump AT shots down field turn 1 also and usually they are icing on the cake OR they have a very specific threat to target like a Knight.

Sadly we need AT specialists to kill rhinos, for that task I'd rather field the haywire blaster. Kill their transport early and keep them corralled. Keep in mind this is my opinion on taking one over another, personally I think you should take at least a 1:1 ratio but I would rather have a 2:1 of haywire:heatlances.

If melta is what your Jonesing for I still say take firedragons. I hated to admit it but CWE really are a tool we can't ignore, a jet farseer, some windriders a firedragon unit and a wraithknight round out any DE list in every damned phase. Firedragons are 110 for 5 but you need a venom, but now when DS'ing you have 12 SC shots at the target you cracked (or something else) and with a 6" disembark PLUS battle focus their melta guns are miles ahead of HL scourge. Oh and they have melta bombs and a 3+ save with ld9.

TL;DR Take firedragons for melta.

Pretty much this.

Heat Lances are not S8 like everyone else's Melta, they are S6. If they scatter outside of 9", they are pretty much useless against most vehicles. They are actually pretty terrible at killing MC's as well. 4 Heatlances only put 1 unsaved wound on a Riptide in the open, and you would need 9 lances to put a single wound on a Wraithknight. It gets even worse if you factor cover. Yes, they can gank Termies, but so can Dissies, Blsters, and Dark Lances, which we have plenty of already in our army.

Also who brings none SS termies ever anyway?

I think the biggest thing to take away from Eldar should be the great CC HQs they have.

Mainly because they're all pretty boss.

You've got

Autarch w/ Jetbike w/ lance, meltagun thingie, and he has a shield , plus benefits from hit and run if he's with a unit of Reavers

You've got Baharoth who's crazy good with Hellions when you think about it.

You've got Karandos who's just awesome, he gives stealth, infiltrate, etc..

You've got Fuegan who's great as well.


Like all of the Phoenix Lords for Eldar are super great for Dark Eldar as several of them make up for whatever lack the unit their in doesn't have.

Hollismason wrote:
I think the biggest thing to take away from Eldar should be the great CC HQs they have.

Mainly because they're all pretty boss.

You've got

Autarch w/ Jetbike w/ lance, meltagun thingie, and he has a shield , plus benefits from hit and run if he's with a unit of Reavers

You've got Baharoth who's crazy good with Hellions when you think about it.

You've got Karandos who's just awesome, he gives stealth, infiltrate, etc..

You've got Fuegan who's great as well.


Like all of the Phoenix Lords for Eldar are super great for Dark Eldar as several of them make up for whatever lack the unit their in doesn't have.

Asurmen + 9 Wyches might be something. He can tank shooting and overwatch with T4, 2+, 4++, EW. Also has AP 2 and is an absolute boss in chalenges.

Pheonix Lords could be fun beat sticks, but utility HQ's reign supreme. Farseer is never a bad option, and the Autarch has a lot of strong synergy with the types of lists that DE want to run. Autarch gives you a nice beat stick if you want as well, so that's a two-fer.

PL's for funzies list will be a blast, but leave em at home in a tournament.

Solo psychers are very underwhelming IMHO. They will have hit or miss impact while a phoenix lord will add an anchor to an important flank the whole game. Though I will admit I haven't used Eldrad in a hot minute.

Gotta give my vote to barahoth since he gives hit and run to fiends or grots.

That said I would never waste him in hellions since they already have the ability and because it's like putting caviar on a pop tart.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Solo psychers are very underwhelming IMHO. They will have hit or miss impact while a phoenix lord will add an anchor to an important flank the whole game. Though I will admit I haven't used Eldrad in a hot minute.

Gotta give my vote to barahoth since he gives hit and run to fiends or grots.

That said I would never waste him in hellions since they already have the ability and because it's like putting caviar on a pop tart.

Exalted for 'caviar on a pop tart.'

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Solo psychers are very underwhelming IMHO. They will have hit or miss impact while a phoenix lord will add an anchor to an important flank the whole game. Though I will admit I haven't used Eldrad in a hot minute.

Gotta give my vote to barahoth since he gives hit and run to fiends or grots.

That said I would never waste him in hellions since they already have the ability and because it's like putting caviar on a pop tart.

Exalted for 'caviar on a pop tart.'

Same.

Ha ha I was impressed with myself as I wrote it. Too kind mates

Yeah that's a exalt from me as well.

I don't think Hellions are bad, I think that the faq they're 13 points which I feel is cheap can be taken in a squad of 20 and get multiple special abilities edges them to being decent.

HOWEVER

Reavers are so much better in like almost every aspect it's hard to say take Helions over Reavers. However Helions have some amazing just amazing models so there's that, and as I said it's pretty easy to keep them in cover, also by the 2nd or 3 turn if you are manipulating the turns or coming in on Turn 2, the squads got Fearless, Furious Charge, and Feel No Pain.

That's boss for 13 points a model, plus probably the best special ability in the game almost Hit and Run which confers to characters that join.

Autarch on a bike could join them etc..

Plus the big thing of having a huge squad size of 20, that's 40 Poison Shots coming at you. Plus they get hit and run. Charging in with ST5 on later turns. Possibly ST6. That's pretty boss.

im liking the idea of this massive hellion blob.

So far I have had great success mixing Dark Eldar detachments with the new Coven detachment. I think they mesh well and really add alot to each other. Units of taloi are amazing and the archons load out is awesome... agonizer, soultrap, haywires, shadowfield... this is cheap and send him up against the nastiest unit with a 3+ save and challenge! lol.

The only problem that I see with the 20 man Blob of Hellions is that really there's no way to put any special character in with them unless you went with maybe a Autarch from Eldar.

That's about it. It also has like no other role on the field , it's just anti-infantry, where as a 12 man Reaver bike squad can be anti infantry and anti tank but it's going to have fewer bodies, but it's damage out put is insane.

The models though are pretty boss and they are not actually Terribad. I could see it's use in a Deep Strike force with Grotesquire etc..

Hollismason wrote:
The only problem that I see with the 20 man Blob of Hellions is that really there's no way to put any special character in with them unless you went with maybe a Autarch from Eldar.
That's about it. It also has like no other role on the field , it's just anti-infantry, where as a 12 man Reaver bike squad can be anti infantry and anti tank but it's going to have fewer bodies, but it's damage out put is insane.
The models though are pretty boss and they are not actually Terribad. I could see it's use in a Deep Strike force with Grotesquire etc..

40 S5 attacks (possibly S6), does give a little anti-tank.
The S5 attacks might actually be better than the S6 rending hammer of wraith. Since HoW says it hits the vehicle facing touched, the hellions can get to that rear armor.

-Matt

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.

Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.

I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.

I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.

You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.

Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.

You are thinking in 1 Dimension. The scatter occurs in 2 Dimensions.
So you land, 66% chance to scatter. but then only a small chance you will be scattering directly towards your target or directly away from your target. Moving 8" sideways and you are still in 9" from target but perhaps not in the correct firing arch(which you dont care about much with lance melta)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?

You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.

EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.

I wish Sslyth had power from pain. Sslyth blob is looking good, but keep in mind that the hellions get drugs, hit and run, furious charge, fearless, fleet, and are jump infantry.
If I wanted a unit to land and take a beating, Sslyth is a great choice. If I wanted a unit to land, and tie up a few enemy units, I'd take hellions. Hellions having more speed can grab multiple enemies a lot easier than Sslyth will be able to.
They are doing different things (though both dish out a lot of poison hits).
I think it's more fair to compare Sslyth to Dark Artisan formation, both WWP into the backfield and provide a big close combat threat, both are slow on the ground, and both are really tough to kill.
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.

So just a thought. If you are really thinking of taking hellions for pure dakka power. What about scourges with no special weapons. 10 is 160 points and puts out 30 splinter shots. They have no leadership problems, they have ghostplate, they have mobility. No expensive HQ nessisary.

Heatlance(Melta Range)
AV......................10......11......12.......13.......14
Glance/Pen.....33/36.31/36.26/36.26/36.26/36
Penetrate........31/36.26/36.21/36.21/36.21/36
Heatlance(Outside Melta Range)
Glance/Pen.....18/36.12/36..6/36..6/36..6/36
Penetrate.........12/36..6/36..0/36..0/36..0/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen.....30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36
Penetrate..........6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36
Blaster
Glance/Pen....30/36.24/36.18/36.18/36.18/36
Penetrate.......24/36.18/36.12/36.12/36.12/36
Actually added the lance rule to these, and made it a bit more legible. Can also convert to % if that's easier to read.

Scourges with just shard carbines are very good anti MC and anti infantry for the cost.

The only issue is that you can get massed splinter shots elsewhere and there aren't too many places we can get a large amount of special and or heavy weapons in a small unit.

Regarding hellions, I don't think its even necessary to put an expensive HQ with them. They have a 12" move and the splinter pods have an 18" range. You should be able to shoot something turn 1 or 2. They already have deepstrike so if you want to deepstrike them you can without an HQ that has WWP. Of course you have to scatter now, but against certain armies on certain tables there is lots of space already... Hellions have decent anti infantry shooting, and can get up to str 5 on the charge with FC from PfP so they can threaten light armor and infantry fairly well. The problem is they are pretty fragile, and what they bring we can get a lot of other places.

Some people seem to forget that the Heat Lances have both Melta and Lance USRs. They might glance AV 14 at full range because it still counts as AV 12, so whilst they're considerably hindered they are not completely useless either.

Another strong point is AP 1. When those pens start coming the number of results might severely impair a Vehicle even when it is not outright destroyed, something that the "Gotta Glance 'em All" Haywire Blasters are all but incapable of.

Speaking of Hellions they are not necessarily terrible, it's just that there are other units that can do their job much better. Reavers and Scourges rock.

I think every unit can be good, but it depends on how you play them. If you have a strategy in mind, then you can make most of the units work .

Of course it goes without saying, it will be difficult and requires some skill to play the other units, but each unit has a purpose that is can execute

I think it's pretty easy to maintain cover with Helions. Especially with your raiders etc..

Kind of curious how people are playing the army now with the Coven as it seems like such a fantastically wonderful addition.

Grotesquire (whatever its spell), is kind of crazy good.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Heatlance(Melta Range)
AV......................10......11......12.......13.......14
Glance/Pen.....33/36.31/36.26/36.26/36.26/36
Penetrate........31/36.26/36.21/36.21/36.21/36
Heatlance(Outside Melta Range)
Glance/Pen.....18/36.12/36..6/36..6/36..6/36
Penetrate.........12/36..6/36..0/36..0/36..0/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen.....30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36
Penetrate..........6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36
Blaster
Glance/Pen....30/36.24/36.18/36.18/36.18/36
Penetrate.......24/36.18/36.12/36.12/36.12/36
Actually added the lance rule to these, and made it a bit more legible. Can also convert to % if that's easier to read.

again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.

 Exergy wrote:
again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.

Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.

Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.

Well, if they don't it only goes up to 31/36. So not really that big of a deal. There's a 5/36 chance to deal two hullpoints. Penetrate is unchanged.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.

Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.

Well, if they don't it only goes up to 31/36. So not really that big of a deal. There's a 5/36 chance to deal two hullpoints. Penetrate is unchanged.

I'm confused. Explain how Haywire Blasters deal two hullpoints?

And here's the hullpoints a unit of five(4 of each weapon) will deal on average.
AV...............10......11.......12......13......14
Haywire Blaster
Glances......2.49...2.49...2.49...2.49...2.49
Pens...........0.48...0.48...0.48...0.48...0.48
Blaster
Glances......2.49...1.98...1.50...1.50...1.50
Pens...........1.98...1.50...0.99...0.99...0.99
Heatlance(Inside Melta)
Glances......2.73...2.58...2.16...2.16...2.16
Pens...........2.58...2.16...1.74...1.74...1.74
Heatlances(Outside Melta)
Glances......1.50...0.99...0.48...0.48...0.48
Pens...........0.99...0.48...0.00...0.00...0.00



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.

Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.

Well, if they don't it only goes up to 31/36. So not really that big of a deal. There's a 5/36 chance to deal two hullpoints. Penetrate is unchanged.

I'm confused. Explain how Haywire Blasters deal two hullpoints?

If they roll for Haywire AND the Str 4 armor pen, they have a slight chance to glance on the Str 4 against AV 10.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
If they roll for Haywire AND the Str 4 armor pen, they have a slight chance to glance on the Str 4 against AV 10.

pg 165, BRB: Haywire Rule:

'When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling for armour penetration normally:

1 - No result
2-5 Glancing Hit
6 Penetrating Hit'

So for any Haywire Weapon you roll on the above table instead of rolling for armour pen, not in addition.

Also I had a closer look at the table you originally posted, to glance with a Haywire Blaster, you need a 2,3,4 or 5. The chance to cause a glance with a successful hit is 24/36, or 4/6, with a 1/6 to fail and 1/6 to cause a penetrating hit.

Not trying to say other weapons on Scourges are better, just pointing out Haywire Blasters aren't as good as your data shows them to be.

Haywire is not "and". its a replacement roll.

Read the haywire rules, they quite clearly say ".....roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling for armour penetration normally...."


Colored the important bit in red.

EDIT: ninjaed



In any case, none have doubts that haywire beats heat lance when it comes to your everyday armored target.

Its when dealing with superheavies that the heat lance shines, as them extra hull points form "expload" results REALLY matter, the 3.333 HP damage dealt with 4 haywires is just not enough. you need them explode results.

And, still counting the fact it actually puts pain on elite style units, rather then only on armored units. you want something to hurt them oblits, termies and dreadknights, and the heat lance delivers a decent score at doing that.



I vote heat lances, because while they are not quite as amazing against tanks-they cover more angles.

A penetrate still causes a hullpoint though, and my table has it listed as a Glance/Pen(so both). I just listed penetrates as seperate by themselves to illustrate where Blasters and Heatlances shine- additional damage over hullpoint stripping. Just Stunning a vehicle for a turn can be all you need to win a game.