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 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

lustigjh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

I'd assume to have them mobile, open top means they are getting to where they need and shooting without getting out. If I ran em I'd do the same cause sitting in cover waiting for things to shoot isn't the DE/CWE way haha

lustigjh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

Well, I like having the flexibility of being able to deepstrike/enter from reserves and I also think you will find that you will be able to draw LOS much easier from the raider since they can all shoot from ANY point of the hull. I also like the extra layer of protection since your forcing your opponent to kill a raider first which is actually difficult from 48" away with a 3+ cover save. Remember those reapers have a 3+ but they are also only T3 while that raider makes them immune to small arms fire.

Say you come up against another eldar player with scatter laser bikes, he now has to use a minimum of two units to get those reapers of the table, and you can bet he will want them dead since they ignore jink and windrider armor. That deepstrike will also allow you to get the alpha on another unit first, potentially two since the raider will have a disintegrator.

At the end of the day you can still get great mileage from a unit on foot, but I think you will find that they are much more potent inside a transport or even a bastion if thats the route you want to take.

lustigjh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

If I've got line of sight blocking terrain, I'll nose in behind it and swing out the back end into line of sight. Jink, + night shield + obscured = 2+ cover save. Crack that before you get to shoot back at my reapers.
In the open, it drops to 'only' 3+ cover. Forcing an opponent to deal with AV10 HP3 and 2+ or 3+ cover before they can start plinking away at T3 3+ makes them a lot more durable.
I'm going with venom for the fire dragons; chances of me wanting to deep strike is greater, and I want the smaller foot print. Even if I don't deep strike, it is a lot easier to hide a venom on approach than a raider.
Just built the first mandrake hellion hybrid for the warp spider stand in... I like it a lot, might have to get another box of mandrakes to make more than just 5.

-Matt

@HawaiiMatt- Yes, it's a bitter irony that the tactics I work to help other people play and develop I cannot use in competitive play myself. (I still play my lists and tactics against other friends' tourney lists; I wouldn't promote the idea if I didn't think it was viable.) Kinda feel like Moses looking into the promised land sometimes. (My old club was so restrictive they frequently put 40% troop minimum requirements into events, and they disallowed E-codexes altogether.) Still, the new TO says he will loosen up the restrictions, so I'm going to remain optimistic.

@RedCorsair- I take with my army when I travel, so if I'm ever in Maine I'll look you guys up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I'm always in favor of putting units in transports when possible. There are very few units that DON'T benefit from two extra hull points and either a 3+ cover or a 4+ cover and a 5+ invulnerable, especially in the space elf armies.

I'd love to play with you man! Same goes to any other dakkanaut in my neck of the woods (literally lol) PM me if your ever in the north east looking for a game!

I think I know exactly how I am going to approach warp spiders and dark reapers but I am still working the kinks out of fire dragons and hawks. I still like the wasp idea but it is going to take some creativity not breaking the bank on blight drone wings lol.

Reaper miniatures sells a five-pack of fairy wing sets if you like. I used them on a set of scourges, and they look wonderful.

Ah, firing from any point on the vehicle makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered that...aspect...of the transport

Jimsolo wrote:Reaper miniatures sells a five-pack of fairy wing sets if you like. I used them on a set of scourges, and they look wonderful.

Spoiler:

Awesome! Thanks!

lustigjh wrote:Ah, firing from any point on the vehicle makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered that...aspect...of the transport

Hehe

I was wondering if anybody has any suggestions for the optimum Grotesquerie unit size? I am a big fan of Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, but if one isn't going to go full Grot bomb, what is the best squad size for the formation? Two squads of four? Asymmetrical squad sizes, one small squad and one larger squad WWP'd in? Just wanted to hear any recommendations based on experience.

Two units of four in Raiders is my preference. That way the haemmy can take one, and another character (in my Freakshows, usually the Armor of Misery Archon) takes the other.

Interesting. Thanks Jimsolo. Why the AoM Archon instead of the Succubus though? Points?

I second the 2 squads of 4 with raider. It seems to work the best and has even more survivability. For me a big squad with WWP is beaten very easily so tried it once they killed one squad and slowly moved around the board until they died.

Incognito15 wrote:
I second the 2 squads of 4 with raider. It seems to work the best and has even more survivability. For me a big squad with WWP is beaten very easily so tried it once they killed one squad and slowly moved around the board until they died.

Is the Raider what gives the smaller squad more survivability versus the larger WWP squad?

sweetbacon wrote:
Interesting. Thanks Jimsolo. Why the AoM Archon instead of the Succubus though? Points?

Either would work, I suppose. I like the archon because I have cooler Archon models, lol. You could even have a codex haemmie if you liked. I do like that Archons have access to both useful ranged and CC options, though.

I use both sizes in my current list (one with 10 and one with 4) to fill different roles. My large squad has a Haemie with AoM, Banshee Mask Archon, and Farseer (warlord), while the smaller squad has the formation Haemie and a Raider with Enhanced Aethersails. I use the larger squad as my "death star" that soaks up a LOT of attention. Most people in my meta have ignored it and let the unit ravage their ranks. The smaller squad is used as a counter-assault unit if my opponent wants to deep strike and/or moves fast.

I prefer Haemies if I'm using the Grotesquerie formation because it expediates the Power from Pain rule that makes these units work so well. The Grotesques will bruise enough noses that you do not need another hard hitter in the squad.

I read earlier that someone had a hard time with a Decurion, I wanted to let them know that my Grotesques wiped the board clean of all but 3 Jet pack models by turn 6.

But going small works too, I had my unit of 4 Grots and Haemie tie up 6 Mega Nobs (Assault variant), a squad of 5 lychguard, and a Scythe wielding Overlord for 5 rounds of combat while my large squad obliterated the center field.

The key to using Grotesques is to either neutralize or avoid the units that by pass their survivability through Instant Death. Strength 10 and Force weapons need to be the primary focus of your shooting attacks.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I use both sizes in my current list (one with 10 and one with 4) to fill different roles. My large squad has a Haemie with AoM, Banshee Mask Archon, and Farseer (warlord), while the smaller squad has the formation Haemie and a Raider with Enhanced Aethersails. I use the larger squad as my "death star" that soaks up a LOT of attention. Most people in my meta have ignored it and let the unit ravage their ranks. The smaller squad is used as a counter-assault unit if my opponent wants to deep strike and/or moves fast.

I prefer Haemies if I'm using the Grotesquerie formation because it expediates the Power from Pain rule that makes these units work so well. The Grotesques will bruise enough noses that you do not need another hard hitter in the squad.

I read earlier that someone had a hard time with a Decurion, I wanted to let them know that my Grotesques wiped the board clean of all but 3 Jet pack models by turn 6.

But going small works too, I had my unit of 4 Grots and Haemie tie up 6 Mega Nobs (Assault variant), a squad of 5 lychguard, and a Scythe wielding Overlord for 5 rounds of combat while my large squad obliterated the center field.

The key to using Grotesques is to either neutralize or avoid the units that by pass their survivability through Instant Death. Strength 10 and Force weapons need to be the primary focus of your shooting attacks.

That's a really interesting approach. It's half Grot bomb/half small unit. Other than maybe the 4+FNP, what is generally the most useful ability from the Latest Experiment table for them?

Depends on your opponent, but T6 is another favorite of mine. Str 6 helps against the av 12 for space marine drop pods and dreads though. The rest is garbage in my opinion.

T6 is my favorite, but there really aren't any bad options. I even put the Sump on my Haemmy in case I get fleet.

 Jimsolo wrote:
T6 is my favorite, but there really aren't any bad options. I even put the Sump on my Haemmy in case I get fleet.

I could go without shred.... we already have that against t4 and below and those models that are t5 or higher tend to be in smaller squads anyways.

If I have to fight a GC or MC, I'd really like it. Rage is the one that's kinda 'meh' to me.

+1 T is my absolute favorite though.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If I have to fight a GC or MC, I'd really like it. Rage is the one that's kinda 'meh' to me.

+1 T is my absolute favorite though.

Yeah, I would have to agree that the + 1 T or the + 1 Str are probably the best as it means they can't be ID's by Str 10 and/or they don't have to flee in terror from Dreadnoughts. I have a regular opponent who plays Space Wolves and I'm hoping to roll the +1 T against him to help me chew through his TWC PF/TH/SS death star.

But I do agree that Rage is kind of pointless since they already have Rampage. If I had to rank them in order of what I hope to roll, it would be:

1. + 1 T
2. + 1 Str
3. 4+ FNP
4. Fleet
5. Shred
6. Rage

For me Rage would rank higher than Shred as they reroll to wound against a lot of things to begin with.

For my money, it's

Toughness
Strength
FNP
Shred
Fleet
Rage

But none of them disappoint me.

1. +1 toughness/ fnp
2. +1 str
3. Rage
4. Fleet
5. Shred

I believe that it is more important for grotesques to survive than to hit harder. Grotesques benefit from the +1 T or fnp in every phase once they hit the board. Everything else only affects the combat phases.

sweetbacon wrote:
I was wondering if anybody has any suggestions for the optimum Grotesquerie unit size? I am a big fan of Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, but if one isn't going to go full Grot bomb, what is the best squad size for the formation? Two squads of four? Asymmetrical squad sizes, one small squad and one larger squad WWP'd in? Just wanted to hear any recommendations based on experience.

I like to use both units of 3 Grots. This ensures you will essentially always be outnumbered when you charge, so you can get your Rampage on. I've found 3 is enough to do a lot of damage without sinking tons of points into the unit in case they get spanked by some S10 or D shots before they get to do their damage.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
1. +1 toughness/ fnp
2. +1 str
3. Rage
4. Fleet
5. Shred

I believe that it is more important for grotesques to survive than to hit harder. Grotesques benefit from the +1 T or fnp in every phase once they hit the board. Everything else only affects the combat phases.

This is a very good point, I think Grots are underrated in their role as a deadly tarpit unit that will tie up and grind down other tough units over several turns. There pretty much the only DE unit other than Talos that I don't mind going toe to toe with Necron Wraiths.

Dependings on drugs, wyches have a good shot at stalling them. If you can get the +1 T drug, wyches are going to give them headaches. 4++ and FnP is not something the wraiths like.

Beast Packs can force the issue of targeting as well.
~48 S4 attacks on the charge can put a good dent into most necron units, doing it for 120 points with the speed of being a beast is pretty huge.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Dependings on drugs, wyches have a good shot at stalling them. If you can get the +1 T drug, wyches are going to give them headaches. 4++ and FnP is not something the wraiths like.

Beast Packs can force the issue of targeting as well.
~48 S4 attacks on the charge can put a good dent into most necron units, doing it for 120 points with the speed of being a beast is pretty huge.

-Matt

Both are interesting approaches and could be fun to try. I do worry about Leadership with the Wyches though. Unless you stick a Coven Haemie in with them to make them Fearless. As for the Beast Pack, I know that's a lot of attacks, but I've seen Decurion Necron Warriors shrug off an insane amount of damage with only a few casualties. And you'd have the same Leadership issue as Khymera have terrible Leadership. You could put a Beast Master in with them to boost it, but it's still not that great. Plus 5 ++ just isn't that survivable. Sigh. The nerf to Beast Packs really makes it hard to justify taking them over Scourges, RWJ, Reavers, or just more Venoms.

I still love 12 clawed fiends with baharoth leading them lol. It has a weakness to s10 but as long as baharoth is out front you can soak a bit. The thing is usually in combat turn 2 anyway and it hits like a brick. I know it has too many hard counters to be competitive but it is so much fun to run.