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I always do!

What is the best loadout for a ten man wyche squad?

 CKO wrote:
What is the best loadout for a ten man wyche squad?

Its most point efficient to add nothing to them. None of the options are particularly good.

the wych weapons are cheap but you get what you pay for. If you have 5 points to spare and don't know where to spend it then why not zoidbe... hydra gauntlet? Overall though their use is most exemplified by their rules. They are a cheap unit you can throw at a scary unit with low number of attacks and high ap/strength and let their dodge 4++ frustrate the enemy.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
the wych weapons are cheap but you get what you pay for.

Honestly, I'd argue that even 5pts is too much for the pitiful bonuses they grant.

 Jimsolo wrote:

I do. Usually just as two squads of five in venoms, with the haemmy riding in a Raider with the Grotesquerie formation I almost always take.

It allows me to throw some Venom spam on the field, and gives me some fairly durable troops should I need them for mop-up assault work or for securing objectives. If my opponent runs a beatstick HQ, then the Epicurean becomes my Warlord, so I can get VP from dying at his hands, while my Grotesques kill the enemy warlord with overflow wounds. It's usually pretty effective.

Could you post one of your lists?

Wyches pretty much blow.

Academically, however, I think the hydra gauntlets are just slightly better on average than the other two.

I've seen the mathhammer done before, and it varies depending on the drugs you have and the opponent you're up against, but I seem to recall gauntlets having a small margin of advantage in the average situation.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

If i was to use Wyches, I'd say a Hekatrix with an Agoniser is a must. She is overly expensive and not particularly good at what she wants to do, but the unit has no teeth against MEQ without her killing 1 MEQ a turn. Without her you'll find they will rarely manage a single wound, with her you might find you do 2!

If I wanted to use Corpsethief Claw, who would be the best allies to compliment it? Craftworlds for Farseer and Bikes/Hawks and co, Harlequins for Freakshow or DE (Covens for Dark Artisan) and maybe some Scourge and Venoms?

I'd go with Harlequins if you only have one ally. They have the psychic powers plus the attacks/powers that most benefit from the CTC's Freakish Spectacle.

Craftworld Eldar make a string showing, too. A grotesquerie and/or a scalpel squadron complement the army nicely, giving you more Freakish Spectacle bubbles to stack up. Farseer Windrunners can keep pace with the army, and provide some psychic support, including Psychic Shriek, Dominate, and Terrify (so much better with multiple Ld negs in play). Invisible CTCs are the stuff of nightmares.

I've got any ally available, quantity and CtA (only requirement has to be a bound army).

Was thinking CWE, but that requires having to buy a lot of Eldar to compliment it and eh...

Four models is all you need for an Allied detachment (Farseer Skyrunner and Windriders). Two or three of those can really crush an enemy (and his soul). The psychic boons really go well with the Dark Eldar. There's a nice synergy there.

 Frozocrone wrote:
If I wanted to use Corpsethief Claw, who would be the best allies to compliment it? Craftworlds for Farseer and Bikes/Hawks and co, Harlequins for Freakshow or DE (Covens for Dark Artisan) and maybe some Scourge and Venoms?

I would take multiple canoptek harvest formations as allies. They are fast, and fairly tough, and overall good for their points. They can engage and tie up multiple units quickly while the CTC closes to engage.

If I wanted to stick with "eldar race" I think an allied eldar detachment with farseer skyrunner, and wind riders. Would add in a craftworld aspect warhost formation or whatever and take a bunch of hawks/spiders.

Another fun idea would be wraithhost + CTC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Wyches pretty much blow.

Academically, however, I think the hydra gauntlets are just slightly better on average than the other two.

I've seen the mathhammer done before, and it varies depending on the drugs you have and the opponent you're up against, but I seem to recall gauntlets having a small margin of advantage in the average situation.

Yeah IIRC against WS4 T4 hydragauntlets are the best. Shardnet and impaler are very close 2nd and actually equal if the unit does not have +1S or does not have FC.

The Hek upgrade +haywire is often the most cost effecient upgrade, you can throw a grenade and get 1 attack in assault for a decent chance of 2 HPS off a vehicle at least Really the average comes out to be about 1.2HPs between a thrown grenade and assaulting a vehicle if it has WS, and I think 1.5 if the vehicle has no WS stat.

Harlequins work as great allies for wyches, because you can get Hit and Run in the units from the harlequin elite characters. If you take starweavers as FA or whatever, you can put the ICs with a 5 model wyche squad since they have a 6 model transport capacity. HnR is a big deal for wyches because a lot of the PfP results that give combat bonuses are reliant on the models with PfP charging to get the bonus (FC, Rage) This gives you the oppurtunity to disengage an unit on your enemies turn and reassault it. Of course this gives your enemy another chance to overwatch you...

Beastpacks with almost all khymera and some flocks work great with wyches too, they are fast so they can get in and assault first to eat overwatch- are more likely to survive overwatch, and are relatively cheap.

The main problem is once the wyches charge in, even not being overwatched now- they just don't hit that hard until late in the game when they might have FC+Rage+combat drugs- and even thent he Hek needs to be kitted out.

Other than shooting being favored over assault for many editions, wyches are bad at assault. they were bad at assault last DE codex- and they were made worse by removal of Haywire, reduction in power of wyche weapons (yeah they are 5pts less, but they are crap now..) considering many codexes after DE saw weapons go down in cost, and models go down in cost that neither of these happened left wyches in a spot where they are actually worse now than they have ever been.

Wyches are good in assault in some circumstances though:

1) Against MCs, Dreads, TH/SS Termis with low volume of attacks, your opponent doesn't want to get them tangled up with Wyches.

2) If they get the right combat drug.

3) Later in the game when PfP is kickin'. 4++ FnP + furious charge + combat drugs = excellent CC unit for 10 points

The problem is you often need to assault them turn 2 before PfP is in full gear...

 Frozocrone wrote:
If I wanted to use Corpsethief Claw, who would be the best allies to compliment it? Craftworlds for Farseer and Bikes/Hawks and co, Harlequins for Freakshow or DE (Covens for Dark Artisan) and maybe some Scourge and Venoms?

I've run the CtC + Dark Artisan with Spirit Probe (with the Haemie's WL trait that let's the Talos re-roll 1's on FNP) and those two units working together are almost unkillable unless you're facing D-weapon spam or Grav spam. Other than that, everything else will bounce off of it. And then they start killing stuff.

Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

 vipoid wrote:
Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

My two large grotesques squads won't care.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

My two large grotesques squads won't care.

They'll care when overwatch hits them at full BS.

Now Medusae, they really won't care, especially with a WWP caddy and a raider. Hello bikes, have some AP3 templates.

Though that assumes your opponent only has one bike squad that needs killing.

I certainly don't see that squad surviving to get a second chance.

 vipoid wrote:
Though that assumes your opponent only has one bike squad that needs killing.

I certainly don't see that squad surviving to get a second chance.

But surely its cheap enough that your medusae and WWP will be cheaper than the bike unit you just erased. Personally, with all the new SM love and dex's I think its fair to say AP3 ignores cover is going to potent in the coming meta. Couple that with some dark reapers, then those land speeders are also in trouble

As for full BS overwatch, stuff like banshee mask? oh no overwatch? dang!

Solar Shock wrote:
But surely its cheap enough that your medusae and WWP will be cheaper than the bike unit you just erased.

I'm not so sure.

You're talking minimum 95pts for an Archon with WWP. Then at least 3 Medusae (unless you only want to kill 1/3 of the bike squad). So, you're already up to 170. Then you'll likely want a Raider (both to protect and move the squad, and to allow you to properly aim their templates), which brings them up to 225, as an absolute minimum.

At the very least, I don't see you coming out ahead.

Solar Shock wrote:
Couple that with some dark reapers, then those land speeders are also in trouble

As for full BS overwatch, stuff like banshee mask? oh no overwatch? dang!

I see we're back to Eldar allies. Yey...

 vipoid wrote:

I'm not so sure.

You're talking minimum 95pts for an Archon with WWP. Then at least 3 Medusae (unless you only want to kill 1/3 of the bike squad). So, you're already up to 170. Then you'll likely want a Raider (both to protect and move the squad, and to allow you to properly aim their templates), which brings them up to 225, as an absolute minimum.

At the very least, I don't see you coming out ahead.

I see we're back to Eldar allies. Yey...

But you just said that you wouldn't expect them to survive the following turn, so why are you spending all those extra points on a transport etc. Yeh it would be useful, if they did survive, but there are various ways to run a suicide squad. Personally, i'd probably consider dropping the WWP caddy and simply stick them in a venom, then you can simply either run them on the board as a distraction/focus unit, or DS them. Yeh you still have the chance to scatter etc, but for the cost (venom and 3 medusae = 130 points minimum) you have a throw away unit that you can use to clear out quite a potent unit. I mean if I came against some DA list where he had a powerful HQ in a bike squad, having a throw away unit that can remove the HQs retinue allowing you to then lay volumes of poison into whatever remains sounds good to me.

I'd probably run two for redundancy, but AP3 ignores cover I feel is going to be a very useful with the rise of SM units.

As for allies, I highly expect to be seeing players running various formations from across the SM factions, so competitively I dont think you can afford to be against allies simply because it sucks (although it certainly does suck! and I completely agree But tactically wise thats how i'd deal with DA)

Solar Shock wrote:

But you just said that you wouldn't expect them to survive the following turn, so why are you spending all those extra points on a transport etc.

Because a transport at least forces your opponent to deal with them. If they don't have a transport then they're a lot easier to just ignore (since they're going to be spending the rest of the game moving 12", and trying to catch units that move 12+").

Solar Shock wrote:
Personally, i'd probably consider dropping the WWP caddy and simply stick them in a venom, then you can simply either run them on the board as a distraction/focus unit, or DS them.

Fair enough, but wasn't it you who suggested the WWP in the first place?

Solar Shock wrote:

I'd probably run two for redundancy, but AP3 ignores cover I feel is going to be a very useful with the rise of SM units.

If you did that, what would you use for your warlord?

 vipoid wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

I'd probably run two for redundancy, but AP3 ignores cover I feel is going to be a very useful with the rise of SM units.

If you did that, what would you use for your warlord?

The farseer ally?

BAHAHAH! +1^^^

Yeh i agree, a venom would seriously help amplify their threat potential, just hope you get some lucky jinks?
Indeed, pinpoint WWP is so powerful with templates but you were right on the money with a 100 point tax being a little pricey for a one trick poney. I think going venoms is far superior in terms of efficiency, not only can you jink, you can shoot and hopefully if you survive, next turn melt more face. Compared to a WWP caddy the 55 points goes much further.

Warlord wise i'd probably have a haemy in the grotesquerie, but only because ive been converting my grotesquerie for so long to not use it would be ridiculous

Shrine dark reapers in a raider are still my top answer to any bike in the game.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Shrine dark reapers in a raider are still my top answer to any bike in the game.

Speaking of which, having some jet-lag induced insomnia and came up with this while trying (and failing) to fall asleep.

Not sure it's actually legal tho, but I think so? Had been reading the skyhammer formation thread and all the complaining about scatterbikes and the new DA bikes...

RSR
Archon
WWP

9x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR

Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS

Venom w scannon
Venom w scannon
Venom w scannon

Eldar AD
Autarch

5x Rangers

Aspect host
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch

Aspect host
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot

= 1849 pts

Fire dragons go in the venoms
Reapers in the Night shield raiders

(Could alternatively ditch the night shields and kit out the autarch with power lance, banshee mask, fusion guns and wings, and have him jump around all willy nilly, and if we did so, presumably let one of the Dark Reaper exarchs be our Warlord)

Autarch is there for reserve rolls in case we face skyhammer or have to go 2nd vs something shooty, rangers so we can deploy something T1.
Everything can deep strike if we want/need to. Got 9 skimmers, 21 long-mid range s8 shots (6 lances, 3 blasters, 12 starshot) spread across 12 units, 15 melta shots, 6 splinter cannons, and 29-58 twinlinked splinter rifle shots depending on range.

This isn't something I'll be fielding anytime soon, just my no-sleep brain couldn't let the idea go and it looks really solid to me. Anti-infantry, check. Anti-mech, double check. No true ignores cover but it ignores the most important form (jink). Maybe a bit questionable on the anti-air front.

Trystis wrote:

 CKO wrote:
What is the best loadout for a ten man wyche squad?

Its most point efficient to add nothing to them. None of the options are particularly good.

I think getting an agonizer in there is a good option. At least it's always worked out well for me.

number9dream wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Shrine dark reapers in a raider are still my top answer to any bike in the game.

Speaking of which, having some jet-lag induced insomnia and came up with this while trying (and failing) to fall asleep.

Not sure it's actually legal tho, but I think so? Had been reading the skyhammer formation thread and all the complaining about scatterbikes and the new DA bikes...

RSR
Archon
WWP
Venom w scannon

9x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR

Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS

Venom w scannon
Venom w scannon

Eldar AD
Autarch

5x Rangers

Aspect host
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch

Aspect host
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot

= 1849 pts

Fire dragons go in the venoms
Reapers in the Night shield raiders

(Could alternatively ditch the night shields and kit out the autarch with power lance, banshee mask, fusion guns and wings, and have him jump around all willy nilly, and if we did so, presumably let one of the Dark Reaper exarchs be our Warlord)

Autarch is there for reserve rolls in case we face skyhammer or have to go 2nd vs something shooty, rangers so we can deploy something T1.
Everything can deep strike if we want/need to. Got 9 skimmers, 21 long-mid range s8 shots (6 lances, 3 blasters, 12 starshot) spread across 12 units, 15 melta shots, 6 splinter cannons, and 29-58 twinlinked splinter rifle shots depending on range.

This isn't something I'll be fielding anytime soon, just my no-sleep brain couldn't let the idea go and it looks really solid to me. Anti-infantry, check. Anti-mech, double check. No true ignores cover but it ignores the most important form (jink). Maybe a bit questionable on the anti-air front.

Solid list. Shift the Archons venom to fast attack. He won't fit with the fire dragons, and they cannot start in it, as it's his dedicated transport. I'd ditch a squad of warriors, and bring something more useful, like 5 grotesques (joined by webway archon and autarch)


-Matt

Briefly forgot I had 6 fast attack slots Thx. Also blanked on the fact that starweavers have a 6 man transport capacity while venoms dont...

Grotesques are a good idea as well, might make the archon and autarch not completely dead weight.

Feel like there's a good chance there'll be a new edition out before/if I ever build this tho