Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A Space Marine can run 10 meters, vault a control table, and grab a man in the time it takes for that man's heart to beat once.

And Dark Eldar are even faster.

Dancing around lasfire should be easy enough.

Yeah, but against a prepared Imperial Guard position... you sort of run out of places to dodge to when the air is filled with Lasgun fire. Not to mention crewed weapons like Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Mortars (Which would ignore the Dark Eldar's reflexes. Can't dodge a blast once it's hit) and Missile Launchers. Guard can do Dakka once they are in place. Dark Eldar cannot take Dakka.

Well, DE tend not to attack places like that.

Here's a fun quote from the AM codex (IG codex for the old schoolers)

"Where xenos craft dance and flit with incredible grace, the guns of the Imperial Guard will blacken the sky to to point that no amount of acrobatics can save them"

Also, Wydrvane Psykers have been mentioned to literally cause DE to burst into flames when they attack IG companies.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Well, DE tend not to attack places like that.

Yep. I would think they rarely feth around with heavily fortified worlds unless they have something specific that they want (Like how Lady Malys wanted that STC thingie).

Back water Agri-worlds are probably their main source of slaves.

This is how, in Noise Marine style

The Dark Eldar are, in the fluff, ridiculously fast. Combine this with the fact that they are so good at what they do that they have no problem dropping out of the webway behind the lines of a combat and capturing imperial citizens by the hundreds before anyone can even notice, and you have a very real threat. I think the DE that get into combat even only do so because either A) Something went wrong or B) They are bored and want to flex nuts just for their own amusement. They are fast enough that taking out an unprepared marine in close combat is not much of a problem for a wych. They're more than capable of driving poisoned blades in the joints of power armor while the marine can only react. That said, there's a few times I've read where marines seemed to get a LOT of satisfaction out of grabbing ahold of them after they get too into what they're doing and blunder

I consider Marines about equal with Dark Eldar warriors in battle. The Dark Eldar is so damn fast so the Marine just can't get a hold on him, but the Marine is so damn tough the DEldar just can't get him down.

Kabalite Warrior =< Wych =< Marine =< Incubi

Again, burst into fething flames from the warp

You realize psykers do that to everybody right? It's called psykic powers.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I consider Marines about equal with Dark Eldar warriors in battle. The Dark Eldar is so damn fast so the Marine just can't get a hold on him, but the Marine is so damn tough the DEldar just can't get him down.

Kabalite Warrior =< Wych =< Marine =< Incubi

Actually there are instances where a Space Marine has held his own in close combat with a Dark Eldar. Not just any Dark Eldar in fact- Lelith Hesperax! For 6 hourslol.

Which one?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Which one?

It's in the new codex- I think it was Iron Skulls chapter captain?

Well that makes sense.
I thought you were talking about a run-of-the-mill marine.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Which one?

It's in the new codex- I think it was Iron Skulls chapter captain?

Agreed, it makes complete sense that DE vs SM melee would take ages. One is too damn fast, and one is too damn tough.

Certainly, if the Marine is not just a Tactical with a chainsword but rather something more specialised, the odds start to shift in his favour.

Admittedly, the guy was a badass who had never lost a duel at the Feast of Blades. But still, Captains aren't that different from rank and file marines. More EXPERIENCED most definitely.

Experience is the only thing that separates experts from masters.

The Dark Eldar aren't impossible to predict - there have been occasions where their raids have walked into heavier resistance than expected and in extreme cases walked into a flat-out ambush.

In one example in the previous Dark Eldar codex, a Kabal raid bursts into real-space going "Hahahahaha!" only to find that an extremely devious inquisitor had spotted their raiding patterns and figured out where they were going to hit next.

This resulted in the raid swiftly yelling "Ballsballsballsballs!" and exploding a lot as he'd deployed a sizeable Deathwatch contingent and massed swiftly installed quad-gun batteries in concealed positions around the 'helpless' planetary capital.

Admittedly, the Kabal had him brutally murdered by Mandrake assassins to pay him back, but that's not the point....



As to 'never attacking defended positions', the Dark Eldar do it all the time. One of the first bits of Dark Eldar fluff ever - in the original 3rd edition codex - had them attacking a literal fortress emplacement defended by guardsmen.

Fist Of Demetrius has them boarding and attacking Macharius' flagship.

There are three things to bear in mind:

1) If raiding for slaves/prisoners, the quality of the prize depends on the risks you take.

Capturing Cletus and his half-dozen inbred relatives from the Agri-world Assendofnowhere VIII might be easy, but it also won't earn you many brownie points with Vect. Siezing meaningful quantities of slaves means hitting a hive city.

Siezing slaves you can sell for noticeable profit per head to the arenas or the haemonculus means capturing good-quality stock, which means attacking Guard or Tempestus units, Sororitas convents, even Astartes.

2) Sometimes, someone just has to die
Dark Eldar are moody, vengeful, often petty sorts. If an individual has offended them, they may well attack them directly.

Far better to hit a navy base in a surprise attack and blow up the fleet in the yards than find a navy warship turn up unexpectedly overhead during a raid.

If looking to scour an entire planet's population - millions, or even billions, even for dark eldar that'll take time. You need to slice up the defenders first.

Nothing brings about fear like watching heroes die
If the Dark Eldar are going to attack a city, the fastest way to have the population cowering in terror rather than realisng they still outnumber the point-haired goths hundreds of thousands to one is to hit the best defended position, manned by their best troops, and murder them in the most horrific manner imaginable - then scatter identifiable bodyparts through the rest of the city to make a point.

Why shouldn't I
Probably the most important reason - Dark Eldar - especially the nobility of Commorragh - are well educated and tactically adept. They know not to split their forces when faced with a superior enemy, or to assault a superior enemy in a defensible position. However, they also have a level of arrogance bordering on monomanaical (from the far side), which makes it nigh-impossible for them to acknowledge any Mon-Keigh force as superior, no matter the difference in odds or firepower. Quite often, the Dark Eldar will be brought to battle because they probably didn't see the defenders as being any realistic threat to them...

That, and it's quite hard to perminately kill DE.

a Dark eldar raid is never going to go into a full gun n flak line unless its gone very badly wrong. the massed guns of a large force could fill the air with so much las. explosive and shells they would be torn to shreds.

never going to take a fortress full on frontal assault wise with no trickery or deceptions but outlying towns, bases, and settlements, luring IG patrols out to investigate a lost contact outpost or such. perfect lower risk way to get captives.

if the dark eldar wanted to take the fortress they would have a plan, not a foolish charge on its outer defences at there strongest but infiltration, trickery, deceptions and all manner of non conventional combat methods.

The fact that BDSM Eldar exist at all in 40k is stupid, but then there's the Tau empire...


All in all, it's dependent on what the writer's want to show off. Want to show how sneaky the Raven Guard are? Write about an entire cabal getting annihilated when they attack a supposed unprepared hive city, only to find the Raven Guard waiting. Want the Guard to appear not as a slow-to-hit sledgehammer? Talk about CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED being a tactical genius and outwitting them at every turn.

Want the Dark Eldar to be scary? Don't fill their codex with a bunch of losses like the ones described above.

Really, they're more like 50 Shades of Grey Eldar than BDSM Eldar...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Really, they're more like 50 Shades of Grey Eldar than BDSM Eldar...

I'd rather have the BDSM to be honest. Eldar pre-fall seemed like a fun crowd.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Really, they're more like 50 Shades of Grey Eldar than BDSM Eldar...

Nah. GW is too PG for that. They're more like Hot Topic Eldar.

What makes DE scary to me is that they have Eldar gear and tactics but are willing and able to take guard level losses to achieve an objective and not care.

Cloning power max.

2x210 wrote:
Haha DE raiding a tomb world that would go well......

it would, if the DE want something there bad enough, they would commit the resources necessary to ensure it steamrolls the resistance. They are the eldar from before the fall, they know the necrons well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
a Dark eldar raid is never going to go into a full gun n flak line unless its gone very badly wrong. the massed guns of a large force could fill the air with so much las. explosive and shells they would be torn to shreds.

never going to take a fortress full on frontal assault wise with no trickery or deceptions but outlying towns, bases, and settlements, luring IG patrols out to investigate a lost contact outpost or such. perfect lower risk way to get captives.

if the dark eldar wanted to take the fortress they would have a plan, not a foolish charge on its outer defences at there strongest but infiltration, trickery, deceptions and all manner of non conventional combat methods.

I agree they would always use trickery or deception if possible, but frontal assaults are somethign they do too. They just tend to use speed and force concentration to it's extreme.

If you hit a heavily defended fortress fast and with surprise, you can defeat it before most of it's defenses can be brought to bare. Concentrate forces enough and most of the guns and units have nothing to shoot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:


The problem though is when it comes to actual pitched battles with armies like the Imperial Guard, there should be so much firepower being thrown up that it should be like trying to dodge rain. Each individual shot or raindrop might have a low chance of hitting, but there can be so many that there can be a point where it is physically impossible to dodge them all simply due to the lack of available space between shots. Similarly it is impossible for a human to dodge drenching rain even if they could perceive each drop moving in slow motion, simply because there is not enough space to fit a human body between all the drops no matter how you contort or twist.

Pitched battles yes, but DE will attack well defended positions of concentrated IG. They will just attack with the element of surprise. Many of the big guns will be being services or repaired. Others will not be manned at present. The ones that are manned will take time to warm up and aimed. By the time the big guns start firing the DE could have done considerable damage.

Think about the Japanese attack on pearl harbor. Pearl was one of the most heavily defended harbors in the world. The Japanese had surprise, attacked at the right time(sunday morning) and they attacked fast. They got what they wanted.
Eventually though the attack waves were pushed back. The Japanese considered attacking the following days and hoping to get the US carriers but they considered it too risky, once the US military was awake and prepared, they dared not continue their assault.

Scions were able to counter ambush a DE party, slowing them down and allowing the IG to muster.

After that the two forces were able to boot the DE out of the planet and the system.

Its not easy, but its doable if you have the right tools working together. Yay cooperation!

TheCustomLime wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Really, they're more like 50 Shades of Grey Eldar than BDSM Eldar...

Nah. GW is too PG for that. They're more like Hot Topic Eldar.

Let me clarify.

50 Shades of Grey is an attempt by someone with no real knowledge of the subject to cash in on BDSM edginess while writing something that the vast majority of BDSM lifestylers find abhorrent and insulting.

Dark Eldar are much the same. Saying DEldar are BDSM space elves is like saying Pinhead's Cenobytes are trustworthy dominants. There's a passing resemblance, but mistaking one for the other will get any hopeful sub brutally eviscerated and drown them in regret.

Well that makes sense.
I thought you were talking about a run-of-the-mill marine.

Knight Lords trilogy potential spoiler ...

I consider Marines about equal with Dark Eldar warriors in battle. The Dark Eldar is so damn fast so the Marine just can't get a hold on him, but the Marine is so damn tough the DEldar just can't get him down.

I could be remembering this wrong as it's been a while since I read it, but that's pretty close to what happens at one point in the Word Bearer's trilogy. The WB are skulking about on some back water planet (most of them in TDA IIRC) and they unknowingly blunder into a DE raid. The DE set up multiple ambushes and harass them but are unable to do much damage while the WB are able to walk through a good portion of the assaults but don't have much luck in killing many of the DE in return. The DE were consistantly picking the time/place of the battle but coudln't turn it into anything. The WB were constantly blind-sided, but were little more than annoyed by the assaults.

Tycho wrote:

Well that makes sense.
I thought you were talking about a run-of-the-mill marine.

Knight Lords trilogy potential spoiler ...

Spoiler:

Talos also has a running battle with Jain Zar at one point in the Knight Lords books. I realize she's Craftworld and that he had a little help in the end, but the fact that he survived at all in combat with a frickin Pheonix Lord tells me it's not out of the question that a Marine could handle a Kabalite or even a regular witch in CC.

I am sorry, but i read this and was appalled by this. The plot armour was through the roof, Phoenix Lords are Primarch level characters and Jain Zar was stated to be one of the most martially skilled, she should of shredded Talos without breaking a sweat. A Phoenix Lord are faster then a Marine to a degree that is simply unfair, they carry weaponry that will shred their armour and each has literately thousands of years of experience, not to mention super natural powers. I was extremely disappointed with this, which just showed her to be a glorified Exarch. It was a shame, the rest of the trilogy was so good, but this showed Aaron had read little of the source material

As for Dark Eldar not having full combat assualts, while they prefer unarmed opponents, they are still Eldar and still able to win all out assaults. They just have different tactics, they will apply a hell'a lot of fire power into one area, usually where the enemy is weakest, to crack them open. They still have the second best tech in the universe (behind Necrons) and everything will of been planned to the letter. Don't be mistaken, A Dark Eldar vs Guard fight would either be a massacre, or it wouldn't happen more likely then not.

I am sorry, but i read this and was appalled by this. The plot armour was through the roof, Phoenix Lords are Primarch level characters and Jain Zar was stated to be one of the most martially skilled, she should of shredded Talos without breaking a sweat. A Phoenix Lord are faster then a Marine to a degree that is simply unfair, they carry weaponry that will shred their armour and each has literately thousands of years of experience, not to mention super natural powers. I was extremely disappointed with this, which just showed her to be a glorified Exarch. It was a shame, the rest of the trilogy was so good, but this showed Aaron had read little of the source material

Well I guess my spoiler tag is redundant now ... lol

As for Dark Eldar not having full combat assualts, while they prefer unarmed opponents, they are still Eldar and still able to win all out assaults. They just have different tactics, they will apply a hell'a lot of fire power into one area, usually where the enemy is weakest, to crack them open. They still have the second best tech in the universe (behind Necrons) and everything will of been planned to the letter. Don't be mistaken, A Dark Eldar vs Guard fight would either be a massacre, or it wouldn't happen more likely then not.

Thing is, according to the fluff, a DE raid is pretty much impossible to defeat because they can pick their battles and stack the cards. I didn't say the example I gave was the only possible outcome ... I was just pointing out something that happened in the fluff that backed up someone else's thought. I think the WB example I give is actually a pretty interesting example because I think it's one of the only times/reasons SM (or CSM in this example) would really even encounter DE. Basically ... by accident. I can't see the DE deliberately picking too many fights with marines. I mean after all, didn't like, a handfull of squads basically hold off half of Gomorrah at one point ... lol