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Hey guys,

I've been wondering for years why people insist that the LRC is better than the Redeemer. Sure, it can bring more models, but were you ever going to bring 8 Terminators? Not very likely imo. And while a common argument is that Redeemer range = melta range, doesn't the same count for the Crusader? You have to be at least within 12" for optimum effect, and any infantry unit will then move 6" and be within melta range. Furthermore, while you can shoot some stuff before you get within 12", your main point with the Land Raider is probably to get close and deliver a death-star so that won't be a gamechanger either.

I hope you guys can answer my question.

You can put 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes in it

It doesnt occupy a Heavy Support slot

It is objective secured.

These are the 3 advantages it has over the other variants for BT:CT players.

As for the other CTs...yeah, youre right the Crusader doesn't have much going for it, not even for Imperial Fists because Bolter drill doesnt affect vehicles.

Yeah for Black Templars (and Dark Angels with that fancy banner) it's pretty awesome. For me as an ultramarines/imperial fists player though... meh

Because it's the least worst Land Raider available, it's also the only Land Raider that understands what it wants, and that's to give itself frag grenades to the assaulting unit, have close range weapons to act as supporting fire to when it has delivered its payload, thus has the right weapons for said job. The others either have long range lascanons on and an overpriced platform or weapons that has puny range, can't snap fire and really can't support its own assault unit, because its weapons properly overlaps with the disembarked unit or then it has to hit some else nearby and 90% of time the other flamed never fires or even both.
LRC has TL on all its stock weapons and can be used against many targets, adding the dirt cheap melta (that compliments its range perfectly), you can switch targets to light armor with the assault cannon and since the vehicle is close quarter, you could even hope for high armored profiles! Since the LRC understands that it wants to act as an actual assault carrier transport, it even had the courtesy of increasing its capacity, adding flexibility to its loadout. Jump pack vanguards, crusader squads, bloodclaws with priests and 2 wolves, terminators and what not.

It's partially because the flamestorm cannon is too good. If you get a chance to shoot it, then it'll probably roast the squad you were hoping to charge anyway, whereas the Crusader can realistically go after different targets from further away.

Snap firing's another problem. I used to run a Redeemer in 5th ed, but in 6th I quickly switched back to Crusaders because of this problem.

Finally, I almost never got to fire the flamer anyway. I ran a Redeemer a dozen times and might have gotten 2 or 3 shots off with it. I'd rather take my 10pts and at least get a chance to take a shot every game.

The regular Landraider's weapons loadout is nonsensical. More often than not you can't shoot both Lascannons at the same target, or can't turn the Heavy Bolter far enough to shoot at a prefered target, or are out of range to use the Multimelta. It's 10 man transport size means you can't fit a 5 terminators + an independent character.

The Redeemer is better. It's main weapons (the assault cannon and flamestorm cannons) are short ranged S6 AP4 weapons, so you can efficiently focus on the same target. That also means you're free to use PotMS on the multimelta, and you will usually be close enough to have a good target. Flamestorms are a bit wonky use, as you'll often get into situations where you can't shoot one of them (can't snap-fire templates), and so it's not perfect. The 12 man capacity is great, as it means you can take 5 terminators + an IC or two.

The Crusader has two advantages of the Redeemer. The 16 man capacity opens up tons of interesting possibilities as a transport - 15 man Crusader squads /w an IC, giant terminator blobs, 6 independent characters in terminator armor, Honor Guard deathstars with Calgar, etc. Beyond that, the Hurricane Bolters are fairly good weapons. They're much more reliable than flamestorm cannons, being able to put out damage every turn (even if you're snap firing, them being twin-linked and all). It's usually possible to actually fire both of them at the same time against enemy infantry, and 12 twin linked bolter shots followed up by 4 twin linked assault cannon shots and a Multimelta is not half bad for 250 points.

If the flamestorm cannons were Torrent, it would be a no-brainer. But as they're not... LRC it is

 Vector Strike wrote:
If the flamestorm cannons were Torrent, it would be a no-brainer. But as they're not... LRC it is

I actually fully expected it to be so, when I was waiting for the new SM codex. It wasn't even like I was hoping for it, I fully expected it because I saw no reason for that model to cost 240+ points with weapons it can't use.

You guys are insane. Two torrent flamestorm cannons would be the most overpowered thing ever.

You are paying 250 points to get a 14/14/14 vehicle that doesnt blow up when assaulted by normal guys (like most other vehicles, even Leman Russes do) and has a transport capacity on top of that, and the ability to move 6" and fire 2 heavy weapons at different targets at normal BS.

Personally I think the Phobos LR is good because SM have no problems laying the hurt to infantry, but usually lack AT.

 Sir Arun wrote:
You guys are insane. Two torrent flamestorm cannons would be the most overpowered thing ever.

You are paying 250 points to get a 14/14/14 vehicle that doesnt blow up when assaulted by normal guys (like most other vehicles, even Leman Russes do) and has a transport capacity on top of that, and the ability to move 6" and fire 2 heavy weapons at different targets at normal BS.

Personally I think the Phobos LR is good because SM have no problems laying the hurt to infantry, but usually lack AT.

250 points with no acces to dozer blades, large profile makes it hard to get cover (although Rhinos do that just fine and even cheap) and it can get 1 shot by melta, las cannon and Wraith Knight guns also makes short work of most Land Raiders.

Edit: 2x las predators is 280 points for 6 las cannon shots, vs 2 for 250?

 Zewrath wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
You guys are insane. Two torrent flamestorm cannons would be the most overpowered thing ever.

You are paying 250 points to get a 14/14/14 vehicle that doesnt blow up when assaulted by normal guys (like most other vehicles, even Leman Russes do) and has a transport capacity on top of that, and the ability to move 6" and fire 2 heavy weapons at different targets at normal BS.

Personally I think the Phobos LR is good because SM have no problems laying the hurt to infantry, but usually lack AT.

250 points with no acces to dozer blades, large profile makes it hard to get cover (although Rhinos do that just fine and even cheap) and it can get 1 shot by melta, las cannon and Wraith Knight guns also makes short work of most Land Raiders.

Edit: 2x las predators is 280 points for 6 las cannon shots, vs 2 for 250?

those las predators have AV10 at the back, AV 11 at the sides, still one point lower AV at the front, no transport capacity, take up 2 HS slots, and if they both move, their firepower is only marginally better (2 extra snapshotting lascannons) than the LR's. And they're 30 points costlier.

The best part of a land raider crusader is that it frees up lascannon bitz to be sold on the internet to people who want their land raider to be more than an AV14 rhino.

The lower strength of the hurrican bolters used to make a difference in earlier editions. nowadays, it is as "meh" as the other two.

I think both are very good for what they do. The crusader carries all those assault terminators plus can unload a good amount of close range anti infantry while being iron hard. It can pop off its multimelta at vehicles.

Zewrath wrote:Because it's the least worst Land Raider available, it's also the only Land Raider that understands what it wants, and that's to give itself frag grenades to the assaulting unit, have close range weapons to act as supporting fire to when it has delivered its payload, thus has the right weapons for said job.

Since the LRC understands that it wants to act as an actual assault carrier transport, it even had the courtesy of increasing its capacity, adding flexibility to its loadout. Jump pack vanguards, crusader squads, bloodclaws with priests and 2 wolves, terminators and what not.

Another way of saying the same thing is "because it's a land raider that was designed for a 28mm six-turn warhammer game on a 6x4 board."

The space marines use land raiders to drop miles away from a target, to transport a squad for a hundred miles under 500 feet of ocean, fight a tank battle completely unsupported except by a second of two land raiders, then deliver two combat squads of marines that can fight through terrain.

The crusader/redeemer exist to drive 24 inches and have the "assault vehicle" USR.

Saying the that the Crusader is the "best" is like complaining that the Land Raider Achilles (the thunderfire hull mount and multi-melta sponsons one) is terrible, even though it is completely perfect for use by the Imperial Fists who invented it.

DanielBeaver wrote:The regular Landraider's weapons loadout is nonsensical. More often than not you can't shoot both Lascannons at the same target, or can't turn the Heavy Bolter far enough to shoot at a prefered target, or are out of range to use the Multimelta. It's 10 man transport size means you can't fit a 5 terminators + an independent character.

The regular Land Raider's "weapons loadout" is the best damn armament you could want if space marines were real things and had to take land raiders on campaigns.

I don't think you'd say this at all if the lascannon could kill more than one space marine with each shot. Actually, I don't think the Crusader would exist as more than a curiosity if that were true. Are you telling me that a lascannon shot can't melt through a single guardsman and kill the guardsman behind him? That the violent interaction of the laser and the guardsman doesn't sear the armor and flesh off of the guy next to him?

The rules say they can't.

Yeah, "frag launchers," that's why you like them.

Actually, for Dark Angels the Redeemer is a somewhat attractive choice now.
The simple fact that you can equip it with a PFG and the new vehicle damage table make it very tough to take down. 4++ AV 14 reroll the Explodes! give it a good bit of survivability. Usually you'd kill it before it can do much due to the range. With this however, while costly, you survive long enough to put out some shots and have a dangerous pillowbox in the enemy lines that you can't ignore forever.
Crusaders aren't dangerous enough, but the Redeemer absorbs shots since it is a threat and survives to tell the tale.

Regular Land Raider wasn't too bad before because you could drive forward and shoot dangerous stuff, drop your unit and then (if you still survived), drive away and keep killing stuff. This meant that the opponent had to concentrate on it even after it dropped it's unit - Crusader is much less dangerous in this respect. Also, in 5th edition Space Marines Codex, the regular Land Raider had carrying capacity of 12.

However with current rules, Lascannons suck, so there goes its major selling point. Another thing is that in 5th edition, 5 Assault Terminators were actually often all you needed, for example Lightning Claw Terminators were badass against Orks. Nowadays, they're much less useful.

Backfire wrote:
Regular Land Raider wasn't too bad before because you could drive forward and shoot dangerous stuff, drop your unit and then (if you still survived), drive away and keep killing stuff. This meant that the opponent had to concentrate on it even after it dropped it's unit - Crusader is much less dangerous in this respect. Also, in 5th edition Space Marines Codex, the regular Land Raider had carrying capacity of 12.

However with current rules, Lascannons suck, so there goes its major selling point. Another thing is that in 5th edition, 5 Assault Terminators were actually often all you needed, for example Lightning Claw Terminators were badass against Orks. Nowadays, they're much less useful.

The 5 assault terminators had few, but precious attack, so most people used Chaplains to escort the Assault Terminators.
5th edition was parking lot edition and focus was to kill metal bawkses and the two other variants sucked at that.

 Zewrath wrote:

The 5 assault terminators had few, but precious attack, so most people used Chaplains to escort the Assault Terminators.
5th edition was parking lot edition and focus was to kill metal bawkses and the two other variants sucked at that.

Later on, yes, but early on 5th edition was about Orks and Assault termies were important putting down the Ork menace, particularly Nob Bikers.

Backfire wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

The 5 assault terminators had few, but precious attack, so most people used Chaplains to escort the Assault Terminators.
5th edition was parking lot edition and focus was to kill metal bawkses and the two other variants sucked at that.

Later on, yes, but early on 5th edition was about Orks and Assault termies were important putting down the Ork menace, particularly Nob Bikers.

Kindda' pointless tbh. Early 6th edition was plasma spam and necron crossaint edition, that changed drastically when other codices finally got updated to 6th edition.
Assault termies needed to instagib the Nob Bikers who had T4(5) and thus those hammers needed the reroll from either the chaplain or Vul'Kan.

Well, I have a real liking for the Redeemer, but that was because of one battle. I have not repeated this, but it was still glorious.

In one game I managed to get Njal's Redeemer right up against a line Khorne Bearzerkers. Allowing me to get both Flamestorm Cannons off catching the outer edges of the Squad. Then after feeding them Both Flamestorm Cannons, The Assault Cannons and the Storm Bolters killing of most of the Squad. Then I fired the Multi-Melta into the Chaos Dreadnaught behind the squad causing it to Explode in 6” Fire Ball killing off another 6 Bearzerkers in the explosion.]
AV14 Charge: Just move 12” on Turn-1 one and pop smoke. If you have 2-3 of them you opponent may need new undergarments.

I always thought the PotMS was put there because the sponsons had problems lining up against the same target.
So, whatever is on one side of the vehicle takes the brunt of the firepower, and the PotMS fires at the other side.
Doesn't it also allow a template to fire (or fire at full BS) no matter what speed the vehicle moves at?

 Skinnereal wrote:
I always thought the PotMS was put there because the sponsons had problems lining up against the same target.
So, whatever is on one side of the vehicle takes the brunt of the firepower, and the PotMS fires at the other side.
Doesn't it also allow a template to fire (or fire at full BS) no matter what speed the vehicle moves at?

Yes, but PotMS was part of the original Land Raider before the LRC and LRR if IIRC.

Probably so, but whether it is useful for templates, it's still the main reason for the PotMS, I thought.
As for which is better, flamers makes more sense for an assault vehicle.

Any way, the FW Land Raiders seem even more useless than the old Godhammer. Helios has Whirlwind rockets? Seems kinda silly idea to put them in a Land Raider. And Achilles is just daft as a concept and in execution.

 Ailaros wrote:
The best part of a land raider crusader is that it frees up lascannon bitz to be sold on the internet to people who want their land raider to be more than an AV14 rhino.

Or to convert yourself a vendetta.

 Thairne wrote:
Actually, for Dark Angels the Redeemer is a somewhat attractive choice now.
The simple fact that you can equip it with a PFG and the new vehicle damage table make it very tough to take down. 4++ AV 14 reroll the Explodes! give it a good bit of survivability. Usually you'd kill it before it can do much due to the range. With this however, while costly, you survive long enough to put out some shots and have a dangerous pillowbox in the enemy lines that you can't ignore forever.
Crusaders aren't dangerous enough, but the Redeemer absorbs shots since it is a threat and survives to tell the tale.

Actually, with the Standard of Devastation, a DA Crusader is much more dangerous, as the Hurricane Bolters become Salvo 2/4, making them 12 TL shots per Hurricane at 24".

Backfire wrote:
And Achilles is just daft as a concept and in execution.

but how can you mean by "daft as a concept?" The concept is meant for playing a game on a 12' x 12' table for 17 turns against multiple Bastion fortifications. For doing that, it seems like a really good concept.

Whereas the Crusader, in that situation, just derps along the battlefield for four turns, not getting to shoot at anything while it takes Vanquisher rounds to the face.

The "execution" was bad for the Achilles in that they made it for a game that is way to small for it.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Backfire wrote:
And Achilles is just daft as a concept and in execution.

but how can you mean by "daft as a concept?" The concept is meant for playing a game on a 12' x 12' table for 17 turns against multiple Bastion fortifications. For doing that, it seems like a really good concept.

Whereas the Crusader, in that situation, just derps along the battlefield for four turns, not getting to shoot at anything while it takes Vanquisher rounds to the face.

The "execution" was bad for the Achilles in that they made it for a game that is way to small for it.

The Achilles is pretty awesome in my opinion, but at 3x the cost of a Thunderfire it's probably just too expensive for the job. Way more survivable though.

The Achilles is just a wimp out when what Forgeworld really need to be kicking out is the beautiful and muchly coveted Land Raider Ares... My most favouritest metal bawks ever. (With the possible exception of a double tracked Leman Russ Vanquisher conversion from late 3rd/early 4th ed.)