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 pretre wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
we likely would have attacked the wizard and died.

Another important lesson to learn in D&D (besides the fact that Rape is not okay) is that you can't just attack anything and live. I would have let them do it, if they were that dumb, let them die horribly or be knocked out and geas'd into doing what the wizard wanted and taught them a lesson that there are bigger fish in the sea.

TPK. Roll new characters, no lesson learned, or possibly side quest with still no lesson learned and a delayed campaign. Neither of those solutions are necessarily better in my opinion than the DM creating an outrageous and memorable response to a stupid player comment/action that was dropped shortly after and allowed the campaign to proceed.






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 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
your indignation

Did I give the impression of indignation? Sorry, I meant something closer to

It was hard to gauge your reaction with you so high on your horse.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It was hard to gauge your reaction with you so high on your horse.

I should probably get down and tell a few rape jokes to mingle with the people.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It was hard to gauge your reaction with you so high on your horse.

I should probably get down and tell a few rape jokes to mingle with the people.

Is that what I am doing? Shoot. I didn't even realize it.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I didn't even realize it.

Clearly ...

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
At the time I didn't appreciate the situation for what it was, but looking back on it I think the DM handled the situation well.

Would you use this strategy as a DM?

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I didn't even realize it.

Clearly ...

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
At the time I didn't appreciate the situation for what it was, but looking back on it I think the DM handled the situation well.

Yes, when I was 15 I didn't realize the intention of the DM other than shutting my friend up. Upon reflection as an adult, I saw what he was doing. He turned the focus of rape back onto the player trivializing rape, and shamed him and made him uncomfortable. The DM also turned a situation that could take the campaign off track and deftly avoided a situation spiraling out of control (resulting in a dead party, dead npc, or some other campaign disrupting outcome).

Where did I make a joke of rape? Where did I approve of rape? I acknowledged that the DM encouraging rape against the rapist isn't the best, but it got through the idea that rape is bad to a bunch of 15 year old boys.

I think you are reading more into my posts than is there.

squidhills wrote:
The difference being that, currently, the only place gender issues are a problem is at specific tables full of immature gakheads. D&D itself has no inherant gender issues anymore. Yes, back in the day of Clive Caldwell's illustrations of chainmail bikini-clad fighter gals, you could rightly argue there were issues involving portrayals of women in D&D. Now? Not so much (or at all, really).

And you're free to make that argument. What I object to is the argument (which also appeared in the video game debate) that "SJWs" have no right to criticize D&D/video games/etc and are trying to destroy and/or censor them. For some reason there's a "STOP TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO MAKE THEIR GAMES" reaction when it's about sexism/racism/etc, but players making demands about other things is perfectly acceptable.

Again, the table full of creepers ERPing out their rape fanatasies with a chortling co-conspirator GM is not the fault or responsibility of D&D. It's the fault and responsibility of those creepers not being drowned in a bathtub by their parents.

And I don't think anyone is making the argument that the rulebook says "rape all of the NPCs, it will be awesome". The issue is how this kind of stuff is treated by the community. And yes, a lot of people (especially older players) consider them TFGs, but in my experience there's still quite a bit of reluctance to shun people from the community even when they are TFGs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Here in this thread, Peregrine attempted to strawman me.

I did no such thing. You appeared to be making the same "SJWs have no right to make demands" argument that appeared in the video game debate. If that wasn't your intent then I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying, but that was not a deliberate strawman.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I think you are reading more into my posts than is there.

That could be the case, let me find out. Would you recommend this strategy to other DMs? Would you use it yourself?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
not a deliberate strawman

No problem P.

I smack my players with the PHB or DMG if it amuses me to do so; I'm fairly liberal on what a DM can do to curtail player behavior.

 Ahtman wrote:
I'm fairly liberal

You and your healing surges ...

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I think you are reading more into my posts than is there.

That could be the case, let me find out. Would you recommend this strategy to other DMs? Would you use it yourself?

So what is the point of me answering this obvious set up? If I answer, "Yes, I would handle it exactly the same way" you will accuse me of encouraging rape in my games, or meeting rape with rape, and declare me immoral. If I answer, "No, I would do X differently" you'll sagely nod your head and say, "See, the DM's solution was flawed".

You can Monday quarter back this all you want, but in the heat of the moment the DM's reaction to the threat of rape killed the discussion of rape, kept the game on course, and it removed rape as a joke or player option for the rest of the campaign. I'd consider that a success.

But, to answer your question: If I was running a game for a group of young players and didn't want to pontificate on the subject of rape during a game session, I would likely come up with a similar solution that shames the offending player and allows me to get my game back on track.

 Peregrine wrote:


And you're free to make that argument. What I object to is the argument (which also appeared in the video game debate) that "SJWs" have no right to criticize D&D/video games/etc and are trying to destroy and/or censor them. For some reason there's a "STOP TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO MAKE THEIR GAMES" reaction when it's about sexism/racism/etc, but players making demands about other things is perfectly acceptable.

And again, there is a difference between the two. In the video game case, there is a group of people who make a product (video game) which can/does have issues with negative portrayals of women. If a feminist wants to complain about that, she or he has a right to do so. If a game is sexist it is because the people who made the game made it that way. In the case of D&D, there is no inherant sexism anymore. Is there sexism at a particular table? Yeah. But feminists comlaining about "D&D" as though it were the cause of the sexism at those tables is useless grandstanding, because D&D didn't put the sexism at those tables. It is the fault of the players; they are sexist, so they put the sexism at that table. Since D&D is a social activity (far moreso than MMORPGs) if there is rampant sexism at your gaming table, the solution is: don't play with those gakheads anymore. D&D didn't make them gakheads. Complaining about D&D won't make them less gakheady, nor will it result in the ostracization of those gakheads. Odds are, they are already shunned by people who aren't gakheads and can only find other gakheads to play with. Complaining about D&D just paints *all* gamers with a brush they don't deserve to be painted with.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So what is the point of me answering this obvious set up? If I answer, "Yes, I would handle it exactly the same way" you will accuse me of encouraging rape in my games, or meeting rape with rape, and declare me immoral. If I answer, "No, I would do X differently" you'll sagely nod your head and say, "See, the DM's solution was flawed".

It's what they call a rhetorical question. Basically, it amounts to phrasing an argument as a question. As you have demonstrated, my argument is (1) threatening a PC with rape to discourage the PC making threats of rape is at least very seriously flawed and (2) you yourself know that. At the same time, it's not a "gotcha" argument. As you have alread noted, you pointed out that this was inappropriate. BUT at the same time, you are really defending it as effective and you did answer the rhetorical question kinda sorta in the affirmative without explicitly admitting that you would make an in-game rape threat to shame a player, which is what I really was asking. But again, that was the argument: you already know it is not okay to make in-game rape threats and that's why you or me or any decent person would be hesitant to say: "yeah of course I would threaten to have his PC raped."

The point is not to Monday Morning QB a game from 17 years ago. It is to question whether making in-game rape threats is good advice for DMs today.

Still waiting on where I made a rape joke. Could you provide that quote for me, Manchu?

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So what is the point of me answering this obvious set up? If I answer, "Yes, I would handle it exactly the same way" you will accuse me of encouraging rape in my games, or meeting rape with rape, and declare me immoral. If I answer, "No, I would do X differently" you'll sagely nod your head and say, "See, the DM's solution was flawed".

It's what they call a rhetorical question. Basically, it amounts to phrasing an argument as a question. As you have demonstrated, my argument is (1) threatening a PC with rape to discourage the PC making threats of rape is at least very seriously flawed and (2) you yourself know that. At the same time, it's not a "gotcha" argument. As you have alread noted, you pointed out that this was inappropriate. BUT at the same time, you are really defending it as effective and you did answer the rhetorical question kinda sorta in the affirmative without explicitly admitting that you would make an in-game rape threat to shame a player, which is what I really was asking. But again, that was the argument: you already know it is not okay to make in-game rape threats and that's why you or me or any decent person would be hesitant to say: "yeah of course I would threaten to have his PC raped."

The point is not to Monday Morning QB a game from 17 years ago. It is to question whether making in-game rape threats is good advise for DMs today.

I am defending the actions of the GM, in the moment, with that particular group of kids, as being appropriate. I am not advocating using that same scenario in every situation that involves player initiated rape.

And again, if the DM had stopped the game to explain to us the seriousness and consequences of rape I am almost certain that the lesson would have been lost on us. He knew this because he knew us, and had gamed with us for a while at that point, so he opted to give us a lesson that would resonate. Was it the most appropriate lesson he could have given us? No. And yes, I have admitted that, but that was never my point. My point was that rape as a topic rarely came up in games that I played, and when it did, a DM used a clever tactic to get some 15 year old boys to stop trivializing rape. That you are troubled by that lesson is, frankly, rather ridiculous to me given what the alternative could have been (glorification of rape by allowing the player to follow through with his threat, derailing a campaign with pointless combat over a ridiculous action, ect.). The end result was that the topic was dropped and not picked up again by that group of players.

Alternatively if the parents of certain members of that group had heard that a 35 year old was lecturing their kids about rape, or that rape was even being discussed in our games, players would have been pulled from the group and the DM may have faced some repercussions. Instead, the DM nipped the rape issue in the bud in under 5 minutes and the game moved on. Which is totally appropriate in my opinion.

so now pretend characters (who might be roleplaying as the evilist evidoers) who may or may not be pretend raping people, which may or not even be man on woman rape, is misogynist?


At what point do we call a spade a spade and recognize when we are tilting at windmills?

People play RPGs to be in a fantasy land, its odd to get so worked up over fantasy rape, and not fantasy murder/slavery/theivery/ect."

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am defending the actions of the GM, in the moment, with that particular group of kids, as being appropriate.

Oh?

 Manchu wrote:
Would you recommend this strategy to other DMs? Would you use it yourself?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
to answer your question: If I was running a game for a group of young players and didn't want to pontificate on the subject of rape during a game session, I would likely come up with a similar solution that shames the offending player and allows me to get my game back on track.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Still waiting on where I made a rape joke. Could you provide that quote for me, Manchu?

Here's what I was referring to (as I already pointed out by posting the quote):

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
[...] the DM, without missing a beat, nodded and said, "Okay, the wizard sees you undress, mutters an incantation and points at your manhood which immediately retracts into your body. Everyone present sees your penis become a vagina."

Now, the table full of teenage boys erupted into laughter. And the player in question got really upset, especially when the DM reminded the rest of the party that we were all males, who had been adventuring "for months" away from "town" and that our fellow adventurer was looking more attractive to us the longer he stood around showing us his vagina.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
At the time I didn't appreciate the situation for what it was, but looking back on it I think the DM handled the situation well.

As pretre pointed out, the rape joke was inverted but rape was still the joke. Different target, same issue. You can be forgiven for laughing at the joke -- it was seventeen years ago, you were just a kid, the world was a different place, maybe it was just nervous laughter at the suddenly creepy situation. What puzzles me is that you would post it on a message board seventeen years later and defend it as a reasonable and effective method of dealing with rape in D&D, that you yourself would do it too, and that you recommend it to other DMs.

And just to be crystal clear -- I don't know what the DM should have done during that game seventeen years ago. I just don't think the way he handled it should be held up as a model for DMs. Humiliating a teenage boy by replacing his character's penis with a vagina and then threatening the character with rape by his adventuring companions is terrible on a lot of levels. I am not surprised your group quickly moved on and did not look back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
its odd to get so worked up over fantasy rape, and not fantasy murder/slavery/theivery/ect.

I admit, it is hard to explain in cold, logical terms but I would never object to a player saying "I stab the orc with my sword" but I would walk out if a player said "I threaten the orc with violence to force it to have sex with me."

I don't think there was anything wrong with what the DM did. It produced the right result in the moment and appears to have long lasting benefits to at least one of the people involved in the scenario.

Parents often tell children "how would you feel if someone did that to you" in an attempt to get the child to think about what they are doing. The DM did exactly that in a more artful way. He was not condoning rape but condemning it and doing so without resorting to preachiness that teens tend to quickly tune out.

The DMs response may not be the right one for every group, but it sure sounds like the right one for that group.

'How would you feel if someone did that to you' is an example of the kind of lecture you say would not work.

What happened here was more like 'how do you feel now that it is happening to you?"

That's why I said he did it in a more artful way. The argument does help with some children in some situations, but with age it can be and may need to be more sophisticated or artfully done. And I have no problem with people getting a bit of a taste of their own medicine especially in a situation like this where there is no real harm done.

I personally find your response to the situation to be far too sensitive. Individual tastes and responses vary. I'm fine with that and just want to throw in support for the DM in the story because it have absolutely no concern or reservations about how the situation was handleded.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
I have no problem with people getting a bit of a taste of their own medicine

This is where we differ. I don't think anyone deserves a rape threat.

 daedalus wrote:
So spending hours on imaginary murder and wholesale genocide is perfectly fine. Spending a sentence suggesting imaginary rape is wrong, apparently.

Yep, it is wrong. Rape is more wrong than murder, far more wrong. Far more damaging to the total fabric of society as well.

Manchu:

So you are just doing quick, literal readings of my posts and not giving the words any thought to context or nuance? I now understand the last two pages of this thread.

By saying I would do something similar that shames a player doesn't mean I would invert the rape, it means I would do what the DM did: shame the player and move the game on from the topic of rape. There is no point in concocting hypothetical responses that I would use in such a game scenario because my response would be grounded in the context of the group I was running the game for. But, there would be consequences, those consequences would be detrimental in someway to the potential rapist character, and those consequences would move the plot away from the topic of rape. I would advise that course of action in most situations because at the game table people do not want to necessarily have a stupid comment or action devolve a game into a debate about real world issues. Most players would want to deal with the situation quickly and firmly and move on with the game. But, perhaps some groups would want to stop and have a discussion and if that is what the group decides that is fine. But for my group at the time that was not the best course of action.

So are you suggesting that the group dynamic should be ignored by a DM when deciding how to handle volatile situations such as a declaration of rape? Should some boilerplate response be given to instruct the players and turn the moment into a teachable lesson? Even if that lesson would be lost on the players? I doubt you do, but your insistence that this DM's actions were wrong while ignoring the very real variables he was faced with vis a vis the 8 teenagers staring back at him from across the table is rather unfair.

 Manchu wrote:
[And just to be crystal clear -- I don't know what the DM should have done during that game seventeen years ago. I just don't think the way he handled it should be held up as a model for DMs. Humiliating a teenage boy by replacing his character's penis with a vagina and then threatening the character with rape by his adventuring companions is terrible on a lot of levels. I am not surprised your group quickly moved on and did not look back.

Ah, yes, so you don't have an answer either. But you are quick to criticize someone who was in a difficult situation and handled it with aplomb. The DM's role was not one of ethics instructor, he was not there to guide our moral development, he was giving a group of teenagers something fun to do on a Saturday night. He was not a guardian to any of us, and I am sure didn't want to have to explain to our parents why he had a rape discussion with us, or why rape was even coming up in his games. Because rape wasn't a part of his game. It never was until an idiot player made an idiot statement, but! the rape never occurred, and the topic died almost as quickly as it started.

In hindsight, as I have said, the lesson could have been presented differently, but I don't think it was that DM's place to give that group of players a lesson on rape other than making it clear to us that rape is not something that will occur in that game. And he did just that. So, again, SUCCESS.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
So spending hours on imaginary murder and wholesale genocide is perfectly fine. Spending a sentence suggesting imaginary rape is wrong, apparently.

Yep, it is wrong. Rape is more wrong than murder, far more wrong. Far more damaging to the total fabric of society as well.

Because... it leaves survivors?

I'd personally rather be raped than be murdered. I mean, I'd rather not either, but, you know, if I had to choose.

 Manchu wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
its odd to get so worked up over fantasy rape, and not fantasy murder/slavery/theivery/ect.

I admit, it is hard to explain in cold, logical terms but I would never object to a player saying "I stab the orc with my sword" but I would walk out if a player said "I threaten the orc with violence to force it to have sex with me."

Why are you prejudiced against dark elves and other evil aligned characters?


everyone wants to act out different roles, thats why some people get traits like "cannibal, child killer, poo shoveler," and some never know they existed

Fantasy world actions demand fantasy reactions, people are responsible for their own content (and to a degree, the other PCs around them) so they have only themselves to blame if they use an open rule set for things they do not approve of.

The fact that it is even possible murder and use black magic would "cross the line" to many people, you just happen to draw the line a bit further at fantasy ork rape.

Some might walk out when I role play some swarthy dwarven pirate *I walk into the brothel in the town and pay two silvers for a wench and some ale*

Some might walk out when I force them to make charisma checks to get me to stop drinking and go kill some dragons or something.



im really fun to rpg with by the way

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
By saying I would do something similar that shames a player doesn't mean I would invert the rape, it means I would do what the DM did: shame the player and move the game on from the topic of rape.

I asked you a very clear question and you gave me a weasely answer. I even pointed this out to you:

 Manchu wrote:
you did answer the rhetorical question kinda sorta in the affirmative without explicitly admitting that you would make an in-game rape threat to shame a player, which is what I really was asking. But again, that was the argument: you already know it is not okay to make in-game rape threats and that's why you or me or any decent person would be hesitant to say: "yeah of course I would threaten to have his PC raped."

So I guess the question has to be completely sincere rather than rhetorical:

Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM? Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
your insistence that this DM's actions were wrong while ignoring the very real variables he was faced with vis a vis the 8 teenagers staring back at him from across the table is rather unfair

Honestly dude you just quoted me on this yourself, in the very same post even:

 Manchu wrote:
[And just to be crystal clear -- I don't know what the DM should have done during that game seventeen years ago. I just don't think the way he handled it should be held up as a model for DMs.

 easysauce wrote:
Why are you prejudiced against dark elves and other evil aligned characters?

LOLWUT

As I mentioned earlier, rape is already in the generic D&D setting. There are evil beings out there who hypothetically rape other beings. Even so, I am not going to spend my free time hanging out with people who use RPGs as an excuse to live out rape fantasies. In my experience, that is pretty rare. I also don't want to spend my free time with folks who make rape jokes. In my experience, that is a lot less rare.

I guess in some way it is hypocritical of me not to mind when a PC kills an orc BUT to feel totally grossed out when a PC violently coerces an orc into sexual acts. I don't really mind being a hypocrite about this, however.

 daedalus wrote:
I'd personally rather be raped than be murdered. I mean, I'd rather not either, but, you know, if I had to choose.

Personally, I could not tell what would be worse before having them happens to me. I just cannot imagine how it feels. Certainly very wrong, but more than that? I have no idea.

 daedalus wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
So spending hours on imaginary murder and wholesale genocide is perfectly fine. Spending a sentence suggesting imaginary rape is wrong, apparently.

Yep, it is wrong. Rape is more wrong than murder, far more wrong. Far more damaging to the total fabric of society as well.

Because... it leaves survivors?

I'd personally rather be raped than be murdered. I mean, I'd rather not either, but, you know, if I had to choose.

Isnt that what many real rape victims who know they are about to be raped say. Please don't kill me......

Being a father, this kind of a response from someone else's uncle to my son would make me pretty nervous.

I'd also be concerned about my son's character trying to rape another character.

I mean, if you just went on stories like this you could see why some people were so afraid of D&D.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
By saying I would do something similar that shames a player doesn't mean I would invert the rape, it means I would do what the DM did: shame the player and move the game on from the topic of rape.

I asked you a very clear question and you gave me a weasely answer. I even pointed this out to you.

No, you asked me a rhetorical question aimed at tripping up my argument. Again, without knowing the specific group of players I was dealing with I can't answer that question appropriately. Call that weasly if you want, but I am at least being honest and not taking some holier-than-thou stance as others are in this discussion.

 Manchu wrote:
Would you use in-game rape threats as a DM? Would you recommend that DMs use in-game rape threats?

1) If it was appropriate. 2) See 1.

Just like you have a hard time justifying the acceptance of murder over sexual assault in your games, I have a hard time discounting using a brash response for certain player's actions if that response is most appropriate for that particular player. If I am running a game for a person I am responsible for, whose development I am having a hand in drafting, then I would react in a manner differently than if it was with a group of friends or acquaintances who are beign douches.

In that room back in the late 90's the response seems appropriate to me given the factors at play within that group.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
your insistence that this DM's actions were wrong while ignoring the very real variables he was faced with vis a vis the 8 teenagers staring back at him from across the table is rather unfair

Honestly dude you just quoted me on this yourself, in the very same post even:

 Manchu wrote:
[And just to be crystal clear -- I don't know what the DM should have done during that game seventeen years ago. I just don't think the way he handled it should be held up as a model for DMs.

At no point in this discussion have I advocated that his response was appropriate for other DMs. That has been your argument. I merely think that he handled the situation that night correctly for that group.

 Manchu wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
I have no problem with people getting a bit of a taste of their own medicine

This is where we differ. I don't think anyone deserves a rape threat.

He didn't threaten him with an actual rape. It was all pretend. So when a kid wants to derail the game with raping for lulz and the GM demonstrates that it might not be so funny, I say way to go GM. I don't think the GM was glorifying or encouraging rape; he was doing the opposite. And it worked. And no one real or imagined was harmed. And some stupid kids had an ah ha moment that rape isn't really cool or funny. I call it an all around success.