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Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 Manchu wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
The game with fictional orc rape should be just as acceptable as fictional orc murder.
How about a game with fictional pedophilia? Is that just as acceptable?

Yes. Such games exist in Japan and there's a viable argument for their existence reducing the real victims of paedophiles by giving them a harmless outlet.

By the way, are you okay with fictional murder?

Aren't we all?
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I mean, I want to say "game about killing orcs," because it's something I'm used to, but what if the orcs are doing their own thing in the village, having pleasant conversations about the weather?
I think we can skip this sort of prevarication. Assume the orcs are the usual bad kind of orcs.

   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Manchu wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
The game with fictional orc rape should be just as acceptable as fictional orc murder.
How about a game with fictional pedophilia? Is that just as acceptable?


There's an entire video game in Japan that solely is about raping women. Rapelay iirc.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Yonan wrote:
By the way, are you okay with fictional murder?
Aren't we all?
I assume that means yes.

I don't really have a problem with killing orcs in D&D. I think that is different from raping orcs in D&D or committing sex acts with children in D&D. But you seem to think all of those things are equivalent.

So, again assuming "aren't we all? means you are okay with killing orcs in D&D, and given that you think fictional killing is the same as fictional rape and fictional pedophilia, does this also mean you are okay with raping orcs in D&D and committing sex acts with children in D&D?
 Cheesecat wrote:
Well morally as in my own morals, a game about killing orcs is worse than a game about raping orcs.
So you would rather play a game where your character rapes orcs than kills orcs?

What kind of games do you actually play, by the way?
 Sigvatr wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
nomotog wrote:
I can't think of any rape justifications that are accepted.
"Murder is worse."

It's not a justification for any particular instance of rape but it seems to be the go-to excuse for depicting rape in games.
You got it the wrong way, whether intentional or not - that'll be up for debate.
Not sure what you mean but I am sure my statement accurately reflects arguments made ITT.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/10 19:06:24


   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

Those NPC children are played by an adult game master. If that game master - and everyone present - is happy with that, good on them. It's not something I'd enjoy but I see it as morally similar in theory. In practice you'd get lynched.

An interesting game you play!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 19:05:50


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Yonan wrote:
It's not something I'd enjoy but I see it as morally similar in theory.!
Just to clarify:

- a group of adults roleplaying a battle with some orcs

is in your opinion morally equivalent to

- a group of adults roleplaying molesting children?
 Yonan wrote:
An interesting game you play!
It doesn't involve raping orcs or children, that's for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 19:08:42


   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Well morally as in my own morals, a game about killing orcs is worse than a game about raping orcs.
So you would rather play a game where your character rapes orcs than kills orcs?

Well, that's your morals then. I wouldn't care for either and to me, it's the same. The important thing is that you're playing with a group of people and if someone suddenly gets the idea to start sexually harassing children...uhm...

 Manchu wrote:

Not sure what you mean but I am sure my statement accurately reflects arguments made ITT.


Not sure what you mean with that statement either

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/10 19:14:00


   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 Manchu wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
An interesting game you play!
It doesn't involve raping orcs or children, that's for sure.

Neither does mine, but I grew up with the same warped social norms as you after all.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Sigvatr wrote:
I wouldn't care for either
You don't care for games where orcs (or presumably any sentient being) are killed? Seems at odds with your posting on the rest of this forum.
 Yonan wrote:
I grew up with the same warped social norms as you after all.
Let's find out:
 Manchu wrote:
Just to clarify:

- a group of adults roleplaying a battle with some orcs

is in your opinion morally equivalent to

- a group of adults roleplaying molesting children?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/10 19:18:37


   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Manchu wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
I wouldn't care for either
You don't care for games where orcs (or presumably any sentient being) are killed? Seems at odds with your posting on the rest of this forum.


I don't get that post. Do I have to imagine you running out crying when we'd play D&D and the group is encountered by a group of ork bandits? O_o

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't get that post. Do I have to imagine you running out crying when we'd play D&D and the group is encountered by a group of ork bandits?
Perhaps there is a language barrier issue here?

I don't have a problem fighting and killing orcs in D&D.

I do have a problem with raping them.

Where do you stand?

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Manchu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I mean, I want to say "game about killing orcs," because it's something I'm used to, but what if the orcs are doing their own thing in the village, having pleasant conversations about the weather?
I think we can skip this sort of prevarication. Assume the orcs are the usual bad kind of orcs.


So then I may assume that the orcs are trying to rape me in the rape scenario? In that case, I would go with the killing. I don't want no orc to have a chance at raping me. That would be pretty silly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 19:40:46


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Ah, gotcha. Thought we were talking about the murder as well.

I'd, personally, have an issue with raping them because it would be stupid. It leads to nothing, it has no point in the overarching story, it does not provide any humor (hopefully...) and it would be weird if someone on our table would suddenly say "Yo, I want to rape that orc lady!".

Killing Orcs simply makes sense. They are the generic evil in D&D and they provide loot and experience.

I don't think we're on the same point here, though. Both rape and murder are bad. SJW bringing the former up as the "ultimate evil", however, is...strange, because suddenly, murdering tons of people is okay. And worse: murder of the other gender. Totally okay all of a sudden. Why not enforce 50% of all victims to be female?

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

 Manchu wrote:
 Cheesecat wrote:
Well morally as in my own morals, a game about killing orcs is worse than a game about raping orcs.
So you would rather play a game where your character rapes orcs than kills orcs?

What kind of games do you actually play, by the way?


Well, I just realized I'm at odds with myself because I've played tons of characters who kill and I'm not that worried about it, but I would probably not be comfortable playing a character who rapes. So I guess in fictional universes I more OK with killing than rape, but in real life as far as I'm

aware I think killing is usually worse than rape.
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Manchu wrote:
Sort of. As I just mentioned, a lot of people are excusing rape in roleplaying games by arguing that real life murder is worse than real life rape. That is, their argument seems to be if it is okay to play a game about killing orcs then it is okay to play a game about raping orcs. And just following this line of argument to its logical conclusion, a game about raping orcs is actually better than a game about killing them.

But damned if it isn't hard to find one of them who will actually say it explicitly.


In that case, I still stick with neither, though I'm not sure I was the intended audience of the question to begin with. The entire nature of murdering orcs and not being glowing red EVIL is based upon the supposition that the orcs are inherently bad at some inherent and measurable level, and that you're, by some virtue of personal might, effectively endowed to be their judge, jury, and executioner. As killing things too evil to let live has real world basis in some (modern, even) societies, it's certainly easier to rationalize than rape. Absent of any true wrongdoing though, genocide is pretty freaking evil. To better anthropomorphize the orcs, imagine them something for which there have been dubious evil acts ascribed to them that they have committed against somebody, somewhere, maybe. Or so someone somewhere claimed once. That was a big point in a war that happened some 70 years ago.

Of course, rape is an unspeakably vile thing too. To hurt someone personally that much is something I liken to prolonged and severe torture, which is something I actually do see in our games. One of the guys will occasionally go off on "torture fetish" binges with captives. It gets uncomfortable and then we need to get on his case about it. It's a problem for the group.

I have little interest in playing a game that involves me murdering things, nor do I have any interest in playing a game that involves me raping things. I do have an interest in playing in a game where I supply justice in an appropriate fashion for crimes committed beyond simply the fact that something has tusks and is pissed at me for wandering into its home. As such, I'm okay with terrible things (murder, rape, etc) happening in a game within the form of a narrative so long as I'm the one destroying the source of it, and not the one involved in committing or abiding the committing of it.

TL;DR: I'm Lawful Neutral. Both answers suck.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So then I may assume that the orcs are trying to rape me in the rape scenario?
Uh?

Getting back to the original question -- which is better:

- RPG about killing/murdering orcs

OR

- RPG about raping orcs?

Really none of the qualifies you have brought up so far impact the meaning of the original question.
 Sigvatr wrote:
I don't think we're on the same point here, though.
I agree. I am not trying to make a point about men being evil or something. The issue is, people are saying that rape and killing (or murder if you prefer) are morally equivalent in RPGs or that killing is worse. And yet no one is really willing to say they would rather play a game about raping orcs than a game about killing orcs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/10 20:04:12


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Two reasons why rape is arguably worse than murder in games:

1) Most "murder" in games isn't murder at all. Killing an enemy on the battlefield isn't murder, defending yourself from bandits isn't murder, etc. And even when it would be murder (for example, if you're playing as the bandits) it's usually just a means to an end, not something done just for the sake of murdering people. Rape, on the other hand, has no such justification. It doesn't accomplish anything besides making a character suffer and proving how Evil you are.

2) Everyone agrees that murder in real life is wrong. You don't have lawyers in court making arguments about how the victim was asking for it by wearing those clothes, or how they agree to violence in a martial arts context therefore they probably consented to being murdered. There isn't much reason to be concerned about what messages about murder we're presenting because nobody is going to change their opinion. But we do have those kinds of things with rape, people are constantly making up excuses for how it wasn't really all that bad or how it's all the victim's fault. So even if the crime itself isn't quite as bad we have a lot more reasons to care about how we present it.


And you know what else is amusing? On the very first page we had denials and claims that rape isn't really a thing in D&D and the FATAL crowd are an irrelevant minority that shouldn't be used to make the majority look bad, but here we are in an argument where people are proudly explaining how they think that there are good reasons to have rape in their D&D games.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 daedalus wrote:
I have little interest in playing a game that involves me murdering things
I think you're being a bit precious with the word "murder" here. I mean, what kind of games do you play?

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 daedalus wrote:
Spoiler:
 Manchu wrote:
Sort of. As I just mentioned, a lot of people are excusing rape in roleplaying games by arguing that real life murder is worse than real life rape. That is, their argument seems to be if it is okay to play a game about killing orcs then it is okay to play a game about raping orcs. And just following this line of argument to its logical conclusion, a game about raping orcs is actually better than a game about killing them.

But damned if it isn't hard to find one of them who will actually say it explicitly.


In that case, I still stick with neither, though I'm not sure I was the intended audience of the question to begin with. The entire nature of murdering orcs and not being glowing red EVIL is based upon the supposition that the orcs are inherently bad at some inherent and measurable level, and that you're, by some virtue of personal might, effectively endowed to be their judge, jury, and executioner. As killing things too evil to let live has real world basis in some (modern, even) societies, it's certainly easier to rationalize than rape. Absent of any true wrongdoing though, genocide is pretty freaking evil. To better anthropomorphize the orcs, imagine them something for which there have been dubious evil acts ascribed to them that they have committed against somebody, somewhere, maybe. Or so someone somewhere claimed once. That was a big point in a war that happened some 70 years ago.

Of course, rape is an unspeakably vile thing too. To hurt someone personally that much is something I liken to prolonged and severe torture, which is something I actually do see in our games. One of the guys will occasionally go off on "torture fetish" binges with captives. It gets uncomfortable and then we need to get on his case about it. It's a problem for the group.

I have little interest in playing a game that involves me murdering things, nor do I have any interest in playing a game that involves me raping things. I do have an interest in playing in a game where I supply justice in an appropriate fashion for crimes committed beyond simply the fact that something has tusks and is pissed at me for wandering into its home. As such, I'm okay with terrible things (murder, rape, etc) happening in a game within the form of a narrative so long as I'm the one destroying the source of it, and not the one involved in committing or abiding the committing of it.


TL;DR: I'm Lawful Neutral. Both answers suck.

Exalted.
/thread

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Peregrine wrote:
where people are proudly explaining how they think that there are good reasons to have rape in their D&D games.
OTOH I am having a hell of a time getting anyone to really come right out and say it. So there's the reality, I think: people already know rape doesn't belong in games. There is a different issue at play here because I highly doubt any of these guys actually think playing a game where you kill orcs is the same as playing a game where you rape orcs or rape kids.
Not really. Daedalus's post is just his original sidestepping of the actual issue.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/10 20:09:08


   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Manchu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So then I may assume that the orcs are trying to rape me in the rape scenario?
Uh?

Getting back to the original question -- which is better:

- RPG about killing/murdering orcs

OR

- RPG about raping orcs?

Really none of the qualifies you have brought up so far impact the meaning of the original question.


It does though. Details are important.

Without details, I guess I have to go for killing, provided the orcs are hostile. There has to be a very strange and specific series of circumstances in order to justify a scenario as odd and horrible as orc rape.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 20:15:10


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There has to be a very strange and specific series of circumstances in order to justify a scenario as odd and horrible as orc rape.

There's no justification... unless...

You're roleplaying a sadistic evil character.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

People you consider killing in these games to be okay because killing is considered heroic when done for a good cause. Most people would say people in my grandfather's generation who fought in WWII where heroic, freeing Europe from the Nazis even though that included killing a lot of people.

In the DND you play the hero out to save the world, or the nation, or a town. It is about going to Dungeons and heroically fighting and killing monsters such as Dragons.

Rape on the other hand is not seen as herioc, so therefore is not ok.

Now that said, I have seen pre-made settings for RGPs that contain evil characters raping people or participating in Eugenics, or other acts that people may find immoral. Rape could come up in an RPG, as long as it is done with some of level of taste it would be fine. Are most people who play DND in particular mature enough/willing to have that come up? Probably not.


   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 whembly wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There has to be a very strange and specific series of circumstances in order to justify a scenario as odd and horrible as orc rape.

There's no justification... unless...

You're roleplaying a sadistic evil character.


As I said, a very strange and specific series of conditions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 20:18:43


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There has to be a very strange and specific series of circumstances in order to justify a scenario as odd and horrible as orc rape.
You know, whatever people do in their imaginary games is up to them.

All I am trying to show is, we all know that raping orcs in RPGs is creepy but killing orcs in RPGs is not. So the "murder is worse" angle is irrelevant.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There has to be a very strange and specific series of circumstances in order to justify a scenario as odd and horrible as orc rape.


There shouldn't be ANY set of circumstances where rape is the answer or consequence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 20:19:12


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Blood Hawk wrote:
Rape could come up in an RPG, as long as it is done with some of level of taste it would be fine.
Tasteful game rape?

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Platuan4th wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There has to be a very strange and specific series of circumstances in order to justify a scenario as odd and horrible as orc rape.


There shouldn't be ANY set of circumstances where rape is the answer or consequence.


Ideally, yes. But theoretically there could be. It depends on how sadistic the player would like his character to be.
Or how fethed up the DM wants the situation to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 20:22:24


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Manchu wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
Rape could come up in an RPG, as long as it is done with some of level of taste it would be fine.
Tasteful game rape?


I think he means as a background thing that people know about to set up how BAD the Big Bad really is.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Manchu wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
Rape could come up in an RPG, as long as it is done with some of level of taste it would be fine.
Tasteful game rape?


Is that an oxymoron? I think that's an oxymoron.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
 
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