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So I've been working a little on a bolter schematic, and I've got what I think would be most of the stuff. Main thing I'm trying to get now is the ejection mechanism for the cartridges, I can't really find any good diagrams to help me figure out where exactly that would go in the design itself. I can see the ejection port obviously, but would that little part that slides back along the ejection port have some part that extends down to the barrel and hooks to the lip of the casing? I'll post a pic of the drawing I've been doing in a little bit.

I've also been working on a suit of terminator armor, with my goal being to make it as comfortable to wear as possible (ie not overheating in 10 minutes). I'm thinking that I could have some sort of power source in the backpack area, and there are so many vent openings on the armor itself that could be used to help circulation and whatnot. Ideally I'd like to have additional systems like small motors/an armature to take some of the weight off the wearer, but that's secondary.

Here's the rough diagram I came up with. Note that I'm not exactly a great artist or super knowledgeable about guns so suggestions/critique are encouraged. I also need to draw in the cartridge ejection mechanism so recommendations are needed.


I based the labels and everything off of a gas system diagram I found on HowStuffWorks. Once I've got the full details of the diagram, knowing all the parts I'd need and where they'd go, I can start figuring out how large they'd need to be so I can actually make them, and also how to actually make them :p

This may interest you fellas. I was actually surprised it didn't appear already.

http://www.philipsibbering.com/wh40k/07-00-tec-index.shtml

http://www.philipsibbering.com/wh40k/11-00-bolter.shtml

Phil's work is unauthorized fanfiction completely separate from 40K, and differs from it to an outlandish degree.

Nothing he hasn't adressed already. He makes a point of explaining his atitude towards it, his reasoning and motivations.

http://philipsibbering.com/blog/articles/canon/

http://philipsibbering.com/blog/articles/philverse/

Still looking for help with the cartridge ejection mechanism, and if I'm missing any other critical parts to the mechanism certainly let me know. Feel free to take and modify the "blueprint" I posted above if you want to save time or something.

Also, another 40K weapon that would be rather easy to make due to the fact that we already have them is the heavy flamer. There are a few questions I have regarding specifics, though. They say the flamers use promethium as a fuel, but Promethium is a non-flammable radioactive element so they're obviously talking about some other compound/element and named it after the Greek demigod Promethium due to his association with fire. What modern compound or mixture could be used as an equivalent? Also, what are those holes in the side of the rectangular "barrel" of the flamer for? If they're used to vent some of the heat, how do they do so? If they just went all the way through on both sides that would just result in fuel going everywhere instead of being aimed at a target.

I was doing a bit of work earlier and, with some scaling, math, and guesswork, came up with an approximate bolter clip size. With a bolt+casing size of around 2 1/8", and 35 round (being 11 rows of 3, and one of 2), It comes out with a height of 9 7/8", a width of 2 3/8" and a length of 2 1/4". It's a brick, but it's not too big to use.

Interestingly enough, Elmer's school glue is almost the exact size that bolts would be.

Promethium is what they call gasoline.

Why exactly hasn't the Imperium built specialized Marks of power amour after "Iron" armor?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Why exactly hasn't the Imperium built specialized Marks of power amour?

Most Marines run around fighting all sorts of different things. it would be hard for them to be a TAC list if everyone was specialized

Its also possible its because of the Time stop in the setting.

edit: as there upgraded marks all the time.

 reptilelover1995 wrote:
Still looking for help with the cartridge ejection mechanism, and if I'm missing any other critical parts to the mechanism certainly let me know. Feel free to take and modify the "blueprint" I posted above if you want to save time or something.

Did you include the rifling? As per the 3rd edition diagram for storm bolters, bolters have rifling. Why a supposedly rocket-propelled round would need rifling is another mystery (especially given the short barrel), but its there. My guess would be bolters aren't strictly rocket propelled or gyrojet, but may be related to the travelling charge concept, although it may use rocket assist to sustain range and velocity (rifling would provide the initial velocity and spin and likely would explain any recoil they supposedly have.)

It's really hard to guess at the loading mechanism because it looks really weird. I'd guess maybe that the lil spiky bits are part of the 'piezo-electric ignition chamber' (which is ironic because there is an ignition like that but its used for completely mundane rathr than ballistic purposes. Trying to salvage I might guess electrical ignition, with the electrical bit being provided by the mechanical action of the weapon - sort of a 'regenerative' effect I guess.) The spiky bit is pushed forward into the back of the round to ignite it, and on ignition it pulls back (I'm guessing the ejected bit - the 'case' we see in artwork or sometimes in fluff, might be akin to the metallic bit on the end of a combustble cartridge Not entirely caseless in that case but nearly so and its possible like autoguns you get 'cased' and 'caseless' bolter varieties. The end cap would likely be used to seal the chamber for the time needed to push the round. ) Anyhow, when the spiky bit pulls back it carries the end bit of the cartridge with, dropping it onto those little half cylinders labeled the 'multi direcitonal ejection port' - maybe they're what push the catridge out? I'd guess also 'multi-directional' refers to the fact that its a two barreld gun it will have ejection ports on both sides.

Another interesting point is the blast compensator on top, which likely is for venting the propellant gases of the bolt charge. Having them vent upwards is interesting, as that might help to counteract any tendency for the ewapon to recoil upwards (it will 'push' the weapon down.) which might help, although I'm not entirely sure about positioning in that regard (having it closer ot the barrel like some muzzle brakes do would probably be more useful.)

The above is a horrible bastaridzation of concepts and entirely speculative, but it MIGHT work for the bolter. Might. I'm sure it will provoke disagreement and/or outrage though, so bear that in mind too. The way bolters work is as contested as most things in 40K after all.

Also, another 40K weapon that would be rather easy to make due to the fact that we already have them is the heavy flamer. There are a few questions I have regarding specifics, though. They say the flamers use promethium as a fuel, but Promethium is a non-flammable radioactive element so they're obviously talking about some other compound/element and named it after the Greek demigod Promethium due to his association with fire. What modern compound or mixture could be used as an equivalent? Also, what are those holes in the side of the rectangular "barrel" of the flamer for? If they're used to vent some of the heat, how do they do so? If they just went all the way through on both sides that would just result in fuel going everywhere instead of being aimed at a target.

Promethium can literally mean anything. In most cases its basically a fossil fuel, but it can be liquid, gaseous or even solid (Space coal, space oil, space propane.) And even in some cases its used in starship reactors and can be found in gas giants (thank you, Shield of Baal!) which means it may also be hydrogen. Actually that would be hilarious on so many levels given how utterly energetic hydrogen is (it might also explain why some meltaguns became basically fusion flamethwoers. And some plasma guns for that matter.) Especially as they may be using metastable/metallic hydrogen at least in some forms lol.

Not sure how dense metallic hydrogen is, incidentally, but that is what I've speculated the 'depleted deuterium' core migth be. It supposedly could be used as an explosive, and if dense enough it might even add to penetration (AP cored round, maybe?) But that's entirely speculative and possibly even outright pseudoscience so you should take that conjecture with a large rock of salt.

Why are Dark Angels so fond of Plasma Guns?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Why are Dark Angels so fond of Plasma Guns?

Because they hate CSM a lot, and plasma is the most effective special weapon type against them.

Or because their local forge world favours it?

Thanks for the advice. I may need help drawing up a revised diagram to show more detail for those other parts, and other opinions or ideas are always welcome and encouraged to get more than one perspective.

I don't think that metallic hydrogen would be feasible within something that small, just because you'd have to somehow generate the immense pressures found within a gas giant in order to compress the hydrogen enough to make metallic hydrogen. Plus, I'm pretty sure that the expansion once the target was hit would be so massive it would pose a danger to anyone within a significant radius. I don't know for sure though.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

 reptilelover1995 wrote:
Still looking for help with the cartridge ejection mechanism, and if I'm missing any other critical parts to the mechanism certainly let me know. Feel free to take and modify the "blueprint" I posted above if you want to save time or something.

Did you include the rifling? As per the 3rd edition diagram for storm bolters, bolters have rifling. Why a supposedly rocket-propelled round would need rifling is another mystery (especially given the short barrel), but its there. My guess would be bolters aren't strictly rocket propelled or gyrojet, but may be related to the travelling charge concept, although it may use rocket assist to sustain range and velocity (rifling would provide the initial velocity and spin and likely would explain any recoil they supposedly have.)

It's really hard to guess at the loading mechanism because it looks really weird. I'd guess maybe that the lil spiky bits are part of the 'piezo-electric ignition chamber' (which is ironic because there is an ignition like that but its used for completely mundane rathr than ballistic purposes. Trying to salvage I might guess electrical ignition, with the electrical bit being provided by the mechanical action of the weapon - sort of a 'regenerative' effect I guess.) The spiky bit is pushed forward into the back of the round to ignite it, and on ignition it pulls back (I'm guessing the ejected bit - the 'case' we see in artwork or sometimes in fluff, might be akin to the metallic bit on the end of a combustble cartridge Not entirely caseless in that case but nearly so and its possible like autoguns you get 'cased' and 'caseless' bolter varieties. The end cap would likely be used to seal the chamber for the time needed to push the round. ) Anyhow, when the spiky bit pulls back it carries the end bit of the cartridge with, dropping it onto those little half cylinders labeled the 'multi direcitonal ejection port' - maybe they're what push the catridge out? I'd guess also 'multi-directional' refers to the fact that its a two barreld gun it will have ejection ports on both sides.

Another interesting point is the blast compensator on top, which likely is for venting the propellant gases of the bolt charge. Having them vent upwards is interesting, as that might help to counteract any tendency for the ewapon to recoil upwards (it will 'push' the weapon down.) which might help, although I'm not entirely sure about positioning in that regard (having it closer ot the barrel like some muzzle brakes do would probably be more useful.)

The above is a horrible bastaridzation of concepts and entirely speculative, but it MIGHT work for the bolter. Might. I'm sure it will provoke disagreement and/or outrage though, so bear that in mind too. The way bolters work is as contested as most things in 40K after all.

Also, another 40K weapon that would be rather easy to make due to the fact that we already have them is the heavy flamer. There are a few questions I have regarding specifics, though. They say the flamers use promethium as a fuel, but Promethium is a non-flammable radioactive element so they're obviously talking about some other compound/element and named it after the Greek demigod Promethium due to his association with fire. What modern compound or mixture could be used as an equivalent? Also, what are those holes in the side of the rectangular "barrel" of the flamer for? If they're used to vent some of the heat, how do they do so? If they just went all the way through on both sides that would just result in fuel going everywhere instead of being aimed at a target.

Promethium can literally mean anything. In most cases its basically a fossil fuel, but it can be liquid, gaseous or even solid (Space coal, space oil, space propane.) And even in some cases its used in starship reactors and can be found in gas giants (thank you, Shield of Baal!) which means it may also be hydrogen. Actually that would be hilarious on so many levels given how utterly energetic hydrogen is (it might also explain why some meltaguns became basically fusion flamethwoers. And some plasma guns for that matter.) Especially as they may be using metastable/metallic hydrogen at least in some forms lol.

Not sure how dense metallic hydrogen is, incidentally, but that is what I've speculated the 'depleted deuterium' core migth be. It supposedly could be used as an explosive, and if dense enough it might even add to penetration (AP cored round, maybe?) But that's entirely speculative and possibly even outright pseudoscience so you should take that conjecture with a large rock of salt.

Bolters are indeed rifled, simply because that is necessary for accuracy. Why wait for the rocket to begin rotational stabilization when it can have it right out of the barrel? It just makes sense.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Why are Dark Angels so fond of Plasma Guns?

Because they hate CSM a lot, and plasma is the most effective special weapon type against them.

Or because their local forge world favours it?

You're on the money with the first one. Dark Angels take such a specialized loadout because they will drop everything to go fight CSM or Fallen no matter how important the current mission. I know there's a story in the codex about them abandoning an entire hiveworld in order to chase a rumor about a Fallen.

So does a Jump Pack literally allow a user to hit the ground running?

 Grey Templar wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:

 reptilelover1995 wrote:
Still looking for help with the cartridge ejection mechanism, and if I'm missing any other critical parts to the mechanism certainly let me know. Feel free to take and modify the "blueprint" I posted above if you want to save time or something.

Did you include the rifling? As per the 3rd edition diagram for storm bolters, bolters have rifling. Why a supposedly rocket-propelled round would need rifling is another mystery (especially given the short barrel), but its there. My guess would be bolters aren't strictly rocket propelled or gyrojet, but may be related to the travelling charge concept, although it may use rocket assist to sustain range and velocity (rifling would provide the initial velocity and spin and likely would explain any recoil they supposedly have.)

It's really hard to guess at the loading mechanism because it looks really weird. I'd guess maybe that the lil spiky bits are part of the 'piezo-electric ignition chamber' (which is ironic because there is an ignition like that but its used for completely mundane rathr than ballistic purposes. Trying to salvage I might guess electrical ignition, with the electrical bit being provided by the mechanical action of the weapon - sort of a 'regenerative' effect I guess.) The spiky bit is pushed forward into the back of the round to ignite it, and on ignition it pulls back (I'm guessing the ejected bit - the 'case' we see in artwork or sometimes in fluff, might be akin to the metallic bit on the end of a combustble cartridge Not entirely caseless in that case but nearly so and its possible like autoguns you get 'cased' and 'caseless' bolter varieties. The end cap would likely be used to seal the chamber for the time needed to push the round. ) Anyhow, when the spiky bit pulls back it carries the end bit of the cartridge with, dropping it onto those little half cylinders labeled the 'multi direcitonal ejection port' - maybe they're what push the catridge out? I'd guess also 'multi-directional' refers to the fact that its a two barreld gun it will have ejection ports on both sides.

Another interesting point is the blast compensator on top, which likely is for venting the propellant gases of the bolt charge. Having them vent upwards is interesting, as that might help to counteract any tendency for the ewapon to recoil upwards (it will 'push' the weapon down.) which might help, although I'm not entirely sure about positioning in that regard (having it closer ot the barrel like some muzzle brakes do would probably be more useful.)

The above is a horrible bastaridzation of concepts and entirely speculative, but it MIGHT work for the bolter. Might. I'm sure it will provoke disagreement and/or outrage though, so bear that in mind too. The way bolters work is as contested as most things in 40K after all.

Also, another 40K weapon that would be rather easy to make due to the fact that we already have them is the heavy flamer. There are a few questions I have regarding specifics, though. They say the flamers use promethium as a fuel, but Promethium is a non-flammable radioactive element so they're obviously talking about some other compound/element and named it after the Greek demigod Promethium due to his association with fire. What modern compound or mixture could be used as an equivalent? Also, what are those holes in the side of the rectangular "barrel" of the flamer for? If they're used to vent some of the heat, how do they do so? If they just went all the way through on both sides that would just result in fuel going everywhere instead of being aimed at a target.

Promethium can literally mean anything. In most cases its basically a fossil fuel, but it can be liquid, gaseous or even solid (Space coal, space oil, space propane.) And even in some cases its used in starship reactors and can be found in gas giants (thank you, Shield of Baal!) which means it may also be hydrogen. Actually that would be hilarious on so many levels given how utterly energetic hydrogen is (it might also explain why some meltaguns became basically fusion flamethwoers. And some plasma guns for that matter.) Especially as they may be using metastable/metallic hydrogen at least in some forms lol.

Not sure how dense metallic hydrogen is, incidentally, but that is what I've speculated the 'depleted deuterium' core migth be. It supposedly could be used as an explosive, and if dense enough it might even add to penetration (AP cored round, maybe?) But that's entirely speculative and possibly even outright pseudoscience so you should take that conjecture with a large rock of salt.

Bolters are indeed rifled, simply because that is necessary for accuracy. Why wait for the rocket to begin rotational stabilization when it can have it right out of the barrel? It just makes sense.

Not really. A rocket kicking in on an already spinning object is more likely to destabilize the projectile. Besides, there are plenty of modern weapons without rifling - in fact most main battle tanks are smooth bores.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
So does a Jump Pack literally allow a user to hit the ground running?

I imagine it depends on how high their forward velocity is when they come down. It the user is transiting I can see that coming down running would be useful. When bouncing into combat the DoW2 style stomp landing might be more effective.

Well isn't there a dangerous terrain roll with potential for wounds? I'd say they allow the user to hit the ground running but at the risk of killing it.

So in theory what caliber would the Ork shoota line be?

Slugga - 12" S4 AP6 Pistol (I consider it part of this line)
Shoota - 18" S4 AP6 Assault2
Big Shoota - 36" S5 AP5 Assault3
Supa Shoota - 36" S6 AP4 Assault3

Probably pretty big, like .50 at least.

To be honest it seems the Ork Shoota line is a bit better then the Bolter line. It's just that Orks can't aim worth......

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I was doing a bit of work earlier and, with some scaling, math, and guesswork, came up with an approximate bolter clip size. With a bolt+casing size of around 2 1/8", and 35 round (being 11 rows of 3, and one of 2), It comes out with a height of 9 7/8", a width of 2 3/8" and a length of 2 1/4". It's a brick, but it's not too big to use.

Interestingly enough, Elmer's school glue is almost the exact size that bolts would be.

It's not too big to use the mag and move it with your hands... Indeed. Now draw what you have figured out on a piece of paper in 1:1 scale. Then, draw the weapon around it, with the mag beeing in proportion in size to the rest of the gun. Then make a paper model of it. If that's not enough to show that it would be way too heavy because it's so big... you'd have to go all the way and built it in steel. Add to that a mag full of those big rounds. Then imagine that you need more then 1 mag (no infinite ammo cheat in real life) to go into battle. If you hit a human with it, it's overkill. If you miss you wasted one of the few rounds you can carry.

So in theory what caliber would the Ork shoota line be?

The biggest possible that an ork can handle... a caliber doesnt tell you anything about the power of a gun. Just like the amount of cylinders of a car engine doesnt tell you the acceleration and top speed of it. There is more stuff to it.

Besides, there are plenty of modern weapons without rifling - in fact most main battle tanks are smooth bores

comparing a battletank cannon to a handheld gun is a bit of a stretch isn't it? Last time i checked most pistols and assaultrifles are still rifled... and rocket propelled stuff uses fins to make them spin. That 20mm Frag-12 ammo also uses fins for stabilization to achieve extra range, because shotguns aren't rifled (afaik), as shooting shot shells isn't so great for the barrel if it has rifling

I did draw the clip (that's how I got the size). It truly is a weapon for the genetically engineered. It's going to be like a SAW with less recoil for un-aided humans.

yeah well for space marines it's a good fit i think - no argue about that
for regular humans, smaller bolter rounds seem to be more suitable - that was my argument earlier.

I don't see why, they can still be wielded by regular humans, they just don't wield it with the ease that marines do.

well good luck wielding a 25kg weapon with the kick of a mule and prohibitively heavy ammo.

I've always argued that SM bolters have higher firepower than human bolters.

We have numerous mentions of SM bolters being too big for normal humans to lift unaided, and if you are going to bother with making supersoldiers that are great platforms for heavier weapons then giving them heavier weapons is probably a good idea.

I think the problem is that you assume a bigger gun means a more powerful gun. As they use the same bolts as far as we know they will do the same damage per shot. SM bolters will probably have different mechanical operations (they may fire faster, or have bigger mags), but they will still do the same damage per shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Keep wrote:
well good luck wielding a 25kg weapon with the kick of a mule and prohibitively heavy ammo.

Actually, the design of bolts was to allow humans to use them, that's why they have the rocket propulsion (IIRC). They have a smaller kick than an actual .75 round, as that part is only to eject it from the gun to load a new one.

and if you are going to bother with making supersoldiers that are great platforms for heavier weapons then giving them heavier weapons is probably a good idea.

indeed...

They have a smaller kick than an actual .75 round, as that part is only to eject it from the gun to load a new one.

Well nice and dandy, except bolters where built with close range in mind. And just ejecting a tiny bit doesnt give any advantage that would justify having such an initial charge (which is btw not confirmed in canon that this even exists afaik) If you want any close range penetration you need kinetic energy. Besides that Bolters are said to be loud and terrifying when firing... which would not be the case if it's a tiny charge

Actually, the design of bolts was to allow humans to use them, that's why they have the rocket propulsion

Not all bolts are 0.75 Expecting to see a weapon type in only a single caliber is silly. That's like saying there is only 1 autocannon or heavy machine gun round.

So? AFAIK, SM and SoB all use godwin-deaz bolters.