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Gaurd, no, but space marines. There are 10 million space marines (if that). It would make everything much eaier if they were standardized, so you don;t have to build very special stuff for a mere 100 marines.

 Keep wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:

25mm isn't that much bigger than 20mm really (literally a few mm) as far as caliber goes, but I suppose you could say .75 cal is strictly for astartes grade caliber and other human-sized bolters typically either are designed around astartes ammo (making sacrifices to do so) or use lower caliber ammo (.50 or .60 cal, say.) Probably would have to do that to have any number of shots in the gun and have a normal person able to carry it that way, anyhow.

Well difference is "just" +25% in diameter, but +56% in volume (cylinder with same heigth). So you can roughly have +56% more explosive. That's significant imo.

Connor MacLeod wrote:
I should also note 25mm is also considered the minimum acceptable effective 'grenade' caliber - 20mm are simply too small and light to be effective (and even 25mm needs to be guided to optimize detonation distance, as I recall.)

Yes for airburst/shrapnel 20mm wasn't deemed good enough. However, if the round only explodes on impact (as bolters supposedly do), that's a big difference. There are also explosive rounds for Nato 12.7mm rounds for example. So even with a smaller caliber bolt round, they would be pretty devestating (blowing arms off etc).

Penetrate of im0act implies they blow as soon as they strike the target. They are consistantly noted in fluff to penetrate, then explode, so there is also some sort of delayed fuse.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Gaurd, no, but space marines. There are 10 million space marines (if that). It would make everything much eaier if they were standardized, so you don;t have to build very special stuff for a mere 100 marines.

1 million, divided into 1000 chapters of 1000 guys each. Every chapter is independent and has its own engineers and craftsmen. Variety is inevitable.

 Keep wrote:
Well difference is "just" +25% in diameter, but +56% in volume (cylinder with same heigth). So you can roughly have +56% more explosive. That's significant imo.

Yeah it is, but I wanted that 'significant' detail to reflect the differences between the 'overpowered' Astartes weapons vs the 'normal' human grade ones - not just in recoil or how big an explosion it makes but also the size of the round, especially given rifled ammo will have the afroementioned L/D ratio limits (meaning you just can't make the round arbitrarily long without destabilizing it in all probability. Unless bolt rounds happen to have fold out fins we just happen to never see.)

Yes for airburst/shrapnel 20mm wasn't deemed good enough. However, if the round only explodes on impact (as bolters supposedly do), that's a big difference. There are also explosive rounds for Nato 12.7mm rounds for example. So even with a smaller caliber bolt round, they would be pretty devestating (blowing arms off etc).

Some bolt rounds do have close proximity effect, like the mass reactives in Angel Exterminatus and Nemesis. Besides which there are bolt rounds like that (the metalstorm rounds) which are the same size as bolt rounds and would still suffer from that limit even if bolt rounds themselves normally were fine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
[1 million, divided into 1000 chapters of 1000 guys each. Every chapter is independent and can has its own engineers and craftsmen. Variety is inevitable.

In addition to the above you can add the differences/variations in technology available to forge worlds (given they don't exactly share with each other well and technology/knoweldge is as much power within the Cult Mechanicus as it is to the Imperium as a whole.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Yeah it is, but I wanted that 'significant' detail to reflect the differences between the 'overpowered' Astartes weapons vs the 'normal' human grade ones - not just in recoil or how big an explosion it makes but also the size of the round, especially given rifled ammo will have the afroementioned L/D ratio limits (meaning you just can't make the round arbitrarily long without destabilizing it in all probability. Unless bolt rounds happen to have fold out fins we just happen to never see.)

The rocket propulsion system could be arranged in such a way that it makes the projectile spin without fins... Slightly bigger caliber could just be part of the astartes advantage. They can handle higher recoil, so their initial charge can be higher, therefore the bullet can have alot more kinetic energy and penetration power (velocity goes quadratic into kinetic energy) Since boltrounds dont have a big explosive load (they have rocket propellant in them as well after all) they are only fully effective if they penetrate before the explosion.
And since Astartes Boltrounds have more kinetic energy on the start they don't need as much rocket assistance, so the bolt could have less rocket propellant in favor of more explosive. If their bullets are faster it's also easier to hit with and offers increased range

Deadshot wrote:Penetrate of im0act implies they blow as soon as they strike the target. They are consistantly noted in fluff to penetrate, then explode, so there is also some sort of delayed fuse.

Impact fuze doesnt mean it explodes right away. It just means it's activated/triggered by the physical impact, instead of other methods, say, time-based for example.

Ah, thanks for clarifying.


Is anyone going to take into account the variant bolts? Obviously some are a bit out there, such as Vegeance Rounds "Unstable flux core" and Hellfire rounds with "Mutagenic acid", but could others work?

For example, there are Metalstorm Frag rounds which essentially shatter on impact and spray the target with shrapnel shards.
Dragonfire rounds which released high-pressure gas at extreme temperatures instead of explosive.
Kraken Rounds, which are implied to have less explosive, but explicitly have more propellant and a "diamantine" (diamond+adamantium compound perhaps) tip for increase penetration.
Hellfire rounds I suppose could use something like Hydrochloric acid instead of this superacid stuff but obviously against Geneva in modern terms.

Any of these ideas sound viable or even realistically possible?

They're all feasible.

We already have similar things to Metalstorm rounds.

Helfire rounds would require us to create a new hyper corrosive acid/rapid mutagen, but its well within possibilities.

 Deadshot wrote:
For example, there are Metalstorm Frag rounds which essentially shatter on impact and spray the target with shrapnel shards.
Dragonfire rounds which released high-pressure gas at extreme temperatures instead of explosive.
Kraken Rounds, which are implied to have less explosive, but explicitly have more propellant and a "diamantine" (diamond+adamantium compound perhaps) tip for increase penetration.
Hellfire rounds I suppose could use something like Hydrochloric acid instead of this superacid stuff but obviously against Geneva in modern terms.

Dragonfire sounds kinda like a Thermobaric explosive.
Kraken - well that's just your regular Armor piercing weapon round, with High density and high strength Penetrator
Metalstorm frag could be either just regular frag ammo - that means there are many small cylinders of high density metal, which are placed around the explosive and then produce a nice pattern. Or it could be flechettes instead of cylinders, so more penetration but less coverage.

 Keep wrote:
The rocket propulsion system could be arranged in such a way that it makes the projectile spin without fins... Slightly bigger caliber could just be part of the astartes advantage. They can handle higher recoil, so their initial charge can be higher, therefore the bullet can have alot more kinetic energy and penetration power (velocity goes quadratic into kinetic energy) Since boltrounds dont have a big explosive load (they have rocket propellant in them as well after all) they are only fully effective if they penetrate before the explosion.

And since Astartes Boltrounds have more kinetic energy on the start they don't need as much rocket assistance, so the bolt could have less rocket propellant in favor of more explosive. If their bullets are faster it's also easier to hit with and offers increased range.

The recoil and the 'spin-stabilization'/rifling is why I was thinking bolters operate on a travelling charge concept perhaps with additional rocket assist. This is how Jane's Technology of Tanks described it:

The one exception to this is a two-stage liquid propellant gun with regenerative injection devised by General Electric which exploits the travelling charge concept. In this gun only one half of the charge is burnt in the chamber; the rest burns as it moves with the projectile. The result of this is considerably higher muzzle velocities for a given propellant mass, the increase over comparable solid propellant guns and charges being of the order of 30 per cent at velocities of about 2500 m/s.

That is describing the concept in use with liquid propellant, but it has been used on solid propellants as well. From here:

Originally proposed by Langwailer in the early 1940's, the traveling charge concept (or 'impulse gun') is a solid propellant propulsion technique thought by ballisticians to offer the prospect of muzzle exit velocities in the 2 to 3 km/s range without the high breech pressures (700-1000 MPa) required of conventional gun propulsion systems. Resulting advantages of velocities of this magnitude have been discussed by various authors and can be summarized as improved delivery range, increased target penetration due to higher kinetic energy of the projectile, and enhanced hit probability resulting from the decreased time-of-flight from muzzle to target.
An idealized description of the traveling charge effect has been presented in an earlier work by Smith and is shown in Figure 1. The process is in two stages. Ignition of a conventional granular booster charge is used to rapidly pressurize the chamber and accelerate both the projectile and a very high burning rate (VHBR) traveling cbarge, (TC) attached to the base of the projectile. At some point during this initial pressurization, usually past the peak pressure due to the booster charge, the traveling charge is ignited. Subsequent idealized burning of the TC is tailored to eject combustion products at sufficient velocity so as to maintain constant thrust/pressure on the base of the projectile until burnout of the propellant is achieved. In a conventional gun, high velocities can be achieved by using more propellant. As the projectile leaves the gun, a considerable amount of the chemical energy has gone into accelerating the combustion gases.
This causes a large pressure gradient between the chamber and the projectile. In the traveling charge concept the TC propellant is burning such that the gas velocities at muzzle exit are reduced compared with the conventional charge. Consequently, less chemical energy is used in accelerating the combustion gases. Thus at very high velocities, the traveling charge is expected to be more efficient than conventional propelling charges.

And a smaller blurb from here (Requires PDF reader and a download of the link):

A simplistic view of the traveling charge concept is pictured in Figure 1. A traveling charge (TC) propellant is shown attached to the base of the projectile. The TC projectile is given an initial acceleration from a conventional booster propellant. The TC propellant then ignites after a slight delay to increase the dcwn-bore base pressure on the projectile until muzzle exit.

Basically that could describe what is going on with bolter rounds (as well as potentially expalining why there is a 'casing' at all, why there is recoil and rifling, etc.) I would expect one could modify the concept to add 'rocket-assist' like some artillery has (or gyrojet, I suppose) to maintain the velocity across extended ranges. It wouldn't require much additional thrust (so you could use the rounds even at close range, something that was a drawback with gyrojets) and the rifling already provides stabilization, so no need to muck around with angled thrust vents/ports (again like Gyrojet.) or fins. It would also be much more efficient than conventional solid propellant guns (like stubbers and autoguns) which further distinguishes bolters from other such weapons (and fits with the IA fluff regarding bolters and similar rocket-boosted ammo like baneblade cannon shells which sound like giant bolt rounds.)

As far as 'explosive' goes, I'd have to check my Hague convention history, but I'm pretty sure even expanding/fragmenting bullets have been called 'explosive' in the past. It could be that the explosive component of the bolter isn't really meant to create blast effects but rather to reliably fragment the round inside the target (maybe providing a bit extra velocity on top of what the KE already has). This enables the round to be usefully armor piercing as well as have significant kinetic effects, but also enables it to create large wound channels to reliably incapacitate or kill (which is something you can't do with non-FMJ or yawing ammunition today.) Shrapnel is generally a btter kill mechanism in soft tissues (which are significantly water and rather elastic) than blast effects anyhow (why frag grenades are used more than concussion grenades.)

Mind you, if we're going for really over the top bolter calcs, there's no reason it can't have significant blast AND fragmentation effects (hence a large explosive charge.) but its useful to consider that alternative because it is rather hard to make up a sufficiently powerful/effective chemical explosive that can simulate the required level of damage in that compact a manner (as I said earlier it may require going into 'exotic' territory.)

Edit: Bear in mind I'm not saying bolter rounds HAVE to work the way I described, its just an alternate explanation to cover all possible angles. And in reality, bolter ammo is so variable already that the two kinds are not mutually exlcusive, anyhow.

Warhammer 40K doesn't address one of the most deadly forces in the universe - Radiation.

Most areas of the universe have heavy exposure to radiation and a relatively small blast of radiation is enough to decimate entire cities for decades to come.

Doesn't matter if you're eldar or tyrnaid - if you're organic radiation is going to get you.

Space Marines could combat this by having powerful magentic field generators in their power armor which reflects radiation.

Void shields and gellar fields protect against radiation, as do other kinds of energy fields like storm shields and rosariuses.

For a long time I imagined bolter rounds as gyrojet rounds with explosive tips, for obvious reasons.

More and more I prefer to think of them as kinetic kill vehicle's with a payload of some sort. So much prettier and fancy. And actually makes the ammunition SEEM as important as (some) fluff indicates.

Omnissiah_40K wrote:
Warhammer 40K doesn't address one of the most deadly forces in the universe - Radiation.

Most areas of the universe have heavy exposure to radiation and a relatively small blast of radiation is enough to decimate entire cities for decades to come.

Doesn't matter if you're eldar or tyrnaid - if you're organic radiation is going to get you.

Space Marines could combat this by having powerful magentic field generators in their power armor which reflects radiation.

Well...

Space Marines, Eldar and Tau, as well as other well off Imperials, have the technology and armour to be Rad-protected. Orks have huge regenerative abilities, and likely don't even understand radiation so its not going to effect them going off the Orky belief rule. Tyranids are massive adapt and foreign. Its possible they can adapt a biological system to deal with radiation effects. I remember in 4th Ed there was an upgrade that secreted waxy residue that protected against radiation (+1T I think).

IG, no one cares enough to give them more than a rebreather and say "Don't you even think about dying without permission!"

Kriegsmen get full NBC.

And seriously? Orks don't beleive it so it stop effecting them? That's... gak son...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Kriegsmen get full NBC.

And seriously? Orks don't beleive it so it stop effecting them? That's... gak son...

They can survive hard vacuum because they pay it no mind. They can make useless scrap into workable war machines that is still useless scrap. Is it really so hard to believe they can shrug off something they don't even know exists?

Yes, but then again, the Ork fluff is the stupidest part of 40k, so I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

 Ferros wrote:
For a long time I imagined bolter rounds as gyrojet rounds with explosive tips, for obvious reasons.

More and more I prefer to think of them as kinetic kill vehicle's with a payload of some sort. So much prettier and fancy. And actually makes the ammunition SEEM as important as (some) fluff indicates.

Not to mention that in BL (and iirc in some(FW?) texts) bolter rounds often specifically described as rocket-assisted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

They can survive hard vacuum because they pay it no mind. They can make useless scrap into workable war machines that is still useless scrap. Is it really so hard to believe they can shrug off something they don't even know exists?

Didn't read latest Ork 'dex, but afair in BL Orks can survive SHORT exposure to vacuum - just like SMs with functional and activated corresponding organ. Though IIRC on several occasions they were as vulnerable to vacuum as humans. Prolonged exposure is deadly to baseline Ork, so they're using force-fields (mostly Meks' though somewhere it may be Waagh!-based) to form air bubbles if hull is not sealed.

As for 'workable war machines' from 'useless scrap'...you didn't pay attention to RW - places like ME, Africa and Ukraine. Lot of ork 'wagons' look more sound (though more decorated) than 'vehicles' created there.

And unlike humans Orks have embedded genetic memory thus in right 'trance' state are comparable or better than most RW human engineers or M40s low-rank AMs. In RW qualified engineer with workman skills can build a lot from scrap - but almost everyone lack either said skills,need A LOT of reference materials or not interested in spending so many workhours to build 'off the shelf' parts. I work in heavy industry so often see techological charts for '50s-'60s designs - lot of that can be done (NOT time or cost efficiently) by skilled hands, esp. if you're not value part interchangeability. If you, like Meks, have 'gut feeling' for material and design - you can skip a lot of hassle. Just look how car mechanics balance wheels with lead weights - and then imagine that Ork can see/feel disbalance without equipment during wheel disk manufacturing.
For my view on Orks - read Niven/Pournelle's 'A Mote in God's Eye' book (esp. parts 'bout Engineer and Watchmakers), it definitely influenced WH40K Ork Meks' (and grot) description.

Omnissiah_40K wrote:
Warhammer 40K doesn't address one of the most deadly forces in the universe - Radiation.

Pretty sure it has. Was a big deal in the Shield of Baal.

Most areas of the universe have heavy exposure to radiation and a relatively small blast of radiation is enough to decimate entire cities for decades to come.

We get hit by doses of radiation every day. Its called 'sunlight'. And its only a problem if you spend far too much time in it without adequate cover or protection (known as 'sunblock' or 'clothing'.) Cities seem to do well in it as well.

Doesn't matter if you're eldar or tyrnaid - if you're organic radiation is going to get you.

Radiation is hazardous, but then again so is drinking and overeating and smoking. Too much of anything can be fatal.

Space Marines could combat this by having powerful magentic field generators in their power armor which reflects radiation.

Which might block charged particle radiation (alpha and beta rays, for example) but it's going to do f'in all against x-rays, gamma-rays (or any other form of electromagnetic radiation), not to mention nothing against neutrons (as in enhanced radiation weapons. Neutron bombs.)

Radiation is dangerous, but there's usually specific issues tied to how/why it is dangerous. Like, alpha rays are fatal if they manage to get inside your body, but they actually have horrible penetration and can be stopped by skin and clothing, IIRC.

Is a Narthecium's Reductor capable of piercing Terminator armor?

Unsure. TDA is valuable so you take the helmet off first either way, yes?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Is a Narthecium's Reductor capable of piercing Terminator armor?

In fluff, TDA is so strong that if you manage to kill the marine insides there's not going to be much left to retrieve. Plus, in standard Marine chapters, Termies take on missions far too dangerous to even contemplate sending such an important member alongside them, like boarding Nid ships. Grey Knights instead give them a bodyguard and the armour themselves because they all have the same mission.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Is a Narthecium's Reductor capable of piercing Terminator armor?

Probably, but it is probably a lot more work. Alternately, you actually take the armor apart instead.

Geneseed only needs to be harvested immediately if you will be unable to retrieve the body.

If Orks could make useless scrap work by the power of belief, there would be no point in Mekboyz.

Alcibiades wrote:
If Orks could make useless scrap work by the power of belief, there would be no point in Mekboyz.

No, there's exactly a point in Mekboyz. Mekz build the gak, believe it works because Orky, tells the other boyz it works, they all believe it because Orkz and so it works.

 Deadshot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
If Orks could make useless scrap work by the power of belief, there would be no point in Mekboyz.

No, there's exactly a point in Mekboyz. Mekz build the gak, believe it works because Orky, tells the other boyz it works, they all believe it because Orkz and so it works.

We has a winnar.

 Melissia wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
If Orks could make useless scrap work by the power of belief, there would be no point in Mekboyz.

No, there's exactly a point in Mekboyz. Mekz build the gak, believe it works because Orky, tells the other boyz it works, they all believe it because Orkz and so it works.

We has a winnar.

And there would be no point in this. There would be no point in building anything. They would need convincing orators, not Mekboyz.

More importantly, I don't believe it is stated anywhere in the fluff. Orks, as currently described, create technology using genetically coded knowledge. The do not understand what they are doing, which is why everything looks ramshackle and slapped together. Rather like Moties in the Mote in God's Eye -- which come to think of it is likely the origin of the GW's idea...
They do not pick up sticks and bullets come out of them through the power of belief.

At least, this idea is not anywhere in the 5th ed. codex. Red-painted vehicles go slightly faster and... that's it.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
If Orks could make useless scrap work by the power of belief, there would be no point in Mekboyz.

No, there's exactly a point in Mekboyz. Mekz build the gak, believe it works because Orky, tells the other boyz it works, they all believe it because Orkz and so it works.

We has a winnar.

And there would be no point in this. There would be no point in building anything. They would need convincing orators, not Mekboyz.

More importantly, I don't believe it is stated anywhere in the fluff. Orks, as currently described, create technology using genetically coded knowledge. The do not understand what they are doing, which is why everything looks ramshackle and slapped together. Rather like Moties in the Mote in God's Eye -- which come to think of it is likely the origin of the GW's idea...
They do not pick up sticks and bullets come out of them through the power of belief.

At least, this idea is not anywhere in the 5th ed. codex. Red-painted vehicles go slightly faster and... that's it.

You misinterpret everything I said.

For a start, they don't need skilled orators. They need Meks. Why? Because Orkz.

Every Ork knows that da Mekz build the stompies and the shootas and they da best at it. So if a Mek build a Stompa, which by all laws of physics should not be able to move, be it be design or the inefficiency of using all its fossil fuel in one minute, as well as the favt it should destroy itself by moving due to the ramshackle nature, but that Mek tells the boyz it should work, they will not question it, because Mekz know that stuff best and Orkz just want to focus on the krumpin'

Second, I didn't say they picked up sticks and made bullets fly out. Why? Because they don't believe bullets should fly out! They could however, cut out a section for a belt feed to pass through, add a grip and a trigger, and it still work, despite lacking a hammer or automatic reloading system, because it looks like a gun innit? So it's gonna shoot like a shoota and go bang like a shoota and kill humies dead like a shoota! Simple!

No, just no, its like that idiocy where Orks don't know waht radition is so it can't affect them.


They're going to need a functionning system for their gun to fire, maybe they can use random ammo and not care, and maybe it works better than it should, but no, a stick with a trigger and a belt will do exactly nothing for the Orks no matter how strong they beleive.

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, just no, its like that idiocy where Orks don't know waht radition is so it can't affect them.


They're going to need a functionning system for their gun to fire, maybe they can use random ammo and not care, and maybe it works better than it should, but no, a stick with a trigger and a belt will do exactly nothing for the Orks no matter how strong they beleive.

Maybe it's telekinesis, a large scale telekinesis ability specifically moves bullets, shells, slugs, cannon balls and rockets. Ever thought of that?

Here's the logic:
The premises:
1. 40K is a universe where psychic powers exists. These powers can bend the laws of physics because the power themselves are the stuffs that make up a realm that have no physical presence. The psychic powers are "channeled" through a median in the real-space, through their minds. The energy of the warp, through the channeler that connects the realspace and the immaterium can affect the physical properties of objects, against the laws of physics, and even influence the minds of others.
2. Orks have mass psychic fields powered by their sheer presence. And as the Waaagh! gathers the strong this phenomena grows. Potent Ork psykers like the Weirdboy can actually harness these powers to devastating (an potentially hilariously disastrous) effects.
3. Ork Technologies are crude yet surprisingly effective. And in other races' hands their effect arbitrarily diminishes despite theirs are just a barrel and a trigger.

reasoning:
because a mechanical weapon would function, under the same circumstances, functions with a high level of consistency i.e.: similar outcome regardless of users, the Ork weapons are not mechanically sound. The basic Ork weapon behavior is consistent with the Orks, but not with non-Orks. Therefore the Ork weapons does not obey the laws of physics in its entirety.
The effects of the Ork items are subjective to the identities of their users, the effects of warp powers are subjective to the will of the psykers that channels them.

conclusion:
Ork weapons uses Warp magic

Celestine and the Living Saints did confound me at first, whether they used tech or some wibbly-wobbly-faith/magic/sorcery/whatever to shoot fire and so on.

But... I mean, it's clearly something very odd here.



She also shoots fire without a flamer and flies without a jump pack.

You know who else does that? Librarians.

HMMM.