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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys are overcomplicating the situation.

Saturation of Dark Lances should be just fine (and as far as I know about the new Dark Eldar codex, it shouldn't be hard to accomplish). 3++ is good, but it'll fail 1/3 of the time. Just keep firing until he's dead.

The new DE codex limits the number of lances that can be taken by making them all around more expensive. It's like telling a SM player they have to spam lascannons

 Exergy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The new DE codex limits the number of lances that can be taken by making them all around more expensive. It's like telling a SM player they have to spam lascannons

An Overlord on a Chariot is the most pimped out character the Necrons and all their advanced technology can muster, and it's still not as good as the Space Wolf Chariot, and you want a "cheap" solution to dealing with it ?

The entire Necron theme is hard to kill.

Really people don't think that a 6 man Reaver squad w/ 2D6 HoW and 4 HoW ST4. Wouldn't blow that up?

Especially with Heat Lances or whatever.

Hollismason wrote:
Really people don't think that a 6 man Reaver squad w/ 2D6 HoW and 4 HoW ST4. Wouldn't blow that up?

Especially with Heat Lances or whatever.

No. They probably won't. Heat lances are only str 6, so they will obviously be taken on the T5 rider. The HoW hits will be put on the vehicle, which is AV13. You need to roll a 6 on the damage table, followed by another 5 or 6. If you charge you will do around 1 hull point of damage.

Reavers might hurt it a little bit but they won't be likely to kill it in any reasonable amount of time.

I would say cc is the only reliable way to bring it down. Grotesques will take it down with poison and potential instant death. You really need an IC with these guys,, as their low LD is an issue. (Is the LD of a character factored in when rolling for MSS? I don't know, as usually it is the character that it is used on.)

HQ's:
Archon - Fail, ineffective shooting and combat. Can try and tank with shadow field, but is ID with 1st failed save.
Succubus: Fail. Can't effectively wound T5, can't get past 3+ invul.
Haemonculus: Fail. Can't get past 2+ armor.
Urien, Ld9 is mindshackle bait, can't get past 2+ armor.
Lelith and Drazhar: T5 2+/3++ to much to take.
Warriors: Lance/Blasters, needs 3+ to hit, 4+ to glance, 3+ invul. 9 shots = 1 glance. Best so far.
Wyches: If you can make it into combat, you might be able to tank the CCB.
Incubi: Fail. Full sized squad does less then 3 wounds. Worse with mind shackles and HoW.
Mandrakes: Fail. too weak.
Wracks: Fail, full squad does 1.25 wounds.
Grotesques: Mindshackle is a problem (ld3!), and only does 1.5 wounds after saves.
Beast Packs: Full 12 Clawed Fiends can kill him on the charge, good luck arriving in good shape.
Reavers: Massed Reavers (12 or more for 4 caltrops) has a chance through massed rending hits.
Hellions: Fail. (at everything)
Razorwing: expensive dark lances.
Scourge: blasters.
Talos: 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, no save. 5 attacks on the charge, if you can catch him.
Cronos: worse than Talos.
Ravager: not as effective as blasters/lances on other platforms.
Void Bomber: more expensive for what's effectively 3 blasters.
Allies: Wraith Knight, and hope to pass the shackles test.

So what's likely to work:
Lots of Lance/Blaster shots. Like 27 of them.
Talos, if you can catch him, beasts and reavers could be send in to do the final wound, but I wouldn't go against a fresh CCB.

You could try shooting the CCB as it moves forward, tarpit it in the assault phase, and then finish it off with the Talos.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys are overcomplicating the situation.

Saturation of Dark Lances should be just fine (and as far as I know about the new Dark Eldar codex, it shouldn't be hard to accomplish). 3++ is good, but it'll fail 1/3 of the time. Just keep firing until he's dead.

Its just not that simple. Lets mathhammer this out.

You want to deal 3 wounds so you need to get by its 3++ save (x3) wound on 2+ (x6/5) and hit on 3+ (x3/2)

That comes out 16.2 lances you need to fire at the CCB. That is a ton and is probably going to but most if not all of your lances in a single turn plus a lot of those lances are in the middle of units that could be doing something else such as in a warrior squad or a raider. Its just not a very efficient way of dealing it.

And then it reanimates.

Reanimation is going to be on a 5+. The chance is in your favor.

The mathhammer shows that the number of Lance shots needed isn't that bad. It takes a few turns with pure lances, but I fail to see the issue.

Grotesques: Mindshackle is a problem (ld3!), and only does 1.5 wounds after saves.

Only 1.5 wounds? What's the problem here? The overlord only has 3 wounds.

If using a coven army or detachment I think these would be especially fine. After turn 2 you will be fearless, so won't be going anywhere. You will tarpit the chariot, and take it out after a few rounds.

Is everyone taking crazy pills?

 Frozocrone wrote:
Talos SMASH!!!!

I kid of course, you need to catch it and it's faster than you.

This could be where a unit of ten Wyches has a place in your army - 50 points holding 240+ at bay? Yes, please.

A tarpit unit of Wyches could work.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys are overcomplicating the situation.

Saturation of Dark Lances should be just fine (and as far as I know about the new Dark Eldar codex, it shouldn't be hard to accomplish). 3++ is good, but it'll fail 1/3 of the time. Just keep firing until he's dead.

Its just not that simple. Lets mathhammer this out.

You want to deal 3 wounds so you need to get by its 3++ save (x3) wound on 2+ (x6/5) and hit on 3+ (x3/2)

That comes out 16.2 lances you need to fire at the CCB. That is a ton and is probably going to but most if not all of your lances in a single turn plus a lot of those lances are in the middle of units that could be doing something else such as in a warrior squad or a raider. Its just not a very efficient way of dealing it.

And then it reanimates.

Reanimation is going to be on a 5+. The chance is in your favor.

The mathhammer shows that the number of Lance shots needed isn't that bad. It takes a few turns with pure lances, but I fail to see the issue.

You don't have a few turns with lances. You get 1 then its in your lines killing stuff. You aren't going to have enough lances to kill it in one go.

Throw a big squad of Grotesques at it. Only has quantum shielding on the front. The rest of it is tissue paper.

Chariots are hit on front armor (in melee).

I think 6 reavers with 2 blasters is a good solution.

a Kitted out CCB with res orb, phylactery, phase shifter, warscythe, MSS, and lord is 285pts.

You can get 2 x (6 reavers with 2 blasters and 2 caltrops) for 292

which is 7 pts more...

1 squad of reavers charging alone, would be 2d6 str6 rending hits + 4 str 4 rending hits, then a bunch of attacks at I6 before MSS+lord attacks. As you can put all of the hits on the lord, you are looking at ~ 1-2 rends, 5 non rending wounds from hammer of wrath, and then 1 more wound on average at I6, for a total of 8 saves, statistically there is a good chance even with a 3++ the lord will lose 3 wounds right there, even if it doesn't you now have it locked in combat.

consider that is about half the cost of the kitted out lord on ccb, which is what many people run for CCB lords, and does not include the 2 blaster shots which could very well wound the lord or drop the QS on the CCB, which if were the case you could just pull the HOW hits onto the ccb armor 11, would would see on average ~ 4 hp done, which will kill the unit.

col_impact wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Ram the thing.

Probably the best chance to cause a pen to remove the shell.

And no jinks allowed

But 3++ on CCB blah blah blah moving on

That still requires you to run the Tantalus because nothing in DE can ram the CCB so it will have a huge target on its head (plus need to be running FW)

Not everyone agrees on the 3++
Tough nvm i forgot they changed the raming strength to armor not distance.

Couldnt reavers HoW a pen?

The Space Wolves codex came out and clarified how chariots work a bit better. The phase shifter grants a 3++ to the chariot profile, RAW and RAI. The non-necron community will try to argue this away, but they don't have rules justification for doing so. If people bother playing out the chariot with the 3++ they will find it is only a minor buff (except for the case of D weapons in CC).

RAI?

Comparing the Space Wolf Book to the Necron is like comparing apples to hand grenades.

The Necron book was written for 5th, we are now in 7th. I guarantee they had no intentions for its interaction in 7th when they designed that thing or it's upgrades.

Also whats with creating a false divide in the community? Non-necron community? Get off your High horse, most people play multiple armies. I play 5 armies and I play them all conservatively. ie I don't play with an abusive advantage created from grandfathered rules from 2 editions ago. It's not even like its necessary to make it amazing.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The new DE codex limits the number of lances that can be taken by making them all around more expensive. It's like telling a SM player they have to spam lascannons

An Overlord on a Chariot is the most pimped out character the Necrons and all their advanced technology can muster, and it's still not as good as the Space Wolf Chariot, and you want a "cheap" solution to dealing with it ?

The entire Necron theme is hard to kill.

Space wolves can take it as a LOW and it's unique. Necrons can take as many as they have HQ slots. Massive difference.

This crappy analogy needs to stop.

blaktoof wrote:
I think 6 reavers with 2 blasters is a good solution.

a Kitted out CCB with res orb, phylactery, phase shifter, warscythe, MSS, and lord is 285pts.

You can get 2 x (6 reavers with 2 blasters and 2 caltrops) for 292

which is 7 pts more...

1 squad of reavers charging alone, would be 2d6 str6 rending hits + 4 str 4 rending hits, then a bunch of attacks at I6 before MSS+lord attacks. As you can put all of the hits on the lord, you are looking at ~ 1-2 rends, 5 non rending wounds from hammer of wrath, and then 1 more wound on average at I6, for a total of 8 saves, statistically there is a good chance even with a 3++ the lord will lose 3 wounds right there, even if it doesn't you now have it locked in combat.

With 2+/3++ and T5, If you pass the Ld8 test on 3 dice, you're averaging less then 1.5 wounds. Per squad.
If the MSS takes out a Caltrop guy, you've lost a good chunk of your hitting power.
2 full units, all getting in, and getting shots off on the way will do it. And then have a 50/50 he gets back up.
In a TAC build, firing a few shots and then charging is the best solution.

If the necron player expects DE, he'll have the Gauntlet of Fire, instead of the warscythe. Wall of death will drop one on the way in, and any template is a threat to a DE army.

 Red Corsair wrote:

RAI?

Comparing the Space Wolf Book to the Necron is like comparing apples to hand grenades.

The Necron book was written for 5th, we are now in 7th. I guarantee they had no intentions for its interaction in 7th when they designed that thing or it's upgrades.

Also whats with creating a false divide in the community? Non-necron community? Get off your High horse, most people play multiple armies. I play 5 armies and I play them all conservatively. ie I don't play with an abusive advantage created from grandfathered rules from 2 editions ago. It's not even like its necessary to make it amazing.

Yes, RAI. GW published new chariot rules for 7th edition and a new necron FAQ for 7th edition. We have fresh rules for dealing with necron chariots from them. RAW its very clear that the phase shifter confers to the chariot. Your argument is that they messed up in their fresh rulings and left an unintended interaction in there between phase shifter and the chariot so that its not RAI. This idea gained traction because a lot of stuff about these chariots is unprecedented and a conservative approach seemed warranted. However, with the release of the Space Wolves codex came a lot of clarification and a lot of precedent straight from a GW codex that was written entirely for 7th edition. The Space Wolves chariot has an invul save that is conferred from the Belt of Russ. Moreover, how the codex handles the chariot makes it clear that the USR of the rider and the wargear (e.g. terminator armour's deep strike ability) confer to the chariot unless otherwise blocked.

I used to think that the 3++ on the chariot was some easter egg (unintended buff) of a 5th edition codex in a 7th edition ruleset. But, with the release of the Space Wolves codex and the new information about chariots that can be gleaned from that codex it becomes crystal clear that RAW and RAI the phase shifter confers to the chariot. So my argument is that the 7th edition FAQ is fine as is to play RAW and we should play it that way unless the power level of the chariot is a problem. I have been playing it that way for a while and its not a problem.
So if you haven't already I suggest you read the Space Wolves codex and take careful note of how chariots are intended by GW to be handled. Then we can have a discussion about RAI. If you haven't read up on the SW codex, you haven't done your homework yet. And since you are advocating going directly against RAW you better be up to date on your homework.

your comparison of the SW chariot versus CCB is very flawed.

the Necron chariot has no Invulnerable save, the lord does.

The SW chariot has a invulnerable save, the specifies it extends to the rider and beasts pulling it.

If the necron codex specified the chariot had a save that extended to the rider then it would be a good comparison, currently that is not the case however.

additionally I am not sure what rules you think are the in faq that cover phase shifter extending to the chariot, but there is nothing even remotely close to that discussed in the faq or errata for the necron codex, and there is not a SW faq yet.

blaktoof wrote:
your comparison of the SW chariot versus CCB is very flawed.

the Necron chariot has no Invulnerable save, the lord does.

The SW chariot has a invulnerable save, the specifies it extends to the rider and beasts pulling it.

If the necron codex specified the chariot had a save that extended to the rider then it would be a good comparison, currently that is not the case however.

additionally I am not sure what rules you think are the in faq that cover phase shifter extending to the chariot, but there is nothing even remotely close to that discussed in the faq or errata for the necron codex, and there is not a SW faq yet.

Read the entry for phase shifter in the necron codex. Then read the rules for chariots, especially the first paragraph and how we treat the chariot. RAW, the chariot has 3++ if the rider buys the phase shifter. It's all RAW and has been recognized as such for a long time. The controversy surrounds RAI and not RAW.

I fail to see anything supporting your claim, maybe you should quote some actual rules to support such a claim and put it in YMDC. Your personal recognition of this does not mean it is RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
I fail to see anything supporting your claim, maybe you should quote some actual rules to support such a claim and put it in YMDC. Your personal recognition of this does not mean it is RAW.

There are only 3 chariots in all of 40K, what esle am I supposed to compare the CCB to, other than the other chariots in 40K ?

I don't have a Demon Codex handy, does the Chaos Chariot get a 5++ save for Demonic ?

blaktoof wrote:
I fail to see anything supporting your claim, maybe you should quote some actual rules to support such a claim and put it in YMDC. Your personal recognition of this does not mean it is RAW.

So you're failing to read the Chariot and phase shifter rules? Phase shifter gives the model a 3+ invulnerable. How many models is an Overlord on CCB?

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I fail to see anything supporting your claim, maybe you should quote some actual rules to support such a claim and put it in YMDC. Your personal recognition of this does not mean it is RAW.

So you're failing to read the Chariot and phase shifter rules? Phase shifter gives the model a 3+ invulnerable. How many models is an Overlord on CCB?

A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the
Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is
always treated as a single model. For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the
rider’s profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model
apply to both rider and Chariot.

That would be one.

 adamsouza wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I fail to see anything supporting your claim, maybe you should quote some actual rules to support such a claim and put it in YMDC. Your personal recognition of this does not mean it is RAW.

So you're failing to read the Chariot and phase shifter rules? Phase shifter gives the model a 3+ invulnerable. How many models is an Overlord on CCB?

A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the
Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is
always treated as a single model. For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the
rider’s profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a Chariot model
apply to both rider and Chariot.

That would be one.

What are the exact rules for the 2+ save weave? Does the CCB also get a 2+ armor save?

 Exergy wrote:

What are the exact rules for the 2+ save weave? Does the CCB also get a 2+ armor save?

Sure. But it doesn't do anything. Armour saves have no effect on hits allocated to vehicles.

Says who?

Nowhere is it written that vehicles CANT take armor saves.

And if you say that "not saying it CAN either", I'll point out that it never actually says vehicles can take invuls either.

And I doubt anyone has any interpretation of RAI that armor worn by the rider is supposed to give an armor save to the chariot itself.


As for the daemon chariot, it unquestionably gets the save because the chariot itself is noted to be a daemon.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Says who?

Nowhere is it written that vehicles CANT take armor saves.

Under Armor Saves

"To take an armour save, roll a D6 and compare the result to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound."

Vehicles can't be allocated wounds so they can't take armor saves.

Frankly, if somebody tried to pull off a "CCB armour save", I'd punch them in the face to check its armour save. I highly doubt anyone but a TFG would try to pull off such a thing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Says who?

Nowhere is it written that vehicles CANT take armor saves.

And if you say that "not saying it CAN either", I'll point out that it never actually says vehicles can take invuls either.

And I doubt anyone has any interpretation of RAI that armor worn by the rider is supposed to give an armor save to the chariot itself.


As for the daemon chariot, it unquestionably gets the save because the chariot itself is noted to be a daemon.

"Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound or, in the case of vehicles, suffers a penetrating or glancing hit – the Armour Piercing value of attacking weapons has no effect on an invulnerable save."