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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
There is a distinct difference between getting in because you are good at football to getting financial aid so you get to go to a college you got accepted into


The people that get accepted because they are good football players are only competing with other players for admission. Once the school decides to field a team they need players, regardless of whether or not it's scholarship level football the school still needs players. If you're not being recruited by a coach you're not competing for the same spots. It shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand.

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Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






No, they are taking spots from Academics. Spots that can be used for infinitly better things if you ask me.
I say Recruit from the student body already there. Make Football what it is meant to be, and extracurricular activity.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No, they are taking spots from Academics. Spots that can be used for infinitly better things if you ask me.
I say Recruit from the student body already there. Make Football what it is meant to be, and extracurricular activity.


No they aren't. Football scholarships are for football players. If there wasn't a team those scholarships just disappear and so do the admission spots. For non scholarship football like Div3 it's the same. The school is fielding a football team so they need players which means they need to admit a certain number of students willing to play. If there are 2 applicants and one wants to play football and the other just wants to focus on academics the football player is more likely to get in because the school needs him more. Schools fund athletic departments and pay coaches to win games so when a coach says I need this player admitted the admissions department listens. Even in Div3 with no scholarships the school has a certain number of admission slots set aside for players the coach wants admitted that are only open for football player applicants. Football players and all other athletes still need to meet the same minimum requirements for admission as every other student and have maintain a minimum GPA to be eligible to play.

You don't have to like the way it works but you don't need to lie about it either. Applicants who don't play sports aren't competing against ones that do for admissions because they are in separate admission pools.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/25 17:58:30


Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Prestor Jon wrote:
Even in Div3 with no scholarships the school has a certain number of admission slots set aside for players the coach wants admitted that are only open for football player applicants.


That generally varies according to the school and, more properly, the AD.

Prestor Jon wrote:
For non scholarship football like Div3 it's the same. The school is fielding a football team so they need players which means they need to admit a certain number of students willing to play.


Many D3 schools develop their teams with players that aren't immediately willing to play, regardless of sport. That's what my D3 school did.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/25 18:20:26


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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Member of the Ethereal Council






Prestor Jon wrote:


You don't have to like the way it works but you don't need to lie about it either. Applicants who don't play sports aren't competing against ones that do for admissions because they are in separate admission pools.

They are though. Football Scholarships should not EXIST. Universities should stay for acadmics. Those spots in the dorms, in the classes for the FB players are spots not given t those who deserve it

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Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:


You don't have to like the way it works but you don't need to lie about it either. Applicants who don't play sports aren't competing against ones that do for admissions because they are in separate admission pools.

They are though. Football Scholarships should not EXIST. Universities should stay for acadmics. Those spots in the dorms, in the classes for the FB players are spots not given t those who deserve it


This is a moronic circle we're going through.

Non-Athletes GO TO SCHOOLS to support athletic programs. People travel to college campus to watch games and support athletic programs, putting billions of dollars into those collective cities' economies every Saturday.

A single Division 1 football player is worth more to their respective university than you will ever be, hotsauceman. Deal with it.

Athletic scholarships SHOULD absolutely exist, and not just for the BIG 2 sports, and just because you're unathletic and resent athletic people doesn't change that.

Your resentment, at this point, is pretty sad and pathetic.

 
   
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It is hard to believe that there are gamers who seem to hate athletics and athletes.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






 cincydooley wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:


You don't have to like the way it works but you don't need to lie about it either. Applicants who don't play sports aren't competing against ones that do for admissions because they are in separate admission pools.

They are though. Football Scholarships should not EXIST. Universities should stay for acadmics. Those spots in the dorms, in the classes for the FB players are spots not given t those who deserve it


This is a moronic circle we're going through.

Non-Athletes GO TO SCHOOLS to support athletic programs. People travel to college campus to watch games and support athletic programs, putting billions of dollars into those collective cities' economies every Saturday.

A single Division 1 football player is worth more to their respective university than you will ever be, hotsauceman. Deal with it.

Athletic scholarships SHOULD absolutely exist, and not just for the BIG 2 sports, and just because you're unathletic and resent athletic people doesn't change that.

Your resentment, at this point, is pretty sad and pathetic.

Its a great day when you decide to insult someone you are having an argument with.
And I dont hate them, I hate that they get spots in schools for students who deserve it and take classes that automaticall pass them when I have to work to just get a B-. IT is bs and it is not something we should support

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Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Its a great day when you decide to insult someone you are having an argument with.


I've thought your argument was sad and foolish this entire time. I thought that was pretty clear.

I mean, if you want I can start listing college athletes/former college athletes that are unequivocally smarter than you if you'd like. We can probably even start on Dakka with Dogma and myself, though we were ONLY division 3.


And I dont hate them, I hate that they get spots in schools for students who deserve it and take classes that automaticall pass them when I have to work to just get a B-. IT is bs and it is not something we should support


Except, as many of us have pointed out already, that it simply isn't the case.

But I'll let you prove it. Show me some instances with supported facts where an athlete that "didn't deserve it" got into a university instead of "students that deserve it."

You'll also need to define the parameters for worthiness, since you seem to be deeming yourself the arbiter of university admission validity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 19:55:19


 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Just look at the OP.
A Student, Who could not read at past elementary lvl got into UNC.
Im sure there are tons of students who deserve a spot at universities over someone who cant properly read Harry Potter.

And I think your Argument is Foolish, But then again, we all know you hate universities.

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Made in us
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But then again, we all know you hate universities.


Still trotting out this tired "argument" out, eh?

The fact that you don't even have a basic understanding of my view on the university system in the US and keep retreading this statement doesn't reflect too kindly on you, honestly.

 
   
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And the fact you are resorting to saying that I am an Idealist with not way the world works and insulting my major and several other majors doesnt reflect well on you. And you keep saying "Im sorry you where bullied by FB players" When then never happened.
I know your view. You do not like them. You think anyone under a B should go into a trade even if they dont want to.

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Cincinnati, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And the fact you are resorting to saying that I am an Idealist with not way the world works and insulting my major and several other majors doesnt reflect well on you.


I don't even know what your major is, so that dog don't hunt. I'm sure it's communication or social work or something like that, though*.

*For clarity, I think social work is a noble (and vastly underpaid) endeavor. Basing this on the sociology classes you've said you're taking.

And you keep saying "Im sorry you where bullied by FB players" When then never happened.


Then please, elaborate where your massive levels of resentment come from. Because it's coming from somewhere. Picked last all the time in dodgeball? Never any good at sports yourself? The baseball team 'bullied' you instead of the football players? Has to be something.


I know your view. You do not like them. You think anyone under a B should go into a trade even if they dont want to.


Well, with that statement, it simply proves you don't. I won't rehash it, but much of it involves the economics of education, the criminality of student lending, and a floundering economy that doesn't set graduates up to succeed.

So I'll say again: no, you don't understand my position on higher education at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 20:15:39


 
   
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 cincydooley wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
And the fact you are resorting to saying that I am an Idealist with not way the world works and insulting my major and several other majors doesnt reflect well on you.


I don't even know what your major is, so that dog don't hunt. I'm sure it's communication or social work or something like that, though.

And you keep saying "Im sorry you where bullied by FB players" When then never happened.


Then please, elaborate where your massive levels of resentment come from. Because it's coming from somewhere. Picked last all the time in dodgeball? Never any good at sports yourself? The baseball team 'bullied' you instead of the football players? Has to be something.
.

1: It is Sociological Research.
2: My resentment comes from my love of academia. My love of College and my hatred of things the destroy it. Same reason I hate campus police. They hurt the reputation of schools, they should be gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cincydooley wrote:


So I'll say again: no, you don't understand my position on higher education at all.

Well then, you dont Understand my position.
But Screw this, I drove 3 hours to come home and get away from University for the weekend while my Knee heals. Im going to lay down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 20:18:33


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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
1: It is Sociological Research.


Unless you are published that actually doesn't mean that much. Last I checked you are an undergraduate that hasn't even finished. Try not to put the cart before the horse, or to start with a conclusion for that matter.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
2: My resentment comes from my love of academia. My love of College and my hatred of things the destroy it.


Academics and sports are not anathema to each other, and trotting out the "well I'm smart they are stupid argument" doesn't really hold a lot of water. There are terrible students who are not athletes and athletes that are excellent students. There are elements of sporting that are problematic, but there are also a lot of problems on the academic/research side as well. Perhaps you haven't seen them yet or just don't want to, but as you progress they will become more evident. With the sports programs it is often more obvious what the issues are because it is such a visible element whereas the other side is not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/25 21:30:16


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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 Ahtman wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
1: It is Sociological Research.


Unless you are published that actually doesn't mean that much. Last I checked you are an undergraduate that hasn't even finished. Try not to put the cart before the horse, or to start with a conclusion for that matter.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
2: My resentment comes from my love of academia. My love of College and my hatred of things the destroy it.


Academics and sports are not anathema to each other, and trotting out the "well I'm smart they are stupid argument" doesn't really hold a lot of water. There are terrible students who are not athletes and athletes that are excellent students. There are elements of sporting that are problematic, but there are also a lot of problems on the academic/research side as well. Perhaps you haven't seen them yet or just don't want to, but as you progress they will become more evident. With the sports programs it is often more obvious what the issues are because it is such a visible element whereas the other side is not.

1: I am an undergrad. But that is my major and I hope to go into it(And Actually, In my School, Upper Division Undergrads get to participate with Proffs ad get credit in research papers)
2: Oh, I know there are tons of problem. Im just ragging on sports because that is the topic of this thread. I also hate how money gets you into schools or Parentage. And how the UC system is now accept twice as many International students when the UCs where made and subsidized for Californian students.
I also hate how so many school Preach the First Amendment, but then go around expelling students for hate speech

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Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

To all of you who can't argue nicely. Disagree without the personal insults, incendiary language, etc or the thread will get locked and you'll get a warning

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 22:04:40


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:


You don't have to like the way it works but you don't need to lie about it either. Applicants who don't play sports aren't competing against ones that do for admissions because they are in separate admission pools.

They are though. Football Scholarships should not EXIST. Universities should stay for acadmics. Those spots in the dorms, in the classes for the FB players are spots not given t those who deserve it


Schools that are internationally known for their academics still have athletic departments. All of the Ivy League schools field numerous sports, MIT plays 33 different varsity sports on the D3 level, Stanford, Cal, Duke, Georgia Tech, and Vanderbilt all play multiple Div1 sports including football, Johns Hopkins plays multiple sports including Div1 lacrosse. None of these schools would see their reputations or their academic standing decrease if they didn't play sports but they all chose to play and pour resources into their athletic departments. If the strongest academic institutions choose to play sports then it clearly isn't inherently detrimental to academic performance.

I don't understand why you think schools need to push for more students to major in astrophysics and theoretical mathmatics since you want students to follow Tyson and Hawking. Of the tens of millions of jobs people do in the US, only a tiny fraction of them probably require intimate knowledge of astrophysics and similar fields. Besides, smart applicants that want to major in hard science fields like that aren't having any trouble getting into college.

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 dogma wrote:

Anyway your attitude is the sort I fought against throughout college and grad school. I had to hide the fact that I made a habit of working out and playing sports because many people (professors included) assumed that doing either indicated a lack of intelligence or academic ability.



Ironically, I almost have to "hide" the fact that I served in the military, as a good chunk of people do the same to me (even though, as any tech related thread will indicate, I'm not a complete moron )
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
1: I am an undergrad. But that is my major and I hope to go into it(And Actually, In my School, Upper Division Undergrads get to participate with Proffs ad get credit in research papers)


No one said that it wasn't your major but as of this time you haven't had enough education or professional experience to throw it around like you are a professional in the field; everyone in your school is doing 'research'. Your school isn't unique in that program and others do it as well, but I don't believe you've done that yet. If you do get co-credit it would need to be in something related to this discussion to be relevant. A paper on changing traffic patterns in low income areas due to job loss wouldn't really be all that useful. I'm not saying you shouldn't want to go into the field or that you shouldn't even like it, just that presenting yourself as an expert before you actually are is not a good idea, just as presenting one's self as a doctor while still in Pre-med isn't a good idea. If you have a thought just say it, don't use yourself an appeal to authority when you aren't yet an authority.


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I never presented myself as an expert. I know very little. Cindy guessed at my major and I said Social Research

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Just think that the present (time frame) going into the future its going to be job specific courses minus the additional outside courses one has to take.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jihadin wrote:

Just think that the present (time frame) going into the future its going to be job specific courses minus the additional outside courses one has to take.



I know Evergreen State has gone so far as to get rid of ALL undergrad programs... you simply get "A" bachelor's degree there; Basically, you determine your curriculum, and as a graduating requirement, you have a "personal advertisement" about WHY you took what courses you did, and what your end goal is (Ie, "I want to be a history teacher, so I took 120 credits of history courses in my 4 years at Evergreen")
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 dogma wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Even in Div3 with no scholarships the school has a certain number of admission slots set aside for players the coach wants admitted that are only open for football player applicants.


That generally varies according to the school and, more properly, the AD.

Prestor Jon wrote:
For non scholarship football like Div3 it's the same. The school is fielding a football team so they need players which means they need to admit a certain number of students willing to play.


Many D3 schools develop their teams with players that aren't immediately willing to play, regardless of sport. That's what my D3 school did.


I would be very surprised if any of the coaches at your alma mater didn't speak with any HS students who came to campus to visit and spoke with the coaches of the teams they were considering playing for. Even D3 has current players host potential applicants for visits. During those visits coaches may advise the aspiring applicants to apply via early decision to increase their odds of acceptance, depending on their academic and athletic prowess. The coaches will also speak to the admissions office on behalf of players to help increase their chances of acceptance. I don't see the point in a school investing the money and resources to have facilities, trainers and coaches only to then let the coaches sit back not care who gets in and hope that enough students want to participate so they can field a team.

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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I never presented myself as an expert. I know very little. Cindy guessed at my major and I said Social Research


This isn't the first time you have mentioned it, and no one said you specifically used the words "I'm an expert" but what did do as pass yourself off as a professional in the field even though you are still, essentially, in training. If it isn't your intent you may want to frame your statements differently.

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Ok, it is not my intent, i am in no way an expert. And how did I pass myself off as an expert

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I don't think HSM presented himself as an expert at any point, actually, re-reading this last page. He was explicitly asked what his major was, and then answered, flat out, sociological research. He didn't build it into an appeal to authority, or hell into anything else, just answered a direct question and moved on.

(I can't speak to any other threads, if that is being referenced here.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 21:16:40


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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WA, USA

Gonna have to agree with Ouze on this. While I do not frequently agree with HSM (especially on his very harsh and venomous stance here), I see nothing where he proclaims himself and expert.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 21:18:00


 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
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I missed in the quote block where it was asked what his major was so it seemed as though he just brought it up as an appeal to authority, which is not an unusual thing for undergrads to do My apologies for the misunderstanding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 21:57:21


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
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Cincinnati, Ohio

 Ahtman wrote:
I missed in the quote block where it was asked what his major was so it seemed as though he just brought it up as an appeal to authority, which is not an unusual thing for undergrads to do My apologies for the misunderstanding.


It's okay. There are plenty of other reasons to tell HSM that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, or is totally off base, in this thread.

 
   
 
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