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2016/01/30 22:50:50
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
I'm surprised your comments are still there, frankly. Alright looking at KS some more, it doesn't look like they can delete comments. There's some angry stuff there I imagine would be gone if it could. Unless a certain someone really HAS changed, and doesn't want to keep burying things like the old days.
Maybe grab a couple screenshots anyway, just in case. Calling upset customers "trolling" is worth being able to recall, I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/30 22:55:08
2016/01/30 23:06:00
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
@Firebreak - The Pod is now learning that they can't control the conversation on Kickstarter. They will have to ask KS to delete the comments, which likely can't happen until Monday morning, at the earliest.
Depending on my level of outrage, it may be worthwhile to demand public accountability - something that the Pod is not used to. ____
@Alpharius - a week ago, Dream Pod 9 "altered the deal," a la Palladium. The Pod unilaterally took it upon themselves to remove 2 of the models that they had promised to backers during the Kickstarter, replacing them with a few weapons bitz, rather than substituting them with other models. I've decided to call them on it, and they're obviously not happy about that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/30 23:11:21
Ah, well, people rarely respond well when they're called on stuff.
Still, I can't believe that they didn't 'spend' the money that they needed to as soon as they could in order to 'protect' against currency fluctuations, especially for stuff that was going to require USD.
2016/01/30 23:27:47
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
They've also conveniently forgotten that at some point during the KS campaign itself they chose to restructure the reward levels in favor of the Caprician mounts, as well as tweaking something about the proposed retail backer box.
As originally started there was like an $18K stretch for the rulebook that in hindsight seems more like a buffer. (NSFW dArt site link.)
Dream Pod 9, about 2 hours ago, wrote:To all our supporters, unfortunately we can't control trolling here on Kickstarter. Wish Jay and Silent Bob were here to deal with this. ;-)
Creator Dream Pod 9 about 1 hour ago
... there are some haters out there.
This is the fundamental problem with DP9. I have seen it in private conversation with them too.
To them, criticism is not motivated by a desire to improve the game or fix a problem. It is motivated by a desire to complain.
If they get a lot of criticism from one person, it's not because that person cares about the game and wants it to improve, it's because that person hates them and the game, and wants it to fail.
I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more of an attempt at spin control for Robert's "hater" message.
Who does something like that in the middle of a campaign exhorting folks to pledge money to the company they represent. [..]
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yeah, but then, had they communicated and gone through the motions of telling people in advance, soliciting backer feedback, all of this unpleasantness could have been avoided.
Yes, the Pod folks very definitely did not let slip that there were any problems of that nature on the horizon as they instead spent the first two weeks of the month dropping hints of how great everything was going to be in the near future.
Smilodon_UP wrote: The thing I'm actually most curious about is how long have TPTB in Pod-land known this was going to be an issue, because this decision is pretty much a total 180-degree change from the comments made after the last previous updates of substantial news.[..]
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/30 23:35:20
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2016/01/30 23:29:53
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
Yeah, but then, had they communicated and gone through the motions of telling people in advance, soliciting backer feedback, all of this unpleasantness could have been avoided. Instead, it's like they were expecting to be praised for shorting people 2 models.
As for whether they protected the money or not, their story is that they failed to account for something as basic as currency fluctionation. Naturally, that's grist for criticism.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Yeah, but then, had they communicated and gone through the motions of telling people in advance, soliciting backer feedback, all of this unpleasantness could have been avoided. Instead, it's like they were expecting to be praised for shorting people 2 models.
As for whether they protected the money or not, their story is that they failed to account for something as basic as currency fluctuation. Naturally, that's grist for criticism.
maceria wrote: [..] In addition to being terrible business.
I agree, that's fair - because in their repeated behavior TPTB actually do expect praise for every decision they make and unfortunately, more often than not, there is always some folks just waiting in the wings to give it no matter how things turn out later down the road.
But the problem with KS from what I've seen on all the campaigns I've followed is that it has too many ways to get around what few strictures are in place; instead, KS seems to reinforce if not reward companies doing their same old thing once more instead of adapting/changing for the better.
The Lesson of the Holiday Roast
Mmmpi wrote: So what ever happened to the whole "if it doesn't work out, we'll make it up with metal models" that got brought up during the KS?
Ah, I had forgotten about Dave promising that before, but sounds like doing so has been amended now to only be on the table if backers want to pay almost full retail price - folks can save $3CAD per model provided they add-on a two pack of either type to get that offering.
Firebreak wrote: If the plastics company tanks, say, then the backers get all their minis from the KS in metal or resin without any added cost? Hell, that sounds fair to me. I mean, I'd prefer even bad plastic to metal, but still, that's a decent disaster scenario plan.
It would suck Armadillo Beast to have to do that but yeah, in case of Act of God, we have a backup plan that we'd prefer never to use.
It's always better to have a plan and not need it, than it is to need a plan and not have it.
I always wonder how much earthquake insurance companies operating in China have to keep...
Cheers!
Dave
DP9Dave wrote: From what I can tell about the Robotech kickstarter, since I am not a backer, is that they realized going into production that the planned level of articulation would take up a lot more space for parts in their molds than they had planned. Then it sounds like they got stuck in morass of dealing with overseas production issues. It's been bewildering trying to figure out what exactly went wrong there but a lot of money like that means that they probably had to scale up production to a much higher level than they thought they needed to at first. It sounds like they are in the process of shipping out to backers and are being given the run around by customs. It's clear that they've had a lot of unexpected problems but that happens, people get their stuff, and life goes on. 85000 comment is however a lot of comments...
How can we produce as much as we are planning in the time frame, in the quantity required?
By listening to the guidance of our plastics producer, who we have a very close relationship to now. We know we're inexperienced, so we're getting the guys with the best expertise we can on our side. They think that November 2015 for delivery of the rewards is ludicrous, they expect to be up and running much faster than that. They're used to much faster turnaround speeds than that and they are appalled at the length of time other kickstarters have taken to ship.
We used the numbers we were given by the best experts we could find and then added a healthy safety margin to be sure. Plus we started designing our 3D models only after finding the tolerances and discussing how many parts to make them in and how they would cast with the most detail. Most companies that I can see start with a raw digital model, then go to manufacturing and get laughed at for what they are trying to do and have a long process of redesign and review. We've sidestepped all that with planning, something we're getting better with all the time.
The assurance you have that we can produce?
You have the best assurance possible. You have the assurance that we still want to be in business after the rewards ship.
We know that it's no good creating these expectations and then not meeting them. But we also know that there's going to be problems. Problems happen. And we'll solve them. And what we learn from the process will make future crowd funding projects we do run smoother and better than this one. None of these models are something that we can't produce in metal or resin and even if disaster hits and the molds are destroyed by Godzilla there will be insurance and we'll be able to fix the problem by re-making the molds or in a pinch we can produce in metal or resin as a last resort. Unlike some companies who have no backup production we know that come hell or high water these models are getting made if we have to do them ourselves, again, as a last resort.
Cheers!
Dave
DP9, 5 days ago, wrote:[..] This money can't be refunded as the majority of it is being used to make the plastic injection molds and have the plastics popped for the Backer Reward Packages.
[..] Now all that being said, we can't do refunds, but we can make available special orders for the Dream Pod 9 Online Store. If there are no other Add-ons in the pledge manager that interest you as replacements to the plastic Tiger and Sidewinder sprues Add-ons which are no longer available. [..] We can do a special conversion rate of the $USD DP9 Online Store price plus 15% converted in to $CAD (instead of the 43% it is right now) for our Kickstarter Backers. So for example if you had $24 CAD available in the the pledge manager it would make $20.87 USD ($24CAD/1.15) in products from the DP9 Online Store, ... We would put a note on your pledge manager account to add the DP9 Online Store products to your Backer Reward Package when it ships and remove the amount in $CAD from your pledge manager account.
Update #110 on Jan 21, 2016 [..] We have updated the Pledge Manager, adding 3D Models with Parts Sprues and updated various images. Plus we have added a few new options to the Add-ons as well, a Rock Terrain color sheet for $2 CAD each and the Chibi Kodiak that was our 2015 DP9 Online Store Xmas gift for $30 CAD each. Plus, the option for Backers who still want Tigers and Sidewinders to get our older Pewter miniature two pack versions instead, at a special price of $20 CAD each. The normal price of these pewter miniature two packs is $17.99 USD (about $26 CAD) on the DP9 Online Store.
Update #111 on Jan 28, 2016 [..] Lastly we still have about 45 Backers with the plastic Tiger and Sidewinder models selected as Add-ons in the Pledge Manager. As our previous updated stated the plastic Tiger and Sidewinders models are no longer available and we need everyone to login to their pledge manager accounts at the link below and remove any plastic Tigers or Sidewinders and select other Add-ons in their place.
I wonder if DP9 realizes it has been over a year since the KS ended, with three months gone since delivery was supposed to happen, and a number of folks have probably forgotten or lost interest by now.
Also, ''majority'' (my bolding) does not equal all, and refunding the folks who did add-on some number of Tigers & Sidewinders yet don't want any other product(s) shouldn't eat that much into funds left in reserve to cover shipping increases or the like.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As expected, they've reported me for Trolling.
I've reported them for name calling.
ETA - there are a *LOT* more White Knights than I had expected. Oh, well...
There is also potentially the issue of what right any creator has on a KS to reveal what should probably be privileged information regarding the amount of monies pledged by a backer.
Dream Pod 9, about 15 hours ago, wrote:@ Juliet Hwang. We want to thank you for your support of the Kickstarter with your $1 pledge. And sharing your feelings and concerns, that you are so put out by the changes we made to ensure that we are able to deliver a balanced Core Starter Set to all our Amazing Backers, that pledged for one or more of them.
_
_
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/01/31 07:07:21
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2016/01/31 09:13:07
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
Firebreak wrote: I'm surprised your comments are still there, frankly. Alright looking at KS some more, it doesn't look like they can delete comments. There's some angry stuff there I imagine would be gone if it could. Unless a certain someone really HAS changed, and doesn't want to keep burying things like the old days.
Maybe grab a couple screenshots anyway, just in case. Calling upset customers "trolling" is worth being able to recall, I think.
Heh. Guess that's not it, no:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Ah, well, people rarely respond well when they're called on stuff.
Still, I can't believe that they didn't 'spend' the money that they needed to as soon as they could in order to 'protect' against currency fluctuations, especially for stuff that was going to require USD.
Yeah... that's the thing. It is pretty unbelievable. At the very least, mighty strange. One would think the manufacturer would have wanted to be paid at least in part before committimg.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smilodon_UP wrote: There is also potentially the issue of what right any creator has on a KS to reveal what should probably be privileged information regarding the amount of monies pledged by a backer.
Dream Pod 9, about 15 hours ago, wrote:@ Juliet Hwang. We want to thank you for your support of the Kickstarter with your $1 pledge. And sharing your feelings and concerns, that you are so put out by the changes we made to ensure that we are able to deliver a balanced Core Starter Set to all our Amazing Backers, that pledged for one or more of them.
It's not the first time that the Pod has threatened with that. A... year ago, maybe? Robert PMed me to threaten with "outing me" for backing $1 because I was being "tiresome", apparently, with my lack of support.
Of course, I already had said as much myself everywhere, so as threats go, that one did not have much teeth.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/31 09:37:37
2016/01/31 15:10:24
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
So, I generally expect to write off everything sent to KS. News of the model line up change was bothersome, but, eh, it's KS.
This behavior from DP9 however is beyond unacceptable. The bullying and intimidation, as well as using private information to do so, is disgusting on any level, and reprehensible from a business.
Needless to say I have reported this to KS, for sweet FA it will do.
2016/01/31 17:17:35
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
I hope when the lawsuits go through that DP9 goes under, and the IP gets auctioned to a company that doesn't threaten upset customers with lawyers. Maybe Catalyst?
2016/01/31 19:56:40
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
Glad I didn't sign up for this. Got interested in HG a few years back based on how the models looked. Ordered the pdf rules and when I visited their forum, I saw open hostility towards the players from the company.
That stopped me cold.
2016/01/31 20:32:01
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
It was in email. So yeah, keeping it. Also as advised by legal people, I'm not going to discuss this in public. Nothing personal ladies and gents if I am concise in then future.
2016/01/31 21:12:36
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
Hmm, yeah, a prime example of what can happen when everyone involved doesn't take a moment to consider before hitting the send button. I apologize on behalf of Dream Pod 9 for our side, this isn't easy for us either as you can imagine.
Considering the amount of time that Robert has put into the kickstarter since it began (120+ hours a week at least, at all hours to co-ordinate with artists and other people all over the world) it is no small thing that the only issues with fulfillment are manageable ones. And yes, losing two models is only an issue since it hasn't prevented the vast majority of the KS going forward.
Some backers have been complaining about things that could have been dealt with in other ways, and in hindsight they could have, but you deal with problems as they actually are, not as hypothetical issues, and time mocks all decisions given enough time. The currency issue was a bad one and we had always planned that it could get bad for us, just never this bad, and for so long. In the end mistakes were made and hard lessons learned, such as how we should have been buying USD earlier to guard against fluctuations. It's a perfect storm of a government that doubled down on the oil economy and international commodity trading that few people could have predicted. Lesson learned.
The thing that bothers me is that people automatically consider that we can just switch up the plastic models for metal. When you consider the cost of the materials that decision would kill the kickstarter dead, so that is not possible.
When the kickstarter was on I made the point that unlike most miniatures kick starters we actually have an in-house production facility and that if there was a disaster such as the molds falling off the transport ship and ending up a the bottom of the ocean then at the vary least we would be able to produce some kind of replacement ourselves using the insurance money. With many companies there would never be the possibility of this so advantage to us, but it doesn't help in a situation like this.
Frankly I'm amazed at how much has gone _Right_ in this kickstarter considering that it was our first, and how steep the learning curve was. Some kickstarters don't overcome these challenges and flop. We're getting our molds made and getting rewards out to the backers in a reasonable time frame. A big shout out of thanks to our backers who have stayed positive through it all, I know it's hard sometimes. Imagine being in the trenches through this making these decisions and be glad you don't have to be the one to make them.
These might not be the answers that backers and other are looking for but it's what I have to give right now.
Thanks,
-Dave
2016/01/31 23:40:47
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
Killionaire wrote: [..] Now onto the negatives. They're bad. I mean real bad.
[..] Likewise, when something cool does come out, it's not marketted right. Even fans of the game don't see anything on most gaming news sites, nothing on their frontpage, and need to instead dive into some obscure forum threads for basic information like that a new unit box came out.
It also doesn't help that the company's book editing is poor, and schedules slip a lot. And that they don't like it when called on it.
MrThud wrote: I own a HG:B army and an occasional player versus two other opponents in my area. I've stopped really playing the game for quite some time, though I do lurk on the forums and post every once in a while. There's a few reasons I've stopped buying models.
1. Lack of company support for its ruleset
This is a glaring one. For years the company provided zero rules support. Any sort of rules question was essentially being pitched into a black hole. Then, after a protracted, heated argument last year about just how poorly written the Heavy Gear rules are (prompted by a new player basically asking how good the rules are), the company announced there would be a forum specifically for answering rules questions. Weekly answers were provided, which was great. It lasted three or four weeks, then the person in charge just flat out stopped answering. No official word on why he stopped, no questions about if rules support are over are answered. This wouldn't be so much a problem if the rules were well written and edited, but they're in a state I would consider barely adequate.
How can you take a game seriously if the developers themselves don't seem to care about it themselves? You get the feeling that DP9 is operating primarily as a model-making company, with the actual game behind the models a distant second.
2. Lack of transparency
This one's closely related to the first, but any communication with the company is largely one way. They announce new releases, then will have a spurt of activity where they will answer feedback, then it reverts to the "no questions, please" mode. You get the occasional comment that they monitor the forums closely, but why don't they chime in with comments more often? It gives the appearance that the people on the forums have more invested in the game than the developers themselves. [..]
mrondeau wrote: [..] The first one is that DP9's attitude is reinforced and enabled by the fans. It's easier to ignore the people pointing out the problems when you have a group of fans telling you that your work is perfect and that all your problems are caused by the complainers. That's what we observed during LnL's playtest.
mrondeau wrote: [..] Also, what make you think that we did not start by making suggestions in private ? Let me re-put things in perspective: we reported game-killing problems and were not just ignored, we were denigrated as "complainers". During a playtest.
[..] That same attitude, from what I saw at the beginning of the playtest for FiF and what I heard of the other playtests, is still present.
Problems should be ignored, not reported. The only issue is those that report problems. DP9 still does it, you are doing it right now and here. I won't speculate as to why DP9 still think like that, even after changing part of the team. All I know is that it's still there. That's why I say "DP9": even if some of the individual are replaced, the attitude is still there.
MrThud wrote: [..] In the recent past DP9 has been unresponsive to player feedback on their current rules. That's just the view of a regular player too, let alone one who's been involved in any sort of playtesting capacity. I just have trouble seeing them do a sudden 180 and give the sort of attention to feedback that would be needed to properly test and implement a clean set of rules.
Albertorius wrote: So, it's nice to know some things just don't ever change.
Over at DP9, Robert has posted an announcement for their new pie in the sky proyect: a hopper model, the first in a new whole line of them I guess. You would see there are no replies to that post.
But there were. Two, in fact, one mine and one from Robock (...I think). I said that it was too expensive for me, and that even though I could not benefit from them (as buying from the USA/Canada right now is too expensive), the price reduction on the bundles was a good idea. Oh, and I also said that the peg was waaay too low. Robocks' was similar I think (EDIT: No, I remember now: he didn't know if he would ever want more than one because the Pod has yet to release the north book, I think). Both got deleted in a matter of minutes.
Then I posted again, asking what was so offensive about my post to have it deleted. This one got deleted too, and I got a PM from Robert, basically telling me that if I had nothing good to say about their prices I'd better say nothing. And that they didn't manufacture from China as many others, so that was why their prices are "a bit more expensive".
For starters, none of the companies I compared DP9's prices (all 15mm instead of 12, BTW) manufacture from China. All of them manufacture themselves. Also, it's not "a bit" more expensive. We're talking about twice or even 4 times as expensive here. So there.
RJVF wrote: [..] DP9 has many issues as a company, most of which can be fixed. There just does not seem to exist the will to fix them. Which disappoints me, because I like the world, I like the aesthetics and scale of the minis, and - believe it or not - I kind of like the core mechanic of Blitz. The game has a niche in the market that nobody else is really competing with in theme and scale, and should be able to grow from that. Just kind of sad they do not seem to be able or willing to do it.
warboss wrote: I imagine Smilodon will do the same thing after his cooling rods contain the reaction. edit: From the free preview table of contents on DTRPG
Actually, my first response to reading the table of contents on that DTRPG preview was to laugh myself silly for about ~five minutes or so.
Because, after getting told by Saleem that I had insulted Robert by telling him he was wrong, and why he was wrong, about many of his mandated decisions made without consultation I see that most all of the silly put into the book by Saleem that he wouldn't let anyone touch got removed by Robert anyways. [..]
Twelvecarpileup wrote: [..] I know I'm essentially saying:
"I would play Heavy Gear if it wasn't Heavy Gear".
IceRaptor wrote: [..] I'm just sad that so many people have been burned out from such a vibrant setting. The squandered opportunity is simply depressing.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I personally think this is a huge mistake... you're not going to get many players in with just the rulebook.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: [..]at least you find out if there is any real interest in your game any more (which from the sound of the thread is open to question)
[..] You'll notice in his posts or video interviews that he waxes more than a touch grandiose when talking about the company's following or exposure.
Firebreak wrote: It's not that this Kickstarter is a bad idea, it's that it's a ridiculous idea. The company is 20 years old for sake. They should be able to put out a new edition of a game nearly that old on their own dime. The only reason the Pod SHOULD have for going to Kickstarter, is to overhaul their minis. They shouldn't need to crowdfund STAFF. I love Heavy Gear, I really do. The setting is amazing, the art is amazing, and the minis are pretty cool. But holy damn, DP9, could you start acting like professionals for five minutes?
Just wanted to vent.
[..] DP9, on the other hand, has had continuous new releases, new games, new rule books, etc... On the surface, there's no reason to think that they're anything other than a healthy company, and seemingly have been that way since they killed all but one of their lines back in the '90s. But if that's the case, then why are they turning to crowd sourcing for the new rules?
ferrous wrote: [..] Especially when they already had, or had already announced Arena, and it's rules ended up being utter gak. Like completely unplayable, and it was also completely left to twist in the wind. I don't think they ever answered a single rules question about that game. (And there were loads)
I also don't mind outdated gears, and odd mixes and matches of different gears, but they never did a very good job of balancing them. It was more of a way to handicap yourself by taking the wrong gear. So terrible.
There is a beta edition out for the new edition of Heavy Gear. I haven't read the entire thing yet, but when I'm talking to Robert D. at Gencon and the most exciting thing he can talk about is that you don't have to track ammo anymore in the new edition... well, there went my high hopes.
Robert's a damn fool; thats what he mentioned? I swear every time I think that man can't screw up his company any more than he already has, he says something stupid like that. [..]
Balance wrote: [..] I have tried to make the point to the TPTB that shutting down a conversation on a forum doesn't kill the conversation, it just moves it elsewhere. Where there's no real way to respond, at least.
plastictrees wrote: Just wanted to jump in to say that as a new player who picked up $350 or so of NuCoal in the last year, I really don't see myself playing any more than the two games I've got in early this year.
The new edition just seems like a horrible quagmire, the company is giving off a ton of warning signs and, honestly, there are so many other options for gaming out there right now that I don't feel the need to send good time and money after bad.
Just thought I'd share the perspective of what was a new player.
mrondeau wrote: [..] Then, I learned how much DP9 cares about its customers.
If creating the official change log was going to take time, I suggested just posting my log as an unofficial post (what I was planning to do in the first place.)
Instead, I was told to wait. So I waited.
After 1-2 weeks, I asked about the status, and offered help. I was told to wait.
After 1-2 weeks, I asked about the status, and offered help. I was told to wait, it was going to be done soon.
After 1-2 weeks, I asked about the status, and offered help. I was told it was ready and would be posted next Friday.
I offered to look at it, to confirm that my questions were answered. No reply.
Friday come. No change logs. I ask what's going on. No Reply.
During the weekend, someone ask the question. I'm tired of waiting and not answering, so I post my original text.
I warn DP9, saying that it's obviously taking them longer than expected, and that I'm tired of waiting (probably less politely than that, I'll admit.)
Within 30-60 seconds (I checked the timestamps), my post is deleted, and I have an angry PM in my inbox, from the owner who apparently was under the mistaken impression that he was my boss.
It took a few more months for the change log. The final results was, mostly, my original text. The answers did not actually answers the questions, and in fact indicated that the author did not understand the rules.
Albertorius wrote: [..] It's not the first time that the Pod has threatened with that. A... year ago, maybe? Robert PMed me to threaten with "outing me" for backing $1 because I was being "tiresome", apparently, with my lack of support.
Of course, I already had said as much myself everywhere, so as threats go, that one did not have much teeth.
maceria wrote: [..] This behavior from DP9 however is beyond unacceptable. The bullying and intimidation, as well as using private information to do so, is disgusting on any level, and reprehensible from a business.
Needless to say I have reported this to KS, for sweet FA it will do.
maceria wrote: ...and RD just threatened me with lawyers.
n815e wrote: Glad I didn't sign up for this. Got interested in HG a few years back based on how the models looked. Ordered the pdf rules and when I visited their forum, I saw open hostility towards the players from the company.
That stopped me cold.
DP9Dave wrote: [..] The issues with the North book were regrettable but both sides could have communicated better and shown more patience. [..] I wish we could have worked this out earlier but at the time it was not possible. I wish you could have been more patient since on the whole your work was excellent.
DP9Dave wrote: Hmm, yeah, a prime example of what can happen when everyone involved doesn't take a moment to consider before hitting the send button. I apologize on behalf of Dream Pod 9 for our side, this isn't easy for us either as you can imagine. [..]
Since everyone is being so honest, the major part of the problem is that the source of most of those problems has been and continues to be on the company's side of the fence.
I.E. all of those occasions where: Folks don't like something? - then they obviously aren't true fans.
Folks aren't buying enough? - then they are too picky, and not loyal enough.
Folks are offering a solution or their own time to fix a product? - then they are being overly critical.
Folks are offering unsolicited criticisms? - then they're just trolling.
Folks are complaining behind the scenes? - then they're just too impatient and can be ignored/banned/what have you.
Folks are complaining in public? - then they should be labeled as our enemies and/or threatened with legal action..... while we keep implying our budget is continually stretched to the limit.
Folks are bringing up mistakes we keep making? - then they want us to fail.
Folks are unhappy with an unexplained and contrary executive decision? - then they just need to shut up and accept it.
Folks are right, or at least a whole lot more realistic, about something when we are obviously wrong? - then they cannot have been right in the first place, because that is a state of affairs that can never happen.
Seeing a pattern of behavior here leading to a business practice that has in turn significantly contributed to the sorry state DP9 has found itself in?
Y'all keep promising to turn over a new leaf time and again rather than repeat the past decade+ of problems; instead it seems like you are the only one at the Pod even giving that ideal lip service.
(Hopefully) enough said; because those things Robert keeps doing that you've (or another employee/fan before you) tried to explain now and in the past as just momentary lapses of judgment on his part? - they can't be easily taken back, if at all.
DP9Dave wrote: [..] Considering the amount of time that Robert has put into the kickstarter since it began (120+ hours a week at least, at all hours to co-ordinate with artists and other people all over the world) it is no small thing that the only issues with fulfillment are manageable ones.
Likewise, it probably isn't a good thing to even be appearing to try and play a card out of Palladium's deck.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/02/01 12:59:46
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2016/02/01 00:51:38
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
Alpharius wrote: 120+ hour work weeks are...insane and unsustainable.
There are only 168 hours in a week!
Yeah, I don't really understand how he's managed to keep it up plus keeping the regular company goings on. He's had to take a couple of short breaks but when it's go time we work all hours to get it done. I try to take on some of the duties as much as possible but we're a small operation and it's just a case of constant updates and interruptions that can happen at any time of day or night. I'm probably exaggerating the 120+ hours a week at just the kickstarter, it's probably 80% kickstarter and 20% DP9. Kickstarters are definitely not a way to get rich quick - we're working extra hard now on the idea that we can improve the situation around production costs for the long term sustainability of the company. All I know is that he's up working first thing in the morning and still at it late at night. This kind of work can have a brutal schedule with a lot of flurries of 3D models getting flung back and forth to Europe, Asia, and other places. Time zones are not business hours friendly.
musing/
I'm also sure that every game company producing in metal right now is looking at plastic as the only way forward. Look how GW dropped it completely and how Privateer Press is transitioning as quick as they are, with even Privateer Press starting on their own kickstarter. I would be very surprised to still see metal gaming products still available in five years time. Resin and plastic will rule the tables in the future for certain. How sustainable tabletop gaming is in the long term will probably depend on this more than anything.
/musing
-Dave
2016/02/01 01:24:40
Subject: Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
DP9Dave wrote: How sustainable tabletop gaming is in the long term
The actual gaming will be very sustainable, and even easier and cheaper for people to access. Because as soon as I can print my own spacemen at home... Well, let's not pretend there's any control over rulebooks, anymore. And that hasn't destroyed gaming, just like it didn't destroy music. But it (and ebooks) have put us at a point where if you want anyone to buy your (paper) books, you've got to be offering something at least nice, if not special.
How sustainable it will be as a business? Companies are going to have to figure that part out, and let's just add this in to be brutally honest: The first one to blame the players - for whatever - will be the first one to die and be forgotten.
Even once 3D printers are good - and currently they're just "good enough...ish" - companies with molds are still going to be able to offer a better product. And then once 3D printers match (and theoretically/eventually pass) molding, companies are going to be able to offer a somewhat better product, because they'll have artists and actual designers working for them. For a while. But when the artists start selling their own designs to people directly, that's when things are really going to change. Tabletop gaming could look very similar to the music industry, and it could all come down to who figures out the "Tabletop gaming iTunes" first.
Maybe we'll see Games Workshop go back to selling other people's stuff, like in the distant past, just in a different way.
2016/02/01 01:28:44
Subject: Re:Heavy Gear Blitz - War for Terra Nova - Kickstarter, Finished and Funded @ $150,406
DP9Dave wrote: How sustainable tabletop gaming is in the long term
The actual gaming will be very sustainable, and even easier and cheaper for people to access. Because as soon as I can print my own spacemen at home... Well, let's not pretend there's any control over rulebooks, anymore. And that hasn't destroyed gaming, just like it didn't destroy music. But it (and ebooks) have put us at a point where if you want anyone to buy your (paper) books, you've got to be offering something at least nice, if not special.
How sustainable it will be as a business? Companies are going to have to figure that part out, and let's just add this in to be brutally honest: The first one to blame the players - for whatever - will be the first one to die and be forgotten.
Even once 3D printers are good - and currently they're just "good enough...ish" - companies with molds are still going to be able to offer a better product. And then once 3D printers match (and theoretically/eventually pass) molding, companies are going to be able to offer a somewhat better product, because they'll have artists and actual designers working for them. For a while. But when the artists start selling their own designs to people directly, that's when things are really going to change. Tabletop gaming could look very similar to the music industry, and it could all come down to who figures out the "Tabletop gaming iTunes" first.
Maybe we'll see Games Workshop go back to selling other people's stuff, like in the distant past, just in a different way.
Well anyone who can predict that future first will do very well. We might even see more situations where IPs are licensed like Star Wars is to Fantasy Flight Games. Their Armada and X-Wing games have proven that pre-painted figures can sell at a significant price if the quality is there. I think we could argue that 3D printers, especially the UV laser ones, are probably already high enough quality. If I were to bet I would assume that we'll see co-ops where designers, artists, and writers get together for a crowdfunded campaign then from there on it will be a trust economy where people will support the co-ops through a patreon system or a subscription. It does make a lot of sense to cut the transport costs out of the equation if possible. Ironically this may save a lot of companies since they will no longer need to do stock management. Game stores will probably have the higher end machines and charge for the miniatures that their customers want with a set price like $1-$2 going to the company for use of the 3D master. There would be no secondary market, you would just sell your figures back to the store for a credit on your next printing and the store would toss the material back into the hopper to be ground up or melted down again. Again who knows, we were supposed to have flying cars by now too but that proved impractical.
I still have some White Dwarfs with Judge Dredd figures and other company ads in it. The weird old days of gaming indeed.
-Dave
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/01 02:19:03
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
sake. They should be able to put out a new edition of a game nearly that old on their own dime. The only reason the Pod SHOULD have for going to Kickstarter, is to overhaul their minis. They shouldn't need to crowdfund STAFF.
