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 AlexHolker wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Think the Warpath setting has potential to be more interesting than 40k too, it leans towards hard sci-fi a lot more, especially with the new background material released recently (the Deadzone:Incursion book is great and has star maps and lots of other stuff).

Warpath is a setting where rats - literal rats - are presented as being a credible military threat to the human race. So no, the Warpath has no potential to be great, because it's in the hands of people who don't understand that declaring humanity villains who fail constantly due to their own gross incompetence is a gakky keystone for a franchise.

Ratmen, not just rats, right?

 RobertsMinis wrote:
Plus I don't think Mantic cast resin in house

Pretty sure they do

 pretre wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Think the Warpath setting has potential to be more interesting than 40k too, it leans towards hard sci-fi a lot more, especially with the new background material released recently (the Deadzone:Incursion book is great and has star maps and lots of other stuff).

Warpath is a setting where rats - literal rats - are presented as being a credible military threat to the human race. So no, the Warpath has no potential to be great, because it's in the hands of people who don't understand that declaring humanity villains who fail constantly due to their own gross incompetence is a gakky keystone for a franchise.

Ratmen, not just rats, right?

Yep ratmen.

So alex what should be a keystone threat?

Spiky humans, egyptian robots, s&m elves?

Besides the Veermyn are far from shown as the big bad of the warpath setting.

And how are they just normal rats after they've mutated into rat-people?

Meh. That's what you get, Meh.

Why does humanity need a large scale threat? In Warpath, humanity IS the large scale threat. Everyone else is either consolidating their power and trying to keep humans out, or being subjugated. Even the plague in deadzone are just on some worlds here or there, the planet could be nuked from orbit if it came down to it.

Warpath isn't Red vs Blue, it's Grey vs everything else.

The army deal is a step in the right direction, I also want to see what they can do after the next kickstarter.

I was under the impression the only big threat to Humanity was the Plague. Veer-Myn, Marauders, And most of the other races are nuisances at the most, and victims at the least. Forge Fathers and Asterians pretty much keep to themselves and don't want to push Humanity's buttons. Humanity is the big bad.

SeanDrake wrote:


Yep ratmen.

So alex what should be a keystone threat?

Spiky humans, egyptian robots, s&m elves?

Besides the Veermyn are far from shown as the big bad of the warpath setting.

Mantic had roughly 20 years to not tread the same campy we-swear-they're-not-just-fantasy analogs that GW decided to go with in the era of big hair, pre-pedophile Michael Jackson, and greed is good 1980's. The rest of the industry moved onto other things for the most part but Mantic wanted to jump onto the ex-GW fan train so structured their stuff to largely follow suit. It is/was too late for GW to change their entire fluff backstory but Mantic certainly didn't have that hanging over their head when they developed Deadzone/Warpath. They chose to be campy/corny knowing that there were more creative options out there. GW was largely a trailblazer during the 1980's and their style matched the judge dredd style popular in their home country; in a way, they didn't know any better. Mantic did... but they chose otherwise for the sake of short term profit. It likely was a good financial decision for a starting company (founded by ex-GW guys, right?). GW's choices 20 years earlier aren't a valid defense versus criticism for Mantic's jumping down the same rabbit hole decades later.

 warboss wrote:
Mantic had roughly 20 years to not tread the same campy we-swear-they're-not-just-fantasy analogs that GW decided to go with in the era of big hair, pre-pedophile Michael Jackson, and greed is good 1980's. The rest of the industry moved onto other things for the most part but Mantic wanted to jump onto the ex-GW fan train so structured their stuff to largely follow suit. It is/was too late for GW to change their entire fluff backstory but Mantic certainly didn't have that hanging over their head when they developed Deadzone/Warpath. They chose to be campy/corny knowing that there were more creative options out there. GW was largely a trailblazer during the 1980's and their style matched the judge dredd style popular in their home country; in a way, they didn't know any better. Mantic did... but they chose otherwise for the sake of short term profit. It likely was a good financial decision for a starting company (founded by ex-GW guys, right?).

Sorry, but I'm really not following you here

It was in response to Sean Drake's post comparing Mantic's campiness to GW's... stuff got posted in between. I'll clarify it. If Mantic had instead chose to copy Mass Effect's background ideas and style instead of GW's, I'd have jumped on board in a heartbeat. That style of game is largely missing IMO from the marketplace with the closest I've seen being the failed Thon kickstarter (which has admittedly been released in a limited fashion since).

Yeah but in Warpath I'm not seeing where they copied any background or ideas from GW, which is why I'm not understanding your complaint at all.

Kings of War sure, to an extent, but not Warpath. I also don't see any campiness in Warpath - the campiness in the Warpath universe is restricted to Dreadball.

 NTRabbit wrote:
Yeah but in Warpath I'm not seeing where they copied any background or ideas from GW, which is why I'm not understanding your complaint at all.

Kings of War sure, to an extent, but not Warpath. I also don't see any campiness in Warpath - the campiness in the Warpath universe is restricted to Dreadball.

So warpath doesn't have space skaven, space orks, and space dwarves? That's only in Dreadball? And they don't just copy over both the visual aesthetics but also the stereotypical personality traits from WHFB into their not-even-released yet game? The orks (l'm sorry...mauraders) aren't brutal barbarians, the squats/dwarves (I mean... forgefathers) aren't quasi-steampunk engineers, and the skaven (I mean veer myn) aren't sneaky disease carriers? I'm sorry but if you don't see the similarities (and that is the most flattering way of putting it) between Warpath and WHFB then you're choosing to close your eyes.

The Marauders aren't brutal barbarians, and the Forge Fathers aren't steampunk engineers, no.

I think you're ascribing things to GW games that they neither invented nor own - the Forge Fathers are clearly inspired by practically every idea of Dwarves in history, Games Workshop not being around in the 7th century, and the Marauders are skilled professional mercenaries that bear no resemblance to any kind of Ork in the GW range except maybe a passing resemblance to Ork Freebooterz.

I'm not overly familiar with WHFB, but a quick read of what Skaven are suggests there's not a whole lot of similarity between them and Skaven beyond being rat people, also an older invention.

You're tilting at windmills here.

 NTRabbit wrote:
Yeah but in Warpath I'm not seeing where they copied any background or ideas from GW, which is why I'm not understanding your complaint at all.

Kings of War sure, to an extent, but not Warpath. I also don't see any campiness in Warpath - the campiness in the Warpath universe is restricted to Dreadball.

Are you kidding? Red Dwarfed Space Rats aren't campy? Bulgy space Zombies aren't campy? Huge mega corporations creating mercenary cyborgs and brainwashed assassin aliens aren't campy? Space Dwarfs and Space elves....? Brown coat analogs...? Campy, campy, campy.

And really, the monolithic evil human civilization is very derivative at this point.

You have an opinion, you're entitled to it. I don't share it.

 NTRabbit wrote:
The Marauders aren't brutal barbarians, and the Forge Fathers aren't steampunk engineers, no.

I think you're ascribing things to GW games that they neither invented nor own - the Forge Fathers are clearly inspired by practically every idea of Dwarves in history, Games Workshop not being around in the 7th century, and the Marauders are skilled professional mercenaries.

You're tilting at windmills here.

I never said GW "invented" it but we're talking about a company founded by an ex-GW employee. If anyone is "tilting at windmills", it's the guy claiming that Mantic wasn't heavily influenced by the aesthetic and fluff that GW has made popular as the biggest selling company in the hobby niche genre both in fantasy and scifi. You stance is about as accurate as GW claiming during the chapterhouse trial that their factions were completely original and devoid of external inspiration. Mantic clearly built up their scifi game ranges based off of the fantasy tropes that GW extended to scifi 20 years ago. For you to claim that they're not is willful ignorance. In any case, it's off topic for a "news" thread so I won't be commenting on it further. Feel free to continue to carry on blinders and all.

You're adorable with you're "I'm right and I'm ending the argument for the good of the thread" line.

You're also wrong. Passing similarities at best between 40k and Warpath - of course Warpath fiction is derived from previous fiction like every piece of fiction is, but any kind of examination clearly shows that 40k was not a primary source.

To be honest, I think you're all probably right. In my view...

Pre Dreadball, pre Deadzone, the Warpath universe very much was entirely, "what are the things people say they miss from modern day 40k. Let's make a range for them." Combined with, "lets make cheaper sci fi things for 40k players."

To be honest, how much background fluff really was there for Warpath pre Dreadball and Deadzone? Enough to fill a leaflet or three, I'd guess.

However, once Mantic started looking closely at doing Dreadball, and then later Deadzone, I think that's when they really made the conscious decision to start stepping out of GW's shadow and develop the Warpath universe more.

And, more importantly, take more inspiration from the greater Sci Fi universes.

So now, today, right now. There probably really is relatively little in Warpath that is sourced from GW now. And those parts that have, are stepping further away from the company. - EG, Deadzone Orx compared to Warpath Orx.

This is especially true when you follow the development of some things. For example, the first fluff for the Deadzone Cyphers, was essentially wraithguard (Ghost warriors etc). But, very quickly, Mantic listened to their backers and instead the fluff was modified and updated, so now you've got something more akin to Avatar but with robots.

I like to imagine a pristine ship full of Crest of the Stars style space elves with a bunch of support staff sitting around the bridge and in rows all around the stasis-pod things that the cypher pilots use.

 Compel wrote:
To be honest, I think you're all probably right. In my view...

Pre Dreadball, pre Deadzone, the Warpath universe very much was entirely, "what are the things people say they miss from modern day 40k. Let's make a range for them." Combined with, "lets make cheaper sci fi things for 40k players."

To be honest, how much background fluff really was there for Warpath pre Dreadball and Deadzone? Enough to fill a leaflet or three, I'd guess.

However, once Mantic started looking closely at doing Dreadball, and then later Deadzone, I think that's when they really made the conscious decision to start stepping out of GW's shadow and develop the Warpath universe more.

And, more importantly, take more inspiration from the greater Sci Fi universes.

So now, today, right now. There probably really is relatively little in Warpath that is sourced from GW now. And those parts that have, are stepping further away from the company. - EG, Deadzone Orx compared to Warpath Orx.

This is especially true when you follow the development of some things. For example, the first fluff for the Deadzone Cyphers, was essentially wraithguard (Ghost warriors etc). But, very quickly, Mantic listened to their backers and instead the fluff was modified and updated, so now you've got something more akin to Avatar but with robots.

Exactly my take on things.

Well said

Coming from a 40k 2nd editon space biker Squat player, I like Mantic's Forge Fathers wayyyy more, especially the newer fluff for them. The models are also waay wayy wayyyyy better... which is why I bought an army of them.

I do like Mantic's space ratmen a lot (I'm a big fan of Remy Tremblay's style) and I would not be surprised that Mantic retcons their 5 sentences of pre-existing Warpath era fluff for when they make them for Deadzone, just as they did the Marauders and Forge Fathers. Most of the Warpath "we gotta write something" filler has been written away, Veer-myn being the last holdout.

 NTRabbit wrote:
the Forge Fathers are clearly inspired by practically every idea of Dwarves in history, Games Workshop not being around in the 7th century, and the Marauders are skilled professional mercenaries that bear no resemblance to any kind of Ork in the GW range except maybe a passing resemblance to Ork Freebooterz.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:
Most of the Warpath "we gotta write something" filler has been written away, Veer-myn being the last holdout.

In that case I hope they can also write away that fething stupid name. Right down there with "Mon-keigh" for total stupidity.

Yeah, that was a doozy.

My view on Warpath

- Started off as a GW mutation

- Started to expand and grow realizing the community wanted something different

- Started to incorporate other SCIFI IP's and there own.
- A call to arms by alan dean foster
- The Expanse
- Judge dread
- Halo
- Masseffect


- Now its its own thing, and growing, it realized what it was and is expanding on it. ALL in good ways. I'm for competition, to stagnate is to die. Mantic is the only company I can see atm that has the potential to force GW to change.


I am a huge fan of the non savage brainless orcs, I am like the athestic of the dreadball orcs and wish that would carry over to actual warpath.

 Azazelx wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Most of the Warpath "we gotta write something" filler has been written away, Veer-myn being the last holdout.

In that case I hope they can also write away that fething stupid name. Right down there with "Mon-keigh" for total stupidity.

Agreed. They've had some pretty cool Dreadball race/team names, so I'm hoping that trend continues.

though, honestly, I don't see why they wouldn't call themselves rats. If the background is genetically uplifted rats, and they learned English, and the scientists called them rats, why wouldn't they call each other rats as well? And as they grew as a society, they just took ownership of it, and now like Judge Doug the human, there's Dingle McPringle the rat. I mind that much less than some sort of forced invented race name.

I remember when Mantic was building up all kinds of suspense for their "eighth race" only to unveil the Veermyn. I think I'm still surfing that wave of disappointment.


What is the new orx background from deadzone? Are they not some surprised barbarian war-loving primitives used as shock troops until they rebelled any more? It was like they were a blend of 40k orks and 5th Element Mangalores.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I remember when Mantic was building up all kinds of suspense for their "eighth race" only to unveil the Veermyn. I think I'm still surfing that wave of disappointment.


What is the new orx background from deadzone? Are they not some surprised barbarian war-loving primitives used as shock troops until they rebelled any more? It was like they were a blend of 40k orks and 5th Element Mangalores.

They way I read the DZ orx fluff, they were (and are) more sophisticated than the CPS gives them credit for. I prefer my greenskins as a professional military force rather than the drunken football hooligans that GW portrays them as being.

SeanDrake wrote:
Yep ratmen.

So alex what should be a keystone threat?

Spiky humans, egyptian robots, s&m elves?

Better those than rats and zombies. Chaos and the Necrons aren't being used to their full potential these days, but all three - the other side of the civil war, ancient servitors created for a long forgotten war, and doomed aliens who refuse to roll over and die - are fine concepts for factions that deserve to be military threats. It is insulting to treat humans as if they are on the same level as rats and zombies.

Since the last time I've made this argument we have another fine example of what I'm talking about: ISIS. These guys are merely trying to uplift themselves from an insurgency to a nation, and look at what's happening to them - they're getting the gak kicked out of them daily as the rest of the world takes turns bombing them. And these are humans - how far do you think overgrown rats are going to get when they're still trying to invent the sharpened stick while humanity is waging a war of extermination against them?

Anthropomorphic rats and zombies throw away the greatest strengths of their respective species. They can't compete on the level of humanity, they can't hide to live off our scraps, and they can't live at our mercy. All they can do is die.

It's a game...


besides that. Please take this conversation to Mantic General discussion. If you want to argue over lore and viability of species against each other, Mantic general is the perfect place for that. I'd rather not see 4 more pages of people complaining about lore in the News & Rumor section.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


What is the new orx background from deadzone? Are they not some surprised barbarian war-loving primitives used as shock troops until they rebelled any more? It was like they were a blend of 40k orks and 5th Element Mangalores.

If you've ever played mass effect the fluff is broadly similar to the Krogan now. They *were* a primitive race that were uplifted by the GCPS. They were essentially used as Enforcers are today.

They go on to say that, though the orx weren't too into peaceful or civilised progression, when it came to military history, they lapped it up. So much so, that their favourite historical figures would provide direct inspirations for how the orx units would fight. Additionally, the orx learned very early on that one of the most important things in warfare was the art of deception. So they cultivated this image of barbarous thugs where only the goblins could speak English to cause them to be underestimated. Eventually the orx gathered enough relics that they broke away knowing that they could make better pay and lives as mercenaries.

Veer-myn background is being completely re-written, I have read it.

Can't say anything about it, but I can confirm that the old fluff of mutant rats from Earth/ Corporation biological experiment gone wrong is scrapped,