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Definitely!!! KoW has an amazing set of rules, and you don't HAVE TO play Mantic's terrible TERRIBLE models (they're so bad).

"Forces of Nature" is a pretty neat one too.

Eilif wrote:
Example, I wanted to field a unit of beastmen. There' isn't an entry for beastmen, but there is one for "Abbysal Bezerkers". Voila! My beastmen are now in play!

I don't consider this a proxy. This is using the miniatures you want with the rules you want. I consider a proxy to be a temporary stand in.

That's actually a third type of proxy. Emphasis on "temporary". I've got to put together a couple of hefty conversions for my Ogre Warlord and standard (both on chariots), so in the meantime I've got an Ogre blu-taced onto an Orc Chariot, and a standard bearer who stands (again, blu-taced) on an Elven Chariot. They're fine, but they're temporary proxies in my own mind (and in my army!)

But that's still not the same as "swordsmen are really spearmen".

 Azazelx wrote:
That's actually a third type of proxy. Emphasis on "temporary". I've got to put together a couple of hefty conversions for my Ogre Warlord and standard (both on chariots), so in the meantime I've got an Ogre blu-taced onto an Orc Chariot, and a standard bearer who stands (again, blu-taced) on an Elven Chariot. They're fine, but they're temporary proxies in my own mind (and in my army!)

But that's still not the same as "swordsmen are really spearmen".

Considering I don't count permanently allocated miniatures as proxies, I'll go with "That's actually a second type of proxy". And yeah, the emphasis is definitely on temporary.

I have a hordes army made entirely of reaper bones miniatures and while I was figuring out what I was going to include, I borrowed an actual skorne titan and used it as the model it actually was. So I proxied a miniature that was the actual commercially available model

No one can state that you´ll have "a better time playing game X." as it´s factually a subjective matter.

I can easily recommend GW games for a beginner. It will cost a bit more money than some other games, and the rules will be a bit more complicated. If that´s not an issue then by all means, especially if you find the models beautiful.

The thing is, they are all proxies, to some extent at least. If I'm playing my Beastmen as KoW Orcs, the whole lot of them are proxied. I proxy Elven Wardancers for the TK Blade-Dancers... I guess the entirety of almost all of my KoW armies are proxied in a sense.

Actually, to break it down fully, the only non-proxied models in that sense across the 6 armies we have table-worthy at the moment are two units of Ogre Shooters and my wife's undead Balefire Catapult.


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 RunicFIN wrote:
No one can state that you´ll have "a better time playing game X." as it´s factually a subjective matter.
I can easily recommend GW games for a beginner. It will cost a bit more money than some other games, and the rules will be a bit more complicated. If that´s not an issue then by all means, especially if you find the models beautiful.

You're correct in terms of games being a very subjective thing. As much as I personally like GW's models even today, I could never in good conscience recommend 40k or WHFB for a beginner, due to both cost and increasingly arcane and messily layered rules from way too many scattered sources. No qualms about recommending games like Blood Bowl, Necro, Mordheim, Space Hulk, etc.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
you don't HAVE TO play Mantic's terrible TERRIBLE models (they're so bad).

Come now, the aesthetic qualities are subjective, but the casting and sculpting quality is not. I happen to like a lot of their range - not all of it, but a large proportion.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
KoW has an amazing set of rules

I agree with this, though. What I like most about KoW is the ease of proxying, because all that matters for a unit is the footprint (and consistency across a force). To illustrate this, I'm currently cobbling together my old Hordes of Chaos army using units from the Forces of the Abyss, Orcs, Kingdoms of Men and Undead lists - and thanks to the ally rules, it's perfectly usable.

I would absolutely recommend it. It's an amazing hobby, with unsurpassed depth of fluff and some of the best minis around (there are competitors for that crown, but their stuff is equally expensive). The most important thing though, is if you have anyone to play with. If you don't there's no point. You need a gaming group with a similar mindset. I have one and I couldn't be happier with 40k right now (I could be happier with GW in general, but they seem to be improving). It depends on what you value most though. For me, the fluff is so important that I could never play a game with unengaging fluff. I love the 40k universe and the models, and the rules are secondary to me. That's why I've never considered playing Warmachine, I don't like the aesthetic and I don't feel intrigued enough to learn the fluff.

If you want to start small, play Necromunda. The rules are imo better suited to the playstyle than 40k, and the game lends itself amazingly well to spontaneous narratives. Such a flavorful game, and the fluff and atmosphere really is among the more interesting in the 40k universe. You don't need many minis either.

A second here for Necromunda.

Amazing game. I play it more than 40K these days.

You don't need to use the 'official' models either (as most are really tought to find for a decent price these days).

My Goliaths are orks, with a Nob with big choppa as the gang leader.

@OP - I would recommend something simpler and cleaner.

If you love LotR and dig Fantasy and High Elves, GW's Lord of the Ring Strategy Battles Game is not a bad choice for what you want. You could get the rules, along with a couple armies for not too much money. Elves & Men, against Orks & Uruks, and you'll have a grand time for years to come. It just becomes your fantasy battle game, and you won't have to worry about what others do. Keep it in a storage tub, and break it out to play - a big game in a big box.

If you really want higher fantasy with Warhammer Fantasy, that's always a choice, but I think it's a bit more overwhelming for novices. LotR ties directly to the movies and books that people may have seen and read.

For a novice in a gaming island, LotR SBG is a stronger choice. Best of all, it's largely out of print, so you can get the stuff used or clearance at pretty good prices on eBay, especially the plastic kits. Plus, there's lots of information on what works and what makes a good army.
____

In your follow-up, you note that you have Warmachine (steampunk) and Infinity (modern skirmish).

Of your follow-up list, Flames of War (historical) would be my top pick. It's an entirely different genre, so good variety there. Flames of War Open Fire is a great starter.

I would have suggested Malifaux, except you already have skirmish and steampunk covered via Warmachine & Infinity.

I see that you're looking at the various ball games. IMO, your having Infinity largely covers that skirmish-scale stuff.

 Azazelx wrote:

You're correct in terms of games being a very subjective thing. As much as I personally like GW's models even today, I could never in good conscience recommend 40k or WHFB for a beginner, due to both cost and increasingly arcane and messily layered rules from way too many scattered sources. No qualms about recommending games like Blood Bowl, Necro, Mordheim, Space Hulk, etc.

I largely agree with this. My only disagreement is that the specialist games were killed off and harder to start because of this. Personally i think mordheim was where its at as far as skirmish warband games go.

No, stay away from GW products = money pit

Hopefully i can offer an impartial response (which btw, inquiring about GW games on this forum is going to bring out the whitest-white-knights for GW, and the most virulent haters who can't find a single solitary positive thing to say).

GW games can be very fun. They do not have the tightest ruleset on the market, meaning that there are loopholes, vague interactions, or just downright plain oddities. There's lots of reasons for this, but it can mostly boil down to this ; though the games are played "competitively" in their purest form, they are beer and pretzel games albeit in large format. Meaning you're not meant to take them super seriously. You can if that's your thing, but if you do, and then get butthurt about the fact that there's a loophole here and there, it's grousing for the sake of grousing. They even acknowledge that their ruleset isn't airtight (which none are, but GW's is further than most from being airtight) by giving the "roll off" method of resolving in game rules disputes. If you have a dispute with your opponent, and can't quickly resolve, they recommend you roll a D6, and on a 1-3 one person wins and the rule is played their way, and 4-6, the other person's.

Some people wring their hands at this, but most games have this somewhere in their rules or something like it.


If you're looking for an airtight competitive ruleset, GW games are likely not for you. If you're looking for the highest precision in internal and external balance... and will be upset if those things are not honed as much as possible, then these might not be the systems for you. If you like medium to large battle simulations with gorgeous quality models (mostly... there are exceptions... razorgore... looking at you!), and want a fun game to play with your mates to have some laughs and good times, and like very rich background and themed sci fi and / or fantasy, then you might get very good mileage.

They are very expensive. most armies, bought at MSRP will run you several hundred dollars. You can get them online cheaper, but it is what it is - even bought fully online, they are pricey games to play. If you're not sure that you will like wargames, a GW game might not be the best place to start, as to even make a 500 point list, you're probably spending a hundred bucks USD + the 80.00 rule book + the 50 dollar codex (unless you get a starter set which is about 100), whereas most other games you can get starters and starter rules for 50 bucks per person.


I have played Warmachine, Hordes, Dark Age, Infinity, Rezolution, mordheim, WHFB, 40k, and a bunch of other minis games. I really like WHFB - i've played it longer than any other game other than Warmachine which i played for many years. Both 40k and WHFB are good games for what they are ; fun medium to large army conflict games meant to have a good time with friends. What they are not is super duper air tight rulesets, or cheap. Some people feel they've been wronged by GW for either not keeping armies up to date, discontinuing certain models, etc., or a whole host of other reasons. They may or may not be right, but i suppose at the end of the day their perceptions are what count.

If you're okay with an expensive, but fun game, and you can get a couple other people in with you, then i would not try to steer you away from GW games. They are really really fun.

Keraun0s wrote:
well, now that's out of the way. I'm looking at GW site everyday, trying to find a way to play WHF without going bankrupt. I find the model range beautifull. I hear 40K get a lot of fire for the ruleset. Is Fantasy better? or the same problems about balance exist? I could still use the minis in other systems, even if I do not play Warhammer...Unlike with 40K.

I would advise you to collect whichever you prefer the models and setting of more. If its guns and tech -40k, if its mythical beasts, swords and sorcery, go with FB.

Fantasy's ruleset is superior in that -dragons and magic aside - it tries to implement the mechanics of factual medieval warfare, specifically troop formations and movements, offensive and defensive strategies. 40k, while not devoid of those elements, is currently more akin to a shoot-em up than a proper war game, with a significant factor to winning the game being in knowing what guns to bring, and what to shoot them at. It's certainly fun, but if you're looking for realistic wargaming, the rulebook will leave you shaking your head in disbelief.

Hope that's helpful!

I had a thought the other day. I'd go further than not advising a beginner to start any GW game, I think that if I lost my GW collection and the insurance company gave me the full retail for it, I still wouldn't re-buy it. I'd throw all the money into Bolt Action and never look back.

If I lost my entire GW collection, no I wouldn't re-buy it - I just don't have time to rebuild and repaint everything. I'd go with a small set of games and call it a day.

A lot of people will tell you to look at the price point of the product you are getting. I feel that is a misnomer. As I talk about the GW starting product line I will interrupt myself as many "interwebs" people's would do in a "real life" conversation. This will be edited a few times for consistency. I am a fan of GW's products, but I also play a lot of other games. So I've already done the dumb thing of spending money I regret on other systems.
GW has three starter sets from different product lines. Yes rumors say that one of these may be ending due to the end of a franchise. Let's touch base on that one first. This is the truly newest starter kit that GW has released, the detail on each of these models inside show how well GW has figured out molding and plastic manufacturing, so all the other companies out there should say thank you instead of people trying to build lousy knockoffs with printing (sorry, tangent). So at a price of a "whopping" $125 ASD (American Standard Dollar), you as a new hobbist receive 56 models, a piece of terrain, a plastic folding ruler (kinda cool), dice, an easy play sheet, a 48 page story starts here booklet (or read the actual book), and a mini copy of the 112 page actual rule book, full color.
First competitor that many people will talk about is "Warmahordes." So let's look. At a "slightly" lesser price, $99.99 ASD, you RECIEVE eonugh stuff for two people to play. 17 plastic models. 17? Yes, 17! So you're telling me that if I save $25.01, I don't have to paint 39 more models, and I don't get terrain with it either. Sorry, that was a lot of sarcasm when I should have stayed the course. Yes, only 17 models, a set of stat cards for the models, a measure, a set of dice, a introductory guide, and a "travel-sized booklet (86 pages)." That quote is from Warmahordes website. Not full color.
Warhammer 40K has a starter kit like many of these others highly detailed plastic minis, a total count of 49, a intro booklet, a measure, a set of dice, a set of game templates for various weapons, and a 208 page full color rule book. All of these can be yours for $110 ASD.
Do you see where I'm going here. You get more for your money's worth! I would finish this but I have to work to feed my plastic addiction. Hah!

Spaz431 wrote:
A lot of people will tell you to look at the price point of the product you are getting. I feel that is a misnomer. As I talk about the GW starting product line I will interrupt myself as many "interwebs" people's would do in a "real life" conversation. This will be edited a few times for consistency.
GW has three starter sets from different product lines. Yes rumors say that one of these may be ending due to the end of a franchise. Let's touch base on that one first. So at a price of a "whopping" $125 ASD (American Standard Dollar), you as a new hobbist receive 56 models, a piece of terrain, a plastic folding ruler (kinda cool), dice, an easy play sheet, a 48 page story starts here booklet (or read the actual book), and a mini copy of the 112 page actual rule book, full color.
First competitor that many people will talk about is "Warmahordes." So let's look. At a "slightly" lesser price, $99.99 ASD, you RECIEVE eonugh stuff for two people to play. 17 plastic models. 17? Yes, 17! So you're telling me that if I save $25.01, I don't have to paint 39 more models, and I don't get terrain with it either. Sorry, that was a lot of sarcasm when I should have stayed the course. Yes, only 17 models, a set of stat cards for the models, a measure, a set of dice, a introductory guide, and a "travel-sized booklet (86 pages)." That quote is from Warmahordes website. Not full color.

For about 10 USD I can get a plastic bucket full to the brim with plastic army men. Clearly plastic army men are much better than GW!

What on earth does the amount of models that you get has to do with anything if you can't even use them on a regular game?

"Congratulations on spending 125$ on your introductory set, now you just need to spend another 500$ to be able to actually play the game!" -> That is how a real life conversation on the game would go, you're welcome.

Are we not trying to a constructive community to possibly welcome e new player, viper? I interrupt myself clearly enough for 5-10 people.

Spaz431 wrote:
Are we not trying to a constructive community to possibly welcome e new player, viper? I interrupt myself clearly enough for 5-10 people.

I am trying to create a constructive community and I always welcome new players.

Of course welcoming new players, to me, means steering them away from mediocre systems that offer very little in terms of gaming enjoyment but instead seem to be designed for the sole purpose of taking as much money as they can from its player base without any regard for things like game balance, tactical play, army longevity, etc...

Lets say that my "job" is made extremely simple in the past couple of years, since the only new players that I've seen at the FLGS are playing X-Wing, FoW, Infinity, Malifaux and WMH.

I would recommend both Dark Vengence and Island of Blood as great starter sets into wargaming. The only thing missing is terrain. Some rocks or ruins printed on card can quickly solve that.

Personally yes i would recommend to start a new gw game, albeit with scarce or none GW miniatures(easier done in fantasy, thou also doable in 40k), i would simply use other ranges, bewtin mantic, perry brothers and so on, you have your pick of models for virtually any fantasy army, you can pick GW models for iconic things like may be The empire charriots or the Dark elves cauldron.

For 40k its harder but not that much depending on what you do, if you go imperial guard, there are a lot of sci fy plastic humans out there, you would only need the tanks from GW if you dont fancy scratch building them your self. The main think to keep in mind is that you respect WYSIWYG, meaning, that if a particular gun in a model represents say a lass gun, that gun can only represent a lass gun and has to be the same for your entire army.

Herzlos wrote:
I had a thought the other day. I'd go further than not advising a beginner to start any GW game, I think that if I lost my GW collection and the insurance company gave me the full retail for it, I still wouldn't re-buy it. I'd throw all the money into Bolt Action and never look back.

Oh damn, that'd be awesome! I'd totally stack it neatly in the front room, put the dogs up, and leave the door unlocked if I could make this happen! Although mine would be Infinity.

I'd sooner start someone on crystal meth than a GW game. Totally cheaper and more fulfilling!

There is no better tactical strategy game involving miniatures than 40k. Dive in head first and enjoy.

Personally, I say no, not really. The ruleset, in its current edition, is not very up to par in comparison to those on the market and requires a hefty investment of time and money with little returns in my enjoyment. This in being what might turn most potential beginners in miniature wargaming away from the scene. However, other games take the honor of being more beginner friendly (such as X-Wing and Kings of War).


This is just my personal feelings on that and what ever you pick....well, that is your prerogative. Being a little more objective on this, first, research into the game you are planning to start up then ask yourself a series of questions before getting into the game:

1. How much money are you willing to spend to start-up and then expand upon your force?

2. What are you looking to get out of the ruleset? Are you looking to play competitively or more casually? Are you looking for something in-depth or easy to get into?

3. How does your area look in terms of people playing a certain game system? This is big, since if you start up a game and no one plays it, then you have essentially sunk your money on a system no one plays. Unless you want to be prepared to buy a little more to have two playable forces in order to show the game, but this can be a slippery slope.



With this, use it to see if getting into 40k or any other system is good for you to get into.

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no better tactical strategy game involving miniatures than 40k.

Oh man.... that brought tears to my eyes. Whew, good one, Man.

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no better tactical strategy game involving miniatures than 40k. Dive in head first and enjoy.

You've missed the end of that first sentence there, "based on the two tactical strategy games I have tried; 40k and stabbing myself in the eyeball with a rusty fork"

 Pacific wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no better tactical strategy game involving miniatures than 40k. Dive in head first and enjoy.

You've missed the end of that first sentence there, "based on the two tactical strategy games I have tried; 40k and stabbing myself in the eyeball with a rusty fork"

I don't know, man.
I've tryed a lot of tactical stratgey games before and I think 40k is better than Battleship AND Mario Kart!

Verviedi wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Spoiler:

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no better tactical strategy game involving miniatures than 40k. Dive in head first and enjoy.

You've missed the end of that first sentence there, "based on the two tactical strategy games I have tried; 40k and stabbing myself in the eyeball with a rusty fork"

I don't know, man.
I've tryed a lot of tactical stratgey games before and I think 40k is better than Battleship AND Mario Kart!

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I had a thought the other day. I'd go further than not advising a beginner to start any GW game, I think that if I lost my GW collection and the insurance company gave me the full retail for it, I still wouldn't re-buy it. I'd throw all the money into Bolt Action and never look back.

Oh damn, that'd be awesome! I'd totally stack it neatly in the front room, put the dogs up, and leave the door unlocked if I could make this happen! Although mine would be Infinity.

I'd sooner start someone on crystal meth than a GW game. Totally cheaper and more fulfilling!

You might want to keep your teeth.

OTOH, convert it into a party at the Mustang Ranch, and you'll have an epic story to tell.