Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I also agree that 40k has the best looking models/armies. Infinity just looks boring to me. I haven't seen a single model that inspires me to paint it or start playing the game. Warmachine is ok, but I just picked a faction by default (split starter box, friend liked khador) because none of the factions really grabbed me. I spent a week looking through all the models for warmachine and hordes on their site and dididn't see anything that made me think "that's awesome, I HAVE to have that model/army!" Yes, 40k and WFB have some models that aren't spectacular. However, as a whole the models are extremely cool looking. When I show people who don't war game pictures of models from infinity, WMH and 40k, they think infinity looks boring, WMH is "kinda cool" and 40k is "omg that's awesome. It's kinda nerdy but those look so cool. I'll have to come over and watch a game some time". This is basically the universal response from about 15 people I've showed pictures to.

Sadly, this is the only thing 40k has going for it. As mentioned a million times on this forum and every other, the rules are absolutely atrocious. You could sit 1000 monkeys in front of keyboards and they could write a less clunky, more coherent and balanced rule set for 40k. Considering I see the hobby side of it as something I have to do to play the game rather than enjoyment in and of itself, this is a big turn off. The model quality, aesthetics and setting of 40k are top notch. If that's all you're looking for and you have more money than you know what to do with, that's the only way I would advise getting into 40k. If you're actually looking to play a game and not just assemble, paint and display pretty models, go with WMH.

Yeep you are right.. Warmachine/hordes is the superior game and I dont play 40k anymore but i get no OMFG that so cool feeling from them sadly.. And Infinity still looks a mess to me even when people try and explain why they are a mess... I whish both Privateer press and Corvus Belli could make better and cooler armies.. :(

Sadly Infinity looks as you said boring and bland and i get more exited looking at historical games (like WW2 and Napoleon wars), and this is something Corvus belli really need to look into.. Because I think alot of people feel the way we do.. And Infinity is probably a great Sci Fi game with cool rules, but the Factions are just not good enough, from an estetic design point(AKA me getting exited to paint them etc) to warrent a buy in at this point... Someone said they are fixing things and the latest releases looks much better, but it will take some time for them to redo all the old sculpts..

Warzone looks cool though, but I guess I will stick with Warmachine/hordes for the time being..

 zlayer77 wrote:
Yeep you are right.. Warmachine/hordes is the superior game and I dont play 40k anymore but i get no OMFG that so cool feeling from them sadly.. And Infinity still looks a mess to me even when people try and explain why they are a mess... I whish both Privateer press and Corvus Belli could make better and cooler armies.. :(

Sadly Infinity looks as you said boring and bland and i get more exited looking at historical games (like WW2 and Napoleon wars), and this is something Corvus belli really need to look into.. Because I think alot of people feel the way we do.. And Infinity is probably a great Sci Fi game with cool rules, but the Factions are just not good enough, from an estetic design point(AKA me getting exited to paint them etc) to warrent a buy in at this point... Someone said they are fixing things and the latest releases looks much better, but it will take some time for them to redo all the old sculpts..

Warzone looks cool though, but I guess I will stick with Warmachine/hordes for the time being..

Currently im playing Planetfall and Firestorm from Spartan Games. Honestly its awesome. Its a fleet game (firestorm) and a 10mm ground forces game with the same factions (planetfall). Its great fun.

Soon they are releasing a 28mm version to go with it. So you can have an army of 10mm dudes, have some 28mm dudes and have a matching fleet and play campaigns with your friends and so on.

May be up your alley. Honestly the most fun we have had playing a sci fi game. Pretty cheap too.

40K (and for that matter WHFB) has SOME awesome models.

It also has some fugly as all getout models.

SM armies (ie most of them) frankly leave me yawning as a whole. Not a fan of the bling-crons either, being a veteran of the older book and liking the stark look they had then. Love the DE look, and i still love my Orks..

Infinity, despite having some really nice models, is not my cup of tea aesthetically. Malifaux much the same, though i may get a few to paint.

Warmahordes varies by faction.

LOVE the Circle aesthetic, and like the over-the-top Menoth look. Rhul has a dirty industrial feel i quite like too.

Some of the other factions... not so much


Ironically the game i play most is Necromunda these days, with proxied models from several different ranges (including 40k, WM/H, Reaper... )

 jonolikespie wrote:

40KNobz11 wrote:
Infinity models may be nice but I think they are ugly as hell hahaha!! GW makes the best looking models period

I don't have enough palms or faces... someone not on a phone please post the pig that thinks its a Porche.

Im dead serious... I think infinity has decent quality stuff but I hate the look of their models, but to each their own.... GW makes better models and I even like the PP models better (even if they arnt as good of quality). I didn't like the infinity gameplay either. I do however like 40k and warmahordes haha

 zlayer77 wrote:
I would not advise anyone to start GW games. Reasons for this:

1. The game is badly designed and very outdated, Table top games have come a long way since the 80s/90s and GW has just not keept up with the times.

2. You need a lot of miniatures to start playing so a very high buy in cost.

3. GW is slowly going out of style and in a few years time I personaly belive it will be hard to find people playing it.

4. Many people who are still into GW games are Hobbiest first and gamers second.. For those of us that are the other way around, or are 50/50 mix GW just dosen't provide the level of gameplay that we require to keep us interested in the long run..

On another note I personaly think that GW miniatures and Army Concept are top of the line. An army should have coherence, when you look at it. Sadly games like Infinity(corvus Beli) have ZERO coherence everything looks exacly the same you cant tell one thing from the other, Factions are a horrible Mix of diffrent styles. Its just a mess. Malifaux is the same a horrible mess, lets throw one hundread diffrent things together and hope for the best? From a desingers standpoint they need a gakload of work, and as a painter and hobbiest they fall sadly short and lack that extra feel you need to want to start to play either game..

Now with that said the Miniatures from both Malifaux and Infinity are very well made and very well sculpted but the overall Faction design is horrible as nothing fits with one another... Warmachine/hordes from privateer press are a bit better but their armys do suffer in places from the same lack of coherence that GW armies are so good at...

same faction3 picks, and they have nothing in common, first you have these Kinda police anti riot dudes, then lets throw in a wolf, and on the second pick hey lets make them all have kilts and look like scotsman?? WTF is going on? really bad Concept if you ask me.. to many ideas stick to one and make a coherent army that looks cool, instead of mixing anything that pops into your head lolz





This is my main gripp with the Competitors of GW games they have better rules but their design is not on the same level as Warhammer.. If you go and look at a faction from Infinity nothing fits, gak the miniatures are not even painted in the same color sheems within the same Faction, I personaly think this is Mayor FLAW. and if you look at Malifaux, your crew is somwhat the same but there are so many crews and so many diffrent ideas that it just becomes one big mess...

I agree with your first points strongly the game and I would even argue the setting are way out of date, I would also argue the game scale is completely out their and looks nothing but silly when I see two gamers playing a game with massive titans taking up quarters of the entire gaming table.

However the other half of your argument I very much disagree with. First of all Infinity is a Skrimish game that focuses on your forces representing Spec ops units that are brought in for a certain mission or skirmish with an opposing enemy Special operation unit. They do not need to be uniform as they are not over all standard front line soldiers and the games scale ( which is in a scale that makes sense for using 28mm miniatures unlike "company" sized games which a separate thread should be made about) is about small scale combat not massive forces engaging each other. Spec ops units usually consist of different specialists and you see that in their squad packs.

Faction similarity from what I see tends to be fairly clear, they are all based on a more anime style look and feel and that is why I think I can see your point about their uniformity, but that is more due too the aesthetic than any form of failed art design ( which infinity by far curb stomps GW at example: No silly outdated heroic scale miniatures and have become a standard for what is a quality detailed miniature) . I do not play Infinity personally but their is no doubt that they produce some of thee best miniatures in the market today, and I find beyond doubt that you can tell the differences between the factions, it is not as obvious as 40k by measuring how oversized their shoulder pads and heads are.

Your words show exactly that you are looking at Infinity and skirmish games with the wrong concept with the "to many ideas stick to one and make a coherent army" is the example from what you have said, these games are based on skirmishes not on large scale armies. The games aesthetic gives that style and feel and were yes they could make it so that the factions have a more distinct feel that would however move away from his very anime inspired theme which is their choice too make and why I perfure more gritty north American sci fi like District 9 for example. However mixed races in a force has been done in the past and works very well in conveying a force has a large diversity which is very important for a skirmish game to give players options. It also saves from having to expand a large range of each race in a setting which is cost effective but can also make sense with the fluff of a setting as every race will have their strengths and weaknesses and an army would deploy them in such a fashion, Halo's Covenant are a great example of this.

" On another note I personaly think that GW miniatures and Army Concept are top of the line", I also disagree here, Gw's miniatures for the high majority in my view are a joke when compared to Infinity, Dark lands and many other high quality True scale miniature producers I really don't think their is no argument too this. Their army concept does keep a uniform force , however in a skirmish game would be very boring and lack luster as all the options for units would all look very , very much the same with no interesting variation to shake things up. In a skirmish game you want variation , you want diversity for each faction so that players have as many options as possible to fit their play style and tastes. That is a Skirmish game and to look at a Skirmish game you cannot think in the same scale as a large scale wargame as they do not represent that scale and style of a force.

I have no problem advising a begginer to play 40K, Gorkamorka, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, Blood Bowl, and Space Hulk.

The only GW game I won't recommend at the moment is Warhammer Fantasy, but that is because I am enamored with Kings Of War as it's replacement.

 adamsouza wrote:
The only GW game I won't recommend at the moment is Warhammer Fantasy, but that is because I am enamored with Kings Of War as it's replacement.

Ha. I switched from WFB to the 1st Ed BattleLore board game a few years back, and couldn't be happier.

I'd advise anyone wanting to get into 40K to do so in a slightly different way.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 zlayer77 wrote:

On another note I personaly think that GW miniatures and Army Concept are top of the line. An army should have coherence, when you look at it. Sadly games like Infinity(corvus Beli) have ZERO coherence everything looks exacly the same you cant tell one thing from the other, Factions are a horrible Mix of diffrent styles. Its just a mess. Malifaux is the same a horrible mess, lets throw one hundread diffrent things together and hope for the best? From a desingers standpoint they need a gakload of work, and as a painter and hobbiest they fall sadly short and lack that extra feel you need to want to start to play either game..

I somewhat disagree about Malifaux. Gremlins and Ressers are incredibly cohesive as an entire faction. Neverborn and Guild have a fair amount of unity as well (guards/western and monsters). Arcanists and Outcasts are more all over, but that's to be expected, since they are composed of random elements. But mostly it matters on a crew scale, and you'll generally be taking in-themed models which benefit better from synergy.

Malifaux has some problems with faction unity, but it's mostly to do with scale (like the plastic Gremlins being so much bigger than the metals). I've certainly never seen anything that doesn't quite fit in, but then I read the fluff before buying any figures and expect a chaotic mish-mash of characters.

 zlayer77 wrote:
same faction3 picks, and they have nothing in common, first you have these Kinda police anti riot dudes, then lets throw in a wolf, and on the second pick hey lets make them all have kilts and look like scotsman?? WTF is going on? really bad Concept if you ask me.. to many ideas stick to one and make a coherent army that looks cool, instead of mixing anything that pops into your head lolz.

I don't really get Ariadna either, but they seem to be one of the most popular factions. I think they are kind of the sci-fi faction for people who don't really like sci-fi (at least the futuristic side), every game has one, in 40k it's probably Guard. There seems to be a lot of excitement lately surrounding upcoming US marine/army type models for Ariadna. I know those are going to really appeal to certain people, like vets and military types. Whether I feel they suit the rest of the background is beside the point, for some people they are obviously the best bit.

Precisely, H.B.M.C. On that note, time for my regularly scheduled 'learn to divorce the minis and the background from the rules' hectoring.

Toofast wrote:
The model quality, aesthetics and setting of 40k are top notch. If that's all you're looking for and you have more money than you know what to do with, that's the only way I would advise getting into 40k. If you're actually looking to play a game and not just assemble, paint and display pretty models, go with WMH.

Learn to divorce the minis and the background from the rules!

Kajamo wrote:
There was a swap meet at a local hobby shop (East coast of USA, near DC). About 40% of what was for sale was 40k. Assembled (some painted) Land Raiders for $15, painted armies ranging from $75 to $500, unpainted or badly painted for a song. It was quite revealing. You could have your choice, Elves, Marines, Guard, Orks, didn't matter. The do one of these every few months, the last one had similar selections and prices.

Kajamo

I dunno if there's much revealing about that aside from some people being either too stupid or too lazy to post their unwanted stuff up on ebay.

Seems to be the same old more or less as far as i can tell. a moderate decline perhaps. but the diehards are still dieharding.

A lot of people choose not to sell stuff on eBay. I'd rather sell at flea markets than eBay, because there's no postage costs and the fees go to charity, it also lets the buyers actually see the items and there's no lost/damaged in post liability. Same with buying; I'd rather buy in person.

None of that has changed, there's just less GW stuff being bought and sold (but more historicals). That could mean that all the folk wanting to get out of GW have already done so, or that the new people coming in only want to buy new, or that the only mini's being bought are new releases. Even 3 years ago anything GW got snapped up, like the 2nd Ed starter set mini's slopped in paint. So it's as if the demand has just disappeared.

postage is cheap because minis are light and small and the buyer pays for it anyways so who cares. disputes - you should be ok unless your packaging sucks or you insist to send stuff to italy. i hate the fees but ebay is still the best place by far to buy or sell minis imo. but if you enjoy getting low balled and ripped off at the flea market, more power to you i suppose. at least you will get exposure on ebay.

even three years ago the prices you would get for badly assembled or painted stuff was still terrible, not a heck of a lot has changed.

Postage in the UK is expensive (at least $5 to send any sized box with any form of tracking), which can be a lot when the figure doesn't sell for much more. You all need to pack the crap out of it because stuff can be pretty fragile.

Sure the buyer pays, but if they are only going to pay $x for it, why settle for ($x - $commission - $postage) when you can sell it for ($x - $comission) without the hassle of having to pack it so well?

3 years ago I got more for badly painted stuff than I get now for NIB stuff.

I advise beginners to look at other games instead of 40k all the time.

At my FLGS, there were a core of us (maybe 14 people, plus me) who would spend time mentoring newbies. This would range from teaching them to play the game, to helping them choose an army, to painting advice, to questions about the fluff. This went on for about 7 years, starting before I got there, maybe in 2007.

We were all long-time players. The reason we did it was to make sure there's a diverse stable of other people to play with. While numbers would change, at one point we had over 140 regulars showing up at least once a month for games on 4 gaming tables. We had to schedule matches a couple weeks in advance to get time at the tables for any night of the week.

Then 7th edition happened. I have griped about it enough and won't go there, but most of the mentors had already been thinking 40k was becoming too expensive and the sudden release of 7th cemented those beliefs. The problem we had with mentoring newbies is that it's too damn expensive to create a single army, much less collect several. One of us is an accountant, and he put the average cost of a new competitive 3,000 point army at $2,800 when you factor in rulebooks, codexes, supplements, models, paints, supplies, transport cases, templates, cards, etc. We were seeing the accelerated release schedule as a cost multiplier that simply increased the need to purchase new models. We felt bad being the ones to get people hooked on plastic crack.

This figure is pretty high compared to the average earnings of under 30 year olds in our area. We saw 2 specific things happening that no one liked. First, kids were buying optimized netlists all the time instead of trying things and learning on their own (hello waveserpent spam). This was a way of maximizing the value of what they spent on 40k more than a WAAC approach to the game. Second, we saw that the people buying 40k were predominantly becoming college educated, white 20 somethings from upper middle class families. Not that I have anything against that particular demographic, but that was a big shift compared to the diversity we enjoyed in our group previously.

I am friends with the owner of the FLGS and still go over there to paint about once a month but it's a very different place. He got rid of a table to make room for more modelling supplies, and RC cars / model trains / scenery are outselling 40k for him right now. People still play games there, but it's never packed and there are nights during the week the store is dead. The community is not gone, but the old timers have shifted their focus to 2nd and 4th edition nights and the people who want to play 7th edition mostly come in on weekends. The last post on our Google Group we had was over a year ago.

While I miss that community, I know this is primarily an issue around economics and times change. GW has every right to set the price for their product in the market and capitalize on it. But even with the owner of the FLGS, the first thing he tells people about 40k is that it is expensive and asks how much they are looking to spend. There are kids who come in with $100 and can't afford to get the rulebook and a small set of paints + models. That's hard.

Infinity is a small scale skirmish game built around more individualistic characters instead of large units of soldiers. The idea that they should all look uniform is absurd. Infinity let's the fluff dictate the models, not visa versa like GW. Whey are there guys running around with panda bots? Take a minute to learn the fluff and you'll find out exactly why.
And Ariadne is made up of a loose coalition of factions that mostly fight themselves. They're far from unified. Again, get educated about the game then come back.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Also, someone mentioned GW didn't steal ideas, everything these days is influenced by what came before it. That's simply wrong in GWs case. GW made models for judge dredd and D&D before they made arbites and greater demons. Nothing about those are inspired by or influenced by, they are direct copies.

I'll agree that the arbitrators (and sentinel walkers for that matter) push the boundaries of copyright infringement. In fact I'm surprised they got away with it, given that companies get sued form much less blatant infringements.

To correct you though, I said I agreed that GW stole / used existing ideas and designs, but are no exceptions in that department. The truth is that themes, concepts and plots have been so extensively explored in modern sci-fi and fantasy that it is next to impossible to come up with something that is truly original.

e.g. I recently had the misfortune to view a squabble between Starcraft and 40k fans, each raging at one another that one was copied from the other. Some of them were genuinely surprised when I informed them that the concept of power armoured soldiers was not invented by either, but actually featured in Robert E. Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers, written in the 50's. And if you trace that concept back far enough to you get the origins of it :medieval knights in full plate, scattering the peasants...

It being so hard to come up with something truly original, often the best that can be aspired to is a good take on a tried and tested theme or plot (e.g. Avatar), or indeed basing something off an existing design. (Starfuries and X-Wings) The area between being influenced by something and copying it is a very grey area.

Next, someone will be telling me that Space Marines don't ride Lawmasters...

Toofast wrote:
I also agree that 40k has the best looking models/armies. Infinity just looks boring to me. I haven't seen a single model that inspires me to paint it or start playing the game. Warmachine is ok, but I just picked a faction by default (split starter box, friend liked khador) because none of the factions really grabbed me. I spent a week looking through all the models for warmachine and hordes on their site and dididn't see anything that made me think "that's awesome, I HAVE to have that model/army!" Yes, 40k and WFB have some models that aren't spectacular. However, as a whole the models are extremely cool looking. When I show people who don't war game pictures of models from infinity, WMH and 40k, they think infinity looks boring, WMH is "kinda cool" and 40k is "omg that's awesome. It's kinda nerdy but those look so cool. I'll have to come over and watch a game some time". This is basically the universal response from about 15 people I've showed pictures to.

As a counter point, Infinity looks amazing to me. Honestly, every time I hold an Infinity model in my hands, the design, aesthetic and sheer beauty of their models has inspired me, and instilled in me a sense that I genuinely want to put that extra effort into them, and give them the paint job that they deserve. They’ve earned it. With warmachine, the second I saw doom reavers and assault kommandos I was utterly sold on Khador as my faction, and the second I saw Kromac, Warpwolves and especially tharn, I was utterly sold on my Circle force.

Over here, any time I’ve introduced folks to Infinity, their thoughts echo my own, in that they are stunningly beautiful minis.

Zlayer77:

zlayer77 wrote:
On another note I personaly think that GW miniatures and Army Concept are top of the line. An army should have coherence, when you look at it. Sadly games like Infinity(corvus Beli) have ZERO coherence everything looks exacly the same you cant tell one thing from the other, Factions are a horrible Mix of diffrent styles. Its just a mess. Malifaux is the same a horrible mess, lets throw one hundread diffrent things together and hope for the best? From a desingers standpoint they need a gakload of work, and as a painter and hobbiest they fall sadly short and lack that extra feel you need to want to start to play either game.

And as a counter point, it was that stifling, homogenous and frankly boring design ethos that ultimately turned me off a lot of the stuff in 40k. Half the factions are just power armour. About 90% of the unit options to be look basically the same, backed up with what is essentially the same 44141419 3+ identical profile. Take my beloved Space Wolves from 4th ed. Blood Claws. Space Wolves with power armour, bolt pistols and swords. Grey Hunters. Space Wolves with power armour, bolt pistols and swords. Or bolters. Long Fangs. Space Wolves with power armour, and some other weapons. Space Wolves in power armour in vehicles. Occasional scout and terminator doods, but 90% of what I saw ended up just being a slightly different shade of power armour with very little to separate them out in my mind.

I like the fact that when it comes to my WMH khador, I’ve got heavy cavalry, light cavalry, power armour, heavy infantry, medium infantry light infantry, skirmishers, guerrilla regulars and guerrilla irregulars. Different stats, speeds, armour types, weapon types etc. I like that with Menoth, for example the faction ranges from the Elite plate armoured Templar knights, to the unarmoured militia spearmen, to the zealous fiery mob, to impressed native skirmishers and with the priestly units in tow. All separate, and distinct looks, but it feels like a real army to me with lots of distinct and vibrant elements. The armies of Rome, Xerxes, Darius, Richard the Lionheart, Saladin etc would not have had a homogenous look. They’d have been a patchwork of different tribes, colours, languages, appearance and weapons.

zlayer77 wrote:
same faction3 picks, and they have nothing in common, first you have these Kinda police anti riot dudes, then lets throw in a wolf, and on the second pick hey lets make them all have kilts and look like scotsman?? WTF is going on? really bad Concept if you ask me.. to many ideas stick to one and make a coherent army that looks cool, instead of mixing anything that pops into your head lolz

You’re mixing the French and the Scottish sections of Ariadna up. I can see the differences. A lot of the French units have a more paramilitary/militia vibe, for example the metros and the riot police you listed. Fits the fluff too. The Scottish have kilts, and tartan, and it’s a theme running through the whole faction.

zlayer77 wrote:
This is my main gripp with the Competitors of GW games they have better rules but their design is not on the same level as Warhammer.. If you go and look at a faction from Infinity nothing fits, gak the miniatures are not even painted in the same color sheems within the same Faction, I personaly think this is Mayor FLAW. and if you look at Malifaux, your crew is somwhat the same but there are so many crews and so many diffrent ideas that it just becomes one big mess...

Compare GW cadians to elysian drop troopers to valhallans to vostroyans to catachans to Death Korps. Same story. Only thing similar is the lasgun. I suppose its 40k though, so therefore it gets a free pass, eh?

Furthermore, Infinity is a skirmish game with these supposed “clashing” single models picked from larger formations as part of a specific mission. They’re more like an Inquisitorial Warband. If you “zoom out”, a regiment of Veteran Kazaks will be equipped and look similar amongst themselves, but will be distinct from a regiment of Scot Guards. Which makes sense. These represent the various, and distinct elements of an entire planet. Turn your eyes to one of the planets of the Imperium, and you’ll have exactly the same, with everything from arbites and sororitas to astartes to various, and differently equipped guardsmen regiments and stormtroopers and everything in between fighting alongside each other. Take a collection there, and you’ll see as many “clashing” models as anything from Corvus Belli. Look at Imperial Armour 3 for example. Tallarn regiments, stormtroopers, space marines, cadian armoured, elysian airborne, brimlock dragoon skirmishers, Krieg siege korps (never deployed) and those Sapper units. Quite clashing if you put them all up next to each other.

zlayer77 wrote:
If I swaped heads/legs/arms and weapons and mixed these miniatures and then painted them all the same I can tell you now you would not know the diffrence(unless you picked the miniature up and gave it close inspection on the board) from a distance on the table if I took the bodies from one faction and changed the heads and weapons to the other faction and painted them in their scheeme you would have hard tome knowing what is what... This is BAD on so many levels its not even funny...

Same applies to 40k. Swap the weapons and heads around from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Ultramarines, and frankly, there is very little to distinguish them at the end of the day. Its all boring, homogenous power armour. Especially when “you’ve “painted them all the same”. One might have nipples, and the other pelts, and that’s about it. But its 40k, so apparently that’s OK. Or are those minor greebles ok to justify 40k as awesome, but the little things that unify infinity factions along the same lines won’t count because of arbitrary reasons?

Heck, I’ve swapped guardsmen torsos and shoulder pads with my tau bits and no one has ever noticed.

Swastakowey wrote:
A new player would not be able to tell who belongs where if you mixed them up. But in 40k its clear cut who is who and what belongs where most of the time. There are clear designs for each army that both are cohesive and different to the other factions.

Marines all look the same to me. Especially successor chapters. Your “red marines” are Space Wolves? Yeah, ok… I was able to tell apart the distinct faction “looks” in Infinity from the word go.

Swastakowey wrote:
Of course there are exceptions in all cases, but generally you could mix any infinity models together and nobody would bat an eye unless they actually knew about the game.

Same is true for 40k. All those marines look the same to me.

Swastakowey wrote:
I play a lot of history games. Notice how in the second world war, all the forces had different silhouettes? This ranges from the uniform and more importantly the helmet. Ideally gear is usually standardized but in practice it gets messy.

But ultimately you can tell on the table top who is who unpainted or not. Even tanks have unique flavours or looks that you can easily tell after a while which tank belongs where.

Anyone looking at an Indian soldier fighting the Japanese will be able to tell the difference between the 2. Even if they didnt know anything about the conflict. Even if the models are unpainted.

Anybody looking at the Polish defending against a german attack, will see the difference in uniform and know who is fighting who. Even if the models are unpainted.

Nope. You say it yourself: your perception is informed and skewed by the fact that you “play a lot of history games”. You’re familiar with it. Of course you can tell the difference between a german and a brit. Or a Russian and a Pole. Can "anyone"? No, I doubt it. I certainly couldn’t. and certainly not from 4 feet away. Its all just dudes with rifles to me. Tanks are tanks, frankly. Its not as “obvious” as you claim, or would like it to be, im afraid.

And to be fair, if you can tell apart a german from a brit because of a “distinct” helmet, I find it hard to believe you can’t tell apart a Shang Ji from a Teutonic Knight, or a Veteran kazak despite them having har more distinctive “silhouettes”.

Swastakowey wrote:
The list goes on. A lot of infinity models dont even have head gear or standard uniforms. Who is in charge? Who is regulating these soldiers? Whats the standard gun?

I feel sorry for the poor guy in charge of logistics for infinity, thats a lot of ammo, clothing and gear that needs to be drawn from different sources and shipped for resupply.

You mean the reverse sickle mag rifles of Pan-O? the Bullpup shotguns and assault rifles of Yu-Jing? The AK-47ish feel of most Ariadna and Haqq forces? Beyond that, a lot of the uniforms are pretty standard for the “line” forces. Within Ariadna, Look at the American Minuteman, Russian Tankhunter and the French Moblot. Bar the flared trousers on the Minuteman, and a lack of a balaclava, the fatigues and bulletproofs are very similar. Even the Veteran Kazak and Caledonian Mormaer Heavy infantry models follow broadly similar aesthetics (similar to that of, say, Death co, assault marines, honour guard and sanguinary guard as “elite” power armour units). I would further argue that though different, they’re no different than, say kasrkin/stormtroopers and regular cadians. Paint them the same scheme and a lot of them can stand in for each other for a more unifying palate. My Moblots frequently stand in for Minutemen, because they’re essentially the same guys, with the same guns, wearing very similar equipment, minor aesthetics (flares) aside. The paramilitary, irregular (dog soldiers etc) and militia elements (Caledonian volunteer, Metros) are of course looking non standard, but that is how things work in the real world as well. Police look different to regular army, and the elite forces carry themselves in an altogether different manner.

Swastakowey wrote:
In my opinion its not the same problem as historic games. Historic games have standardization. Infinity has whatever the designer felt like on the model. With little regard to all the others. Its very much an anime style/GI Joe style (although from limited knowledge even the bad guys have standard uniforms).

Each of the sub factions has a distinct “look”, but a lot of the sub factions also share similar traits across the “main” factions-often armour plates, weapon types etc. I’ve given the example of the bulletproofs above across the French, American and Russian medium infantry as one. The weapons, likewise are quite standardised.

Swastakowey wrote:
Anyway, as someone said, its all subjective. If you like rag tag forces then thats fine. But I know my buddies rather a unified force, either historic of fantasy or 40k.

It’s a lot less rag tag than you make it out to be though.

Swastakowey wrote:
Maybe you are right and im not familiar with them, but even people who didnt know what D-Day was can tell the difference between my Japanese and Russians.

Can they? This very much falls into the “but I’m familiar with them, so therefore its obvious; how could it not be?!” fallacy.

Yu-Jing power armour is distinct from Pan-O and Nomad Power armour. The japs and scots look very different from each other. A guy wearing a Kilt would look very out of place in a force of Power armoured wearing Pan-O Knights, or a Japanese Sectorial force for example. Etcetera.

Swastakowey wrote:
Tau and a guardsmen look very different. But whats more is their tanks look very different BUT also fit the theme of the faction. You have auxiliaries in the tau that are the exception, but largely they all look like a force unpainted or painted. But put a human tank in a tau force and it stand out big time. Clear simple differences that anybody can pick up on. Put a Guardsmen in a Tau squad and it will look out of place. Even 2 similar armies such as eldar and dark eldar cant be mixed as whilst they are similar, they have very different designs that make them noticeably different from each other. even at a glance.

Infinity, the random panda bots and servo bots, you could swap out the lady between the two and it wont make a difference. Neither will stand out among the vast differences that are already present. Nor could one tell it belongs on the other team. I wouldnt know if you took swapped out the pandas and the servo bots either. There is no clear design to show who is fighting for who. I dont even know who is on whos team when I see them unless the players have painted their bases differently etc. This is bad.

A marine with Space Wolf bits in a Vanilla force wouldn’t stand out to me either. And how about all the different guardsmen ranges? How do you justify the sheer maddening differences between vostroyans, death korps, cadians, elysians, tallarn, mordians, steel legion, catachans etc when all they have that is similar is a lasgun and an aquilla?

Swastakowey wrote:
If the above all had the same bases and are in the middle of a skirmish fight, could you tell who the teams are at a glance? I couldnt. In fact even with the bases im not sure whats going on there.

I can, quite easily.

Swastakowey wrote:
See below for a game with clear faction design differences BUT ALSO the same bases.

A new player will in seconds tell the difference. The same cannot be Said to infinity. A big reason why people here dont buy the models and play the game.

I don’t buy it. Marine vs Marine mirror matches look very samey and boring too. And they make up a huge proportion of what graces the table top.

Deadnight wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I also agree that 40k has the best looking models/armies. Infinity just looks boring to me. I haven't seen a single model that inspires me to paint it or start playing the game. Warmachine is ok, but I just picked a faction by default (split starter box, friend liked khador) because none of the factions really grabbed me. I spent a week looking through all the models for warmachine and hordes on their site and dididn't see anything that made me think "that's awesome, I HAVE to have that model/army!" Yes, 40k and WFB have some models that aren't spectacular. However, as a whole the models are extremely cool looking. When I show people who don't war game pictures of models from infinity, WMH and 40k, they think infinity looks boring, WMH is "kinda cool" and 40k is "omg that's awesome. It's kinda nerdy but those look so cool. I'll have to come over and watch a game some time". This is basically the universal response from about 15 people I've showed pictures to.

As a counter point, Infinity looks amazing to me. Honestly, every time I hold an Infinity model in my hands, the design, aesthetic and sheer beauty of their models has inspired me, and instilled in me a sense that I genuinely want to put that extra effort into them, and give them the paint job that they deserve. They’ve earned it. With warmachine, the second I saw doom reavers and assault kommandos I was utterly sold on Khador as my faction, and the second I saw Kromac, Warpwolves and especially tharn, I was utterly sold on my Circle force.

Over here, any time I’ve introduced folks to Infinity, their thoughts echo my own, in that they are stunningly beautiful minis.

Zlayer77:

zlayer77 wrote:
On another note I personaly think that GW miniatures and Army Concept are top of the line. An army should have coherence, when you look at it. Sadly games like Infinity(corvus Beli) have ZERO coherence everything looks exacly the same you cant tell one thing from the other, Factions are a horrible Mix of diffrent styles. Its just a mess. Malifaux is the same a horrible mess, lets throw one hundread diffrent things together and hope for the best? From a desingers standpoint they need a gakload of work, and as a painter and hobbiest they fall sadly short and lack that extra feel you need to want to start to play either game.

And as a counter point, it was that stifling, homogenous and frankly boring design ethos that ultimately turned me off a lot of the stuff in 40k. Half the factions are just power armour. About 90% of the unit options to be look basically the same, backed up with what is essentially the same 44141419 3+ identical profile. Take my beloved Space Wolves from 4th ed. Blood Claws. Space Wolves with power armour, bolt pistols and swords. Grey Hunters. Space Wolves with power armour, bolt pistols and swords. Or bolters. Long Fangs. Space Wolves with power armour, and some other weapons. Space Wolves in power armour in vehicles. Occasional scout and terminator doods, but 90% of what I saw ended up just being a slightly different shade of power armour with very little to separate them out in my mind.

I like the fact that when it comes to my WMH khador, I’ve got heavy cavalry, light cavalry, power armour, heavy infantry, medium infantry light infantry, skirmishers, guerrilla regulars and guerrilla irregulars. Different stats, speeds, armour types, weapon types etc. I like that with Menoth, for example the faction ranges from the Elite plate armoured Templar knights, to the unarmoured militia spearmen, to the zealous fiery mob, to impressed native skirmishers and with the priestly units in tow. All separate, and distinct looks, but it feels like a real army to me with lots of distinct and vibrant elements. The armies of Rome, Xerxes, Darius, Richard the Lionheart, Saladin etc would not have had a homogenous look. They’d have been a patchwork of different tribes, colours, languages, appearance and weapons.

zlayer77 wrote:
same faction3 picks, and they have nothing in common, first you have these Kinda police anti riot dudes, then lets throw in a wolf, and on the second pick hey lets make them all have kilts and look like scotsman?? WTF is going on? really bad Concept if you ask me.. to many ideas stick to one and make a coherent army that looks cool, instead of mixing anything that pops into your head lolz

You’re mixing the French and the Scottish sections of Ariadna up. I can see the differences. A lot of the French units have a more paramilitary/militia vibe, for example the metros and the riot police you listed. Fits the fluff too. The Scottish have kilts, and tartan, and it’s a theme running through the whole faction.

zlayer77 wrote:
This is my main gripp with the Competitors of GW games they have better rules but their design is not on the same level as Warhammer.. If you go and look at a faction from Infinity nothing fits, gak the miniatures are not even painted in the same color sheems within the same Faction, I personaly think this is Mayor FLAW. and if you look at Malifaux, your crew is somwhat the same but there are so many crews and so many diffrent ideas that it just becomes one big mess...

Compare GW cadians to elysian drop troopers to valhallans to vostroyans to catachans to Death Korps. Same story. Only thing similar is the lasgun. I suppose its 40k though, so therefore it gets a free pass, eh?

Furthermore, Infinity is a skirmish game with these supposed “clashing” single models picked from larger formations as part of a specific mission. They’re more like an Inquisitorial Warband. If you “zoom out”, a regiment of Veteran Kazaks will be equipped and look similar amongst themselves, but will be distinct from a regiment of Scot Guards. Which makes sense. These represent the various, and distinct elements of an entire planet. Turn your eyes to one of the planets of the Imperium, and you’ll have exactly the same, with everything from arbites and sororitas to astartes to various, and differently equipped guardsmen regiments and stormtroopers and everything in between fighting alongside each other. Take a collection there, and you’ll see as many “clashing” models as anything from Corvus Belli. Look at Imperial Armour 3 for example. Tallarn regiments, stormtroopers, space marines, cadian armoured, elysian airborne, brimlock dragoon skirmishers, Krieg siege korps (never deployed) and those Sapper units. Quite clashing if you put them all up next to each other.

zlayer77 wrote:
If I swaped heads/legs/arms and weapons and mixed these miniatures and then painted them all the same I can tell you now you would not know the diffrence(unless you picked the miniature up and gave it close inspection on the board) from a distance on the table if I took the bodies from one faction and changed the heads and weapons to the other faction and painted them in their scheeme you would have hard tome knowing what is what... This is BAD on so many levels its not even funny...

Same applies to 40k. Swap the weapons and heads around from Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Ultramarines, and frankly, there is very little to distinguish them at the end of the day. Its all boring, homogenous power armour. Especially when “you’ve “painted them all the same”. One might have nipples, and the other pelts, and that’s about it. But its 40k, so apparently that’s OK. Or are those minor greebles ok to justify 40k as awesome, but the little things that unify infinity factions along the same lines won’t count because of arbitrary reasons?

Heck, I’ve swapped guardsmen torsos and shoulder pads with my tau bits and no one has ever noticed.

Swastakowey wrote:
A new player would not be able to tell who belongs where if you mixed them up. But in 40k its clear cut who is who and what belongs where most of the time. There are clear designs for each army that both are cohesive and different to the other factions.

Marines all look the same to me. Especially successor chapters. Your “red marines” are Space Wolves? Yeah, ok… I was able to tell apart the distinct faction “looks” in Infinity from the word go.

Of course there are exceptions in all cases, but generally you could mix any infinity models together and nobody would bat an eye unless they actually knew about the game.

Same is true for 40k. All those marines look the same to me.

Swastakowey wrote:
I play a lot of history games. Notice how in the second world war, all the forces had different silhouettes? This ranges from the uniform and more importantly the helmet. Ideally gear is usually standardized but in practice it gets messy.

But ultimately you can tell on the table top who is who unpainted or not. Even tanks have unique flavours or looks that you can easily tell after a while which tank belongs where.

Anyone looking at an Indian soldier fighting the Japanese will be able to tell the difference between the 2. Even if they didnt know anything about the conflict. Even if the models are unpainted.

Anybody looking at the Polish defending against a german attack, will see the difference in uniform and know who is fighting who. Even if the models are unpainted.

Nope. You say it yourself: your perception is informed and skewed by the fact that you “play a lot of history games”. You’re familiar with it. Of course you can tell the difference between a german and a brit. Or a Russian and a Pole. I certainly couldn’t. and certainly not from 4 feet away. Its all just dudes with rifles to me. Tanks are tanks, frankly. Its not as “obvious” as you claim, or would like it to be, im afraid.

And to be fair, if you can tell apart a german from a brit because of a “distinct” helmet, I find it hard to believe you can’t tell apart a Shang Ji from a Teutonic Knight, or a Veteran kazak despite them having har more distinctive “silhouettes”.

Swastakowey wrote:
The list goes on. A lot of infinity models dont even have head gear or standard uniforms. Who is in charge? Who is regulating these soldiers? Whats the standard gun?

I feel sorry for the poor guy in charge of logistics for infinity, thats a lot of ammo, clothing and gear that needs to be drawn from different sources and shipped for resupply.

You mean the reverse sickle mag rifles of Pan-O? the Bullpup shotguns and assault rifles of Yu-Jing? The AK-47ish feel of most Ariadna and Haqq forces? Beyond that, a lot of the uniforms are pretty standard for the “line” forces. Within Ariadna, Look at the American Minuteman, Russian Tankhunter and the French Moblot. Bar the flared trousers on the Minuteman, and a lack of a balaclava, the fatigues and bulletproofs are very similar. Even the Veteran Kazak and Caledonian Mormaer Heavy infantry models follow broadly similar aesthetics (similar to that of, say, Death co, assault marines, honour guard and sanguinary guard as “elite” power armour units). I would further argue that though different, they’re no different than, say kasrkin/stormtroopers and regular cadians. Paint them the same scheme and a lot of them can stand in for each other for a more unifying palate. My Moblots frequently stand in for Minutemen, because they’re essentially the same guys, with the same guns, wearing very similar equipment, minor aesthetics (flares) aside. The paramilitary, irregular (dog soldiers etc) and militia elements (Caledonian volunteer, Metros) are of course looking non standard, but that is how things work in the real world as well. Police look different to regular army, and the elite forces carry themselves in an altogether different manner.

Swastakowey wrote:
In my opinion its not the same problem as historic games. Historic games have standardization. Infinity has whatever the designer felt like on the model. With little regard to all the others. Its very much an anime style/GI Joe style (although from limited knowledge even the bad guys have standard uniforms).

Each of the sub factions has a distinct “look”, but a lot of the sub factions also share similar traits across the “main” factions-often armour plates, weapon types etc. I’ve given the example of the bulletproofs above across the French, American and Russian medium infantry as one. The weapons, likewise are quite standardised.

Swastakowey wrote:
Anyway, as someone said, its all subjective. If you like rag tag forces then thats fine. But I know my buddies rather a unified force, either historic of fantasy or 40k.

It’s a lot less rag tag than you make it out to be though.

Swastakowey wrote:
Maybe you are right and im not familiar with them, but even people who didnt know what D-Day was can tell the difference between my Japanese and Russians.

Can they? This very much falls into the “but I’m familiar with them, so therefore its obvious; how could it not be?!” fallacy.

Yu-Jing power armour is distinct from Pan-O and Nomad Power armour. The japs and scots look very different from each other. A guy wearing a Kilt would look very out of place in a force of Power armoured wearing Pan-O Knights, or a Japanese Sectorial force for example. Etcetera.

Swastakowey wrote:
Tau and a guardsmen look very different. But whats more is their tanks look very different BUT also fit the theme of the faction. You have auxiliaries in the tau that are the exception, but largely they all look like a force unpainted or painted. But put a human tank in a tau force and it stand out big time. Clear simple differences that anybody can pick up on. Put a Guardsmen in a Tau squad and it will look out of place. Even 2 similar armies such as eldar and dark eldar cant be mixed as whilst they are similar, they have very different designs that make them noticeably different from each other. even at a glance.

Infinity, the random panda bots and servo bots, you could swap out the lady between the two and it wont make a difference. Neither will stand out among the vast differences that are already present. Nor could one tell it belongs on the other team. I wouldnt know if you took swapped out the pandas and the servo bots either. There is no clear design to show who is fighting for who. I dont even know who is on whos team when I see them unless the players have painted their bases differently etc. This is bad.

A marine with Space Wolf bits in a Vanilla force wouldn’t stand out to me either. And how about all the different guardsmen ranges? How do you justify the sheer maddening differences between vostroyans, death korps, cadians, elysians, tallarn, mordians, steel legion, catachans etc when all they have that is similar is a lasgun and an aquilla?

Swastakowey wrote:
If the above all had the same bases and are in the middle of a skirmish fight, could you tell who the teams are at a glance? I couldnt. In fact even with the bases im not sure whats going on there.

I can, quite easily.

Swastakowey wrote:
See below for a game with clear faction design differences BUT ALSO the same bases.

A new player will in seconds tell the difference. The same cannot be Said to infinity. A big reason why people here dont buy the models and play the game.

I don’t buy it. Marine vs Marine mirror matches look very samey and boring too. And they make up a huge proportion of what graces the table top.

All of this above pretty much puts this area of the topic at rest, for it is the honest truth, 40k is a very bland setting and their miniature range is fairly bland not what the GW fan boys make it out to be. Thank you for your post it deserves as many Exalts as possible.

So I think this thread can get back to the main topic now , I would never recommend 40k , fantasy and the majority of GW products too anyone, Epic 40k was a dam fine game back when I played it , if you go that root I defiantly recommend looking for alternative miniatures to use as even the ones you can find out their for it are way over priced.

Bloody cracking post their Deadnight, pretty much exactly what I would have liked to say.

It will be interesting to see how the landscape changes over the next ten years, and if Infinity continues to grow how there will be more knowledge of the setting and miniature ranges. I think a lot of wargamers who have come into it through GW games are comfortable with the setting because they have playing games, reading black library novels etc. for so long. It's not a luxury that a lot of other game universes, such as Infinity, have been able to benefit from. Although that will change in time, and we will eventually see less and less of the posts such as that written by zlayer77.

40k will always be my first love and I will probably play it until my future wife forces me to stop. With that said, unless you are willing to literally scour the internet for absurdly good deals on armies and the such, I would never recommend anyone picking it up from square one. Its entirely too cost prohibitive. I love the models (yes Imperials are pretty samey, but I truly find the other factions beautiful in their own ways) and the lore is great fun to read.

With that said I just recently started playing infinity and would absolutely recommend that to a newcomer both for its cost effectiveness and ruleset. The models dont tweak my sci-fi nerve as much, but they are still very good looking and are more... realistic i guess?

Aesthetics are something we cant/shouldnt argue here, because its personal. What we can make valid point on are -Cost (initial and long term) and -Rules as these are the only things that have no real opinion attached to them. 40k misses the mark on both those fronts. This aint '95 when i first picked up the game, there are MANY other options now and most of them are just plain better.

As an aside- Mordheim is still one of my favorite games... had an absolute blast with it the short time I got to play.

To the OP directly.

Space Hulk.

What faction does this model belong to? I'm soo confused!



No other game we've talked about has models that are mostly interchangeable with almost half of the "factions" in the game. You just paint them a different color and they belong to another faction.

That's a 40K Space Marine from the Black Templar chapter.

Actually that's a sergeant. Could be from any of the chapters. Black Temps usually all run around with tabards like those, hence the first guess.

Point proven... It's a Librarian. Guess the design is too shallow to be able to tell without paint.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Point proven... It's a Librarian. Guess the design is too shallow to be able to tell without paint.

That's because you put it together from bits that were never meant to make a librarian. I'd have no trouble telling a metal (or recent plastic) librarian from other marines.

Arguing that all SM chapters are alike is like arguing that PanOceania and all its sectorials look too similar - it'd be odd if they didn't. They're subfactions of a larger faction called space marines, after all.

Cambonimachine wrote:
40k will always be my first love and I will probably play it until my future wife forces me to stop. With that said, unless you are willing to literally scour the internet for absurdly good deals on armies and the such, I would never recommend anyone picking it up from square one. Its entirely too cost prohibitive. I love the models (yes Imperials are pretty samey, but I truly find the other factions beautiful in their own ways) and the lore is great fun to read.

With that said I just recently started playing infinity and would absolutely recommend that to a newcomer both for its cost effectiveness and ruleset. The models dont tweak my sci-fi nerve as much, but they are still very good looking and are more... realistic i guess?

Aesthetics are something we cant/shouldnt argue here, because its personal. What we can make valid point on are -Cost (initial and long term) and -Rules as these are the only things that have no real opinion attached to them. 40k misses the mark on both those fronts. This aint '95 when i first picked up the game, there are MANY other options now and most of them are just plain better.

As an aside- Mordheim is still one of my favorite games... had an absolute blast with it the short time I got to play.

Another great post that deserves repeating!