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 Sidstyler wrote:
Are the rules actually in the box? It says on the product pages the rules are in White Dwarf 40.

Also, technically your Tyranid codex was outdated the day 7th edition came out. The only ones I would consider "up to date" are the ones that have dropped since, especially since they changed the format again and started adding formations and LoW's that the 6th edition books don't have.

Uhm what about the Dark Elder 7th edition codex? There is no LoW in there. So I guess technically the Nid codex is not so outdated after all.

hobojebus wrote:
This kind of thing is why people just Pirate the codex in the first place.

People pirate because they don't want pay. Even back in 4th and espically 5th, there was so many pirated copies of Rules and Codicies and they were half the price. So I don't think price has anything to do with it. People will pirate no matter what. GW can be selling rules and codicies for a buck and people will still pirate.

Sir Arun wrote: GW has taken to releasing new models (gasp!) with rules that come pre-packed in the respective boxes

Neat!

Sir Arun wrote:When a codex releases, and your army gets updated, and then 6 months down the line suddenly two new units are released with the rules in the boxes for your army....where does that put your nice and shiny new hardback codex you just paid 30 pounds for?

Well, two things. Firstly, what you're describing is already sort of true now with dataslates and formations. In a way, it's applying a principle more consistently across their product range. Secondly, there has already been a strong movement towards splitting up rules and fluff, not only in the main rules which has already achieved this, but also in the codices. Many of those supplements, for example, are already mostly just pictures and fluff with a tiny bit of rules in them. It's not too much of a stretch to take that one page of rules out altogether and make it separate.

Of course, whether they SHOULD do it this way or not is another matter. On the one hand, it does give a TON more flexibility, and 40k more or less lives on its ability to not get stale due to changing over time. On the other, yes, it is a further reduction of the codex system as we once knew it. I guess that slope really is that slippery if allies -> rules in box.

I suppose the thing to give you consolation is that all of that new content is always voluntary. You don't have to use allies if you don't want to, and you can always just stick to using units in your printed codex as well. In a way, there's nothing new here relative to the last five years of dialogue about forgeworld. Just another way where the main line is trying to copy the subsidiary.

Davor wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Are the rules actually in the box? It says on the product pages the rules are in White Dwarf 40.

Also, technically your Tyranid codex was outdated the day 7th edition came out. The only ones I would consider "up to date" are the ones that have dropped since, especially since they changed the format again and started adding formations and LoW's that the 6th edition books don't have.

Uhm what about the Dark Elder 7th edition codex? There is no LoW in there. So I guess technically the Nid codex is not so outdated after all.

Uhm, it does have formations, though, and a casual flip through the book would confirm that it matches the new format that they've been using for 7th edition books regardless. Lacking a LoW option doesn't really mean anything, other than the fact that it's obviously a 7th edition codex that's missing a LoW choice for some inexplicable reason. I supposed there's the possibility that the book might not even be finished...it wouldn't be the first time GW rushed out a Dark Eldar book and "forgot" some things, after all.

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
This kind of thing is why people just Pirate the codex in the first place.

People pirate because they don't want pay. Even back in 4th and espically 5th, there was so many pirated copies of Rules and Codicies and they were half the price. So I don't think price has anything to do with it. People will pirate no matter what. GW can be selling rules and codicies for a buck and people will still pirate.

pirating has actually gone down now because you'll only find them in epub and mibo format instead of the traditional pdf scans.

and the new formats are an eyesore to read

The addition of what is basically "DLC" bothers me as well. It just feels tacked on and incoherent with the codices. What's the point of shelling out for a codex to join the hobby if it doesn't even cover your whole army? I much prefer to have consistency and coherence instead of unneeded add ons. The fluff for a new character or unit isn't as fulfilling when it feels like it says "Hey, here's this new guy you can field! He's not important or relevant enough to make the main codex like everyone else but here he is anyway! "

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Don't know about you but I don't want to buy an iFad so I can have the digital version of GW's codexes. And the entire point of digital stuff is you don't print them... You have all your books on a tablet or laptop and use that in games.

Nor do I want to pay a fortune for an electronic version of a paper product...

Most of GW's digital releases are not just available in the silly iFormat. They're also sold as ePubs, at a lower price that the hardcopy book.

 insaniak wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Don't know about you but I don't want to buy an iFad so I can have the digital version of GW's codexes. And the entire point of digital stuff is you don't print them... You have all your books on a tablet or laptop and use that in games.

Nor do I want to pay a fortune for an electronic version of a paper product...

Most of GW's digital releases are not just available in the silly iFormat. They're also sold as ePubs, at a lower price that the hardcopy book.

Not buying anything from GW any more, it has been a while since I last looked at their products. Companies producing games with much better, free rules and models which look many times better than GW's get all my gaming money these days

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Don't know about you but I don't want to buy an iFad so I can have the digital version of GW's codexes. And the entire point of digital stuff is you don't print them... You have all your books on a tablet or laptop and use that in games.

Nor do I want to pay a fortune for an electronic version of a paper product...

Most of GW's digital releases are not just available in the silly iFormat. They're also sold as ePubs, at a lower price that the hardcopy book.

Not buying anything from GW any more, it has been a while since I last looked at their products. Companies producing games with much better, free rules and models which look many times better than GW's get all my gaming money these days

Yeah I hear that often.

But I still haven't seen miniatures that look many times better, would you mind sharing some pictures ?

On the other hand, I don't play the ugly IoM so there's that.

morgoth wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Don't know about you but I don't want to buy an iFad so I can have the digital version of GW's codexes. And the entire point of digital stuff is you don't print them... You have all your books on a tablet or laptop and use that in games.

Nor do I want to pay a fortune for an electronic version of a paper product...

Most of GW's digital releases are not just available in the silly iFormat. They're also sold as ePubs, at a lower price that the hardcopy book.

Not buying anything from GW any more, it has been a while since I last looked at their products. Companies producing games with much better, free rules and models which look many times better than GW's get all my gaming money these days

Yeah I hear that often.

But I still haven't seen miniatures that look many times better, would you mind sharing some pictures ?

On the other hand, I don't play the ugly IoM so there's that.

Miniatures that "look better" is subjective, while I agree with you and prefer GWS Xenos miniatures to anything else on the market does not mean everyone else does. opinion =/= fact.

Well, I think y'all know I'm no fan of GW, but you have to give credit where it's due. With something like this you have a few options;
*Wait for the new codex; bad idea if the faction is underpowered
*Release a supplement; another $50 cash grab
*Release in WD; what they used to do. A tiny cash grab and can make rules go OOP quickly
*Release for "free" in box

Out of all of them I'd be happy with the latter. It would be nice to have a free download option on the site too, but I'm guessing that's too much to ask for from this lot.

I have a feeling this "release a barebones codex + day one DLC supplement + multiple new units with rules-in-the-box several months down the line, rinse and repeat for each army" is going to be a staple GW marketing tactic 2015 onward.

I appreciate a lot that they release codexes much faster now.

Outdated codexes smell, Nids codex was horrible, they're releasing a supplement to try and compensate (I guess), Necron is horribly outdated but it's like one of the last v5 and soon to be replaced... I don't think codexes have ever been this up to date and I like it.

morgoth wrote:
I appreciate a lot that they release codexes much faster now.

Outdated codexes smell, Nids codex was horrible, they're releasing a supplement to try and compensate (I guess), Necron is horribly outdated but it's like one of the last v5 and soon to be replaced... I don't think codexes have ever been this up to date and I like it.

Yeah, it kind of works both ways. You can either have them rapidly updated (making them more expensive) or keep them for a longer cycle (making them outdated, but cheaper) -- but it's not possible to make both camps happy

It would be nice, I suppose, if people could keep "up to date" by getting the updates in White Dwarf, and attaching them to their codex, instead of being forced to buy the revised supplement.

I definitely prefer lists that evolve rather than lists that stay static for 5 year cycles.

morgoth wrote:
I appreciate a lot that they release codexes much faster now.

Outdated codexes smell, Nids codex was horrible, they're releasing a supplement to try and compensate (I guess), Necron is horribly outdated but it's like one of the last v5 and soon to be replaced... I don't think codexes have ever been this up to date and I like it.

The current 5th Edition Codex: Necrons was actually written with 6th Edition in mind. If you'll recall, it had rules in it (such as the Monolith being 'Heavy') that didn't exist in 5th, but did in 6th. Blood Angels is even older, having been released in April of 2010 (I think). Every other Codex is 6th or 7th Edition. I feel like it's hard to complain when 17 out of 19 Codexes are either current or within 1 Edition of being current. You may not like what's in the codex, but we don't currently have an outdated rules issue.

To be fair to the OP, I know what he means.

He wasn't really complaining about the fact there are new units and so on. It's the fact that with the additions, there are in effect pages missing in the codex.

It would feel much more settling for our OCD if we could get the codex re-bound with the new pages glued in. Then it would feel complete.


EDIT: Ringbinder folder codices. Make it happen

I would actually love it if GW sold some sort of Codex Binder that you could populate with hole punched Rules Packs and Unit Entries. Sell each new Codex as a Hard Bound "fluff book" with background, pictures and painting guides. Include with this the rules and unit entries as hole punched sheets intended to be added to a rules binder.

Include hole punched unit entries in the boxes for new units that could be added straight to the rules binder and you'd never have an out of date codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could also mix and match rules packs and unit entries to make a "custom codex" for your particular army. I.e., pull out the unit entries you aren't using and add in the allied entries from other sources you are.

You can do a ring binder codex with additions. Just buy the digital codex and print your 1 copy you are entitled to. Get binder and put rules in.

Or you can put them in a Google play library like me.

Since GW's latest codex format basically has all the unit entries designed in the same manner as White Dwarf datasheets, what GW could do is - if these codexes (not the 6th edition ones) get additional units, stop re-printing these codexes and remove them from stock and re-print them with the additional datasheets bound in and restock their store shelves. While it doesnt make life easier for those of us who already have the codex, it is definitely helpful for new players who havent bought the codex yet and now no longer have to buy one that has all the new stuff missing.

morgoth wrote:
Necron is horribly outdated

Heh... You must be new.

 Kriswall wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I appreciate a lot that they release codexes much faster now.

Outdated codexes smell, Nids codex was horrible, they're releasing a supplement to try and compensate (I guess), Necron is horribly outdated but it's like one of the last v5 and soon to be replaced... I don't think codexes have ever been this up to date and I like it.

The current 5th Edition Codex: Necrons was actually written with 6th Edition in mind. If you'll recall, it had rules in it (such as the Monolith being 'Heavy') that didn't exist in 5th, but did in 6th. Blood Angels is even older, having been released in April of 2010 (I think). Every other Codex is 6th or 7th Edition. I feel like it's hard to complain when 17 out of 19 Codexes are either current or within 1 Edition of being current. You may not like what's in the codex, but we don't currently have an outdated rules issue.

I think there are major problems with the Necron codex and I believe they're related to its age.

Sure, it's never been better, but that's exactly what I stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Necron is horribly outdated

Heh... You must be new.

Heh... You must have not read my initial statement that it has never been better.

Davor wrote:
People pirate because they don't want pay. Even back in 4th and espically 5th, there was so many pirated copies of Rules and Codicies and they were half the price. So I don't think price has anything to do with it. People will pirate no matter what. GW can be selling rules and codicies for a buck and people will still pirate.

I don't think this was really true. People pirated GW rules in 5th edition, but they mostly pirated rules for armies that they didn't play so that they could keep up with their opponents' rules without spending hundreds of dollars on rulebooks, or to see what the possibilities were for a new army that they might be interested in playing. But those were sales GW was never going to make, nobody was going to pay $30 just so they don't have to borrow a store's copy when they want to check a random rule. In my experience most, if not all, players had legal copies of the core rulebook and the codex for every army they actually played and didn't have any problem with buying those books. Now there's a lot more unhappiness about the prices, and a lot less regret at just pirating the DLC for your army. After all, it's not like the store you're playing at could have sold it to you anyway.

In my experience most, if not all, players had legal copies of the core rulebook and the codex for every army they actually played and didn't have any problem with buying those books

Very true specialy as you had to own a codex to play at a store or a tournament. Now armies consist of multiple codex and rulebooks, and what looks to be the future WDs. And if GW decides that the new city fight rules will be core and not just a supplement everyone will have to buy yet another additional rule book, making it to play the core game and crossing the line of starter armies for other gaming systems here.

Do you think they will start to release data slats for every unit and phase out the use of codexes?

 Great White wrote:
Do you think they will start to release data slats for every unit and phase out the use of codexes?

There are advantages to the system. I might want to buy a model to ally into my collection, but not bother because I’d have to drop $50 for the codex for it. On the flip side, how many people would drop the cash for a codex, just for one unit? Somewhere there is a bean counter in GW who has the numbers. As they actually are releasing rules included with models, someone thinks that they are going to make more money that way. Do they follow this to the extreme case, and drop codexes all together? I don’t think that it's likely to happen. But who knows. GW seems to be a a bit of flux with how they are structuring things, so there is always a chance.

 Great White wrote:
Do you think they will start to release data slats for every unit and phase out the use of codexes?

If they phased out codices, I would/expect free PDF downloards for all army selections, not a string of 'Dataslate: Leman Russ Punisher' and 'Dataslate: Leman Russ Demolisher' for 3.99 each.

I don't think GW is going to give up selling codices. For the amount of effort required for a current codex, its too easy for them to print money. Recycle fluff (and use less of it), recycle artwork, recycle rules, shift around point values randomly, print and charge $60. Not to mention the supplement thing, which is even less content for the same price.

I think GW missed the memo on what the “micro” in microtransactions means. For .99 or $1.99 I’d buy anything vaguely related to any of the armies I play, or thought looked cool, or that I might face across the table, or looked to be a fun read. After all, it’s just a buck or two. But at the price they are charging, I’m passing on stuff that’s targeted directly at me.

For what they are charging for a codex, you could get a lot of dataslates ala carte if they were reasonably priced. And you wouldn’t have to pay for the stuff you don’t want. Right now, I shelled out for all the non-Ultramarine special characters that happen to be included in my codex. I’d rather have the rules for Tyranic War Veterans then Crusader squads.

Would I end up spending more money being nickel and dimed by dataslates then by codexes? Probably not, but I’m stingy like that. But it’s a revenue model that works very well in the video game world. I feel that GW could, if they were willing to take the risk, switch over and be successful.

Yes but isnt part of the joy of Warhammer 40k that of owning a codex?

When was the last time you took your e-reader and read through the fluff?

The feeling of flicking through a book cant be beat, IMO, and the age of dataslates makes that impossible.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yes but isnt part of the joy of Warhammer 40k that of owning a codex?

When was the last time you took your e-reader and read through the fluff?

The feeling of flicking through a book cant be beat, IMO, and the age of dataslates makes that impossible.

Oh, I agree completely. Nothing like an actual book to thumb through. It’s also free advertising for the stuff in the codex that you don’t own. I will often look at the rules/fluff for stuff and think “could I use that in my army? Would it fit/be cool?” You loose that if you switch to a page per unit system, everything separate. Even if they do go to a pure, even free, dataslate system, I think they could still publish codexes and make money off them. Just to have everything (at time of printing) bound in one book for the shelf, with all the fluff, background, etc. printed on dead trees. The fact they sell out of the limited edition copies tells me there is a market for such a thing.

An odd thought. Has a Codex ever been released that included, specifically, an already released dataslate? Are dataslates too new for this to have occurred?

I dread the notion of newly updated codices that won't include older dataslates so GW can re-release the updated rules for non-codex units.

 Farseer Pef wrote:
An odd thought. Has a Codex ever been released that included, specifically, an already released dataslate? Are dataslates too new for this to have occurred?

I dread the notion of newly updated codices that won't include older dataslates so GW can re-release the updated rules for non-codex units.

If you consider units in Imperial Armour books then, yes. It really shouldn't be a problem as the dataslates are either unique units/models and thus will not be affected by the codex change or they are groups of units from the codex but without points costs (thus when the new codex comes just use the new costs).