Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 easysauce wrote:
Plenty of people who have actually attended various feminist functions do see this stuff all the time,

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have been an LGBT activist and active feminist for ages

Implying I am lying, are you?

Perhaps this is something mostly specific to the US? I mean, no matter how much you swipe away mine and Peregrine's experiences as anecdotes, I still find it difficult to believe that this 'nutjob feminist' stereotype has any notable root in reality when I have never spotted one. And during my today 18 years of life, I have been involved in feminist/LGBT organisations in Germany, Estonia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England and Switzerland. Hell, I did not even find any such crazies in Morocco or Egypt (but then, I did not manage to find many feminist organisations at all there as I was short on time).

You can link a video of 1 person rambling nonsense, which proves absolutely nothing as it may as well just be attention-seeking. (Wait, wasn't that what people used to dismiss Sarkeesian? )

I am not denying that crazy feminists exist, because they probably do, and I am sure they make a disproportional amount of noise thanks to the internet, but I do not think they are common enough to really acknowledge here when no one is making any 'castrate all men' arguments.

I only met a few avowed ranty feminists - all in the same class in law school. Thats the closest I came to women's studies, and there were some interesting people in that class.


Similarly I've not met any "Men's RIghts Advocates" who weren't attorneys representing men in divorces.

 whembly wrote:

Catcalling is one of those male mating dances that appears to be mostly race/culture-specific... that is, old school italians, inner-city blacks and latinos love it, and their women might very well enjoy it and even occasionally reward it. These guys will also catcall white women, but mostly because they don’t understand that white women generally don’t vibe with that style of machismo.

That last sentence is incredibly racist.

That aside, I think we can agree that catcalling is bad and that the cultures which accept it tend to exhibit less than ideal behavior with respect to women.

99% of actual feminists you will meet in real life are awesome and normal people who simply have more insight into a specific matter or invest more time in it.

The internet, as usual, just bloats a vocal minority up and servers as a stage for attention beggars like Anita who don't do anything for the cause at hand but are just out for attention and money. Yet it's those people a lot of people will think of when hearing the word "feminist".

As usual - just keep in mind that this is the internet, shut off the computer, go outside and talk to any feminist out there if you're interested in it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Plenty of people who have actually attended various feminist functions do see this stuff all the time,

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have been an LGBT activist and active feminist for ages

Implying I am lying, are you?s.

not at all,


what I am actually saying, is that since you say other posters experiences dont count, then your own experiences can be called out as such as well.

 easysauce wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
Plenty of people who have actually attended various feminist functions do see this stuff all the time,

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have been an LGBT activist and active feminist for ages

Implying I am lying, are you?s.

not at all,


what I am actually saying, is that since you say other posters experiences dont count, then your own experiences can be called out as such as well.

Where did I say this?

You may be referring to me being doubtful of your arguments regarding 'feminist nutjobs' but that is purely because I have never seen anything of the like myself (which is why I suggested it may be something specific to US).

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Catcalling is one of those male mating dances that appears to be mostly race/culture-specific... that is, old school italians, inner-city blacks and latinos love it, and their women might very well enjoy it and even occasionally reward it. These guys will also catcall white women, but mostly because they don’t understand that white women generally don’t vibe with that style of machismo.

That last sentence is incredibly racist.

That aside, I think we can agree that catcalling is bad and that the cultures which accept it tend to exhibit less than ideal behavior with respect to women.

Didn't you just say the same thing, that there are different cultures that do this?

 Ashiraya wrote:

You can link a video of 1 person rambling nonsense, which proves absolutely nothing as it may as well just be attention-seeking. (Wait, wasn't that what people used to dismiss Sarkeesian? )

I am not denying that crazy feminists exist, because they probably do, and I am sure they make a disproportional amount of noise thanks to the internet, but I do not think they are common enough to really acknowledge here when no one is making any 'castrate all men' arguments.

OK, then all the feminist videos are also just people rambling nonsense, and all those videos that show men in negative lights, are also disproportional because of the internet.

great, that means videos from both sides can all be ignored totally!

crazy feminists dont have the #s to matter, well, neither do chauvinists!


people brought up that what they actually saw in their experience was a large # of extremist feminists, you countered by saying your experience was the opposite.

not to mention that random rambler whos opinion you dismissed so out of hand has just as much credibility as sarkeesian, and gets just as many death threats.

Have I been targeting chauvinists?

I am aware they exist but I see no reason to acknowledge them in a common debate as I am fairly sure there's already a consensus on them here.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
people brought up that what they actually saw in their experience was a large # of extremist feminists, you countered by saying your experience was the opposite.

And for the third time I ask, is this possibly a thing specific to the US?

Who has actually met a passel of extreme feminists in person? Define extreme feminist first.

I'll proffer an extreme feminist hates your guts. An exteme "Masculinist" will throw acid on your face for being outside without proper covering and will shoot you in the head if you have the temority to want to go to school.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Have I been targeting chauvinists?

I am aware they exist but I see no reason to acknowledge them in a common debate as I am fairly sure there's already a consensus on them here.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
people brought up that what they actually saw in their experience was a large # of extremist feminists, you countered by saying your experience was the opposite.

And for the third time I ask, is this possibly a thing specific to the US?

im not from the states,

I do notice a substantial amount of feminists in my country are extremist, perhaps its different here then your country.

Well, you are on the same landmass, so amend my question to

'Is this possibly a thing specific to north America?'

 Frazzled wrote:

Didn't you just say the same thing, that there are different cultures that do this?

No. I said that titillation varies according to social pressure.

 Frazzled wrote:
Who has actually met a passel of extreme feminists in person? Define extreme feminist first.

I'll proffer an extreme feminist hates your guts. An exteme "Masculinist" will throw acid on your face for being outside without proper covering and will shoot you in the head if you have the temority to want to go to school.

feminism is supposed to be about EQUALITY between both sexes so a feminist who only focuses on womans issues, and ignores mens issues, is on the extreme end.

IE a feminist who speaks out against street attention directed at women, but wont speak out against the same directed at men, is extremist due to the hypocrisy of how this feminist is applying the stated ideology, vs the ACTUAL practice of that ideology.

This kind of disconnect is extremist in nature as it is allowing for victimization of the them but not the us.

frazz, did you miss the video that showed, that right in America, men can be beaten in public by women, and poisoned, and not have anyone care, while women receive help when the situation is reversed. Your acid throwing example is religion based, not gender, not really fair... I could bring up tribes where the women wont take male mates until after extensive genital mutilation, but neither my nor your example would be indicative of modern cultures as a whole.

feminism is supposed to be about EQUALITY between both sexes

Who appointed you the judge of what a movement is supposed to be about?

so a feminist who only focuses on womans issues, and ignores mens issues, is on the extreme end.

Or they're just an advocate like every other advicate and every freaking lawyer in North America. Thats pretty broad. Every lawyer is extreme? Every contract negotiator is extreme?
How do you define those WHO KILL women for not doing what they want?
This is a real extremist.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/isis-forced-marriage-syria-iraq-women-kidnapped

[quoteIE a feminist who speaks out against street attention directed at women, but wont speak out against the same directed at men, is extremist due to the hypocrisy of how this feminist is applying the stated ideology, vs the ACTUAL practice of that ideology.

@easy: That isn't extremism, that's bias.

you would be correct frazzled, IF feminists were not themselves making the claim to be working towards equality for both genders,


Any time I bring up that feminists are only working for females, and that what we need are more humanists rather then feminists, i get told that feminism is working for equality for both genders so humanist is not needed... it seems like feminist get insulted by my suggestions that they only work for female equality.

sohey state directly that both genders equality is their goal,
so its acceptable to hold them to it.

If the feminist groups go back to stating its just about women, then you would be correct.

Plenty of men get killed for being men, no one cares... again, brining up specific religious based examples like ISIS in syria when we are talking about street attention in the states is a bit off..

yes its horrible what happened in syria, woman shouldnt be killed for being women.

I can easily bring up that its legal, acceptable, for men to be forced against their will to kill and die in wars, at least the actions in syria are illegal in most countries.

again, those are religious examples from extremist groups, withing extremist countries

their action are not widely accepted by anyone outside of their own groups,

conversely, the things against men are very much accepted and perpetuated in popular, modern, LOCAL cultures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
@easy: That isn't extremism, that's bias.

someone who practices certain teachings to the detriment of others, IE westboro and frazzs examples, is extremist because they take a part of the religion or movement, and focus ONLY on that part.

IE they take one part and go to the extreme with it.

in the same way, if the feminist movement claims it is actually about equality for all, but the actual practiced focus is on women alone, then they have taken one part and gone to the extreme with it.

it is ALSO a bias, no argument there.

It would be simple enough to simply acknowledge that the movement is in fact, not about mens rights at all, but the claim that feminism actively works for men keeps getting made.

As such, they need to be held to that.

you would be correct frazzled, IF feminists were not themselves making the claim to be working towards equality for both genders,

You’re lumping the whole group as one. I’m sure if I had taken logic I’d be pointing out a fallacy here.
But assuming you’re correct, that’s not extremism, that’s subterfuge. I like subterfuge
Doesn’t compare with cutting off heads and gak.

Any time I bring up that feminists are only working for females, and that what we need are more humanists rather then feminists, i get told that feminism is working for equality for both genders so humanist is not needed... it seems like feminist get insulted by my suggestions that they only work for female equality.

I’m not making the claim. I will accept it on its face. That’s not extremism. That’s advocacy.

sohey state directly that both genders equality is their goal,
so its acceptable to hold them to it.

Again this whole “they” thing.

If the feminist groups go back to stating its just about women, then you would be correct.

And that makes them un-extremist?

Plenty of men get killed for being men,

Really? When?

no one cares... again, brining up specific religious based examples like ISIS in syria when we are talking about street attention in the states is a bit off.. [/quoite]
Religion is just pretext. There’s nothing in Kuran about any of that. Crazies only need a pretext. Again, an extremist feminist is not out there cutting of men’s…heads and gak.

yes its horrible what happened in syria, woman shouldnt be killed for being women.

So you agree that’s the REAL face of an extremist.

I can easily bring up that its legal, acceptable, for men to be forced against their will to kill and die in wars, at least the actions in syria are illegal in most countries.

Yep. Of course, women always bear the b runt of losing said wars.

again, those are religious examples from extremist groups, withing extremist countries

Extremist is extremist. You’re just playing the statistics game now of adjusting your market or field of study to make it what you want the results to be. Sorry you don’t get to do that.

{quote]their action are not widely accepted by anyone outside of their own groups,

Irrelevant. That’s what a real extremist is, not some university hothouse flower who couldn’t offend her way out of a paper bag outside of a university.

{quote]conversely, the things against men are very much accepted and perpetuated in popular, modern, LOCAL cultures.

 Frazzled wrote:

You’re lumping the whole group as one. I’m sure if I had taken logic I’d be pointing out a fallacy here.

Composition fallacy or, if you want to be noncommittal, false generalization.

Danke!

 easysauce wrote:

It would be simple enough to simply acknowledge that the movement is in fact, not about mens rights at all, but the claim that feminism actively works for men keeps getting made.

I have never heard that claim made.

I've heard it been made but never as any sort of primary purpose just as an aside. As in a "and also men too may benefit by..."

I believe, here in the UK, there's been some progress being made about getting companies to consider extending paternity leave, by sharing it more with the partners maternity leave, in order to get women back to work.

 easysauce wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Do you think it is acceptable to treat people like that?

Im noticing a distinct lack of answering that same question when posed to yourself.

Is it ok to talk to men in the street? yes no?

how about the other ways we treat men i listed, are those acceptable to you? yes no?




spoilered for language

Spoiler:

when a woman is attacked by a guy, people jump in to help her,

in the reverse
this happens


when a man spikes a womans drink, people jump in to help her

in reverse




so you think this is acceptable behavior killkrazy? or at least, so un important that having people say "hi beautiful" on the street is more important?

I dont hear feminists *ever* talk about these inequalities despite the movement supposedly being about equality.

This video and this thread are about sexist harassment of women. It's irrelevant what anyone says or thinks about other topics.

Why don't you first condemn such behaviour, then ask others to condemn similar behaviour towards men?

Apparently you think that because I haven't condemned sexist harassment of men, sexist harassment of women is acceptable.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

This video and this thread are about sexist harassment of women. It's irrelevant what anyone says or thinks about other topics.

Why don't you first condemn such behaviour, then ask others to condemn similar behaviour towards men?

Apparently you think that because I haven't condemned sexist harassment of men, sexist harassment of women is acceptable.

So, in a thread about a video that alleges harassment of women, any talk about how its not harassment to say hi to people isnt allowed, and is in fact *irrelevant* in your own words.


got it, dissenting opinions even when backed by facts or comparable situations where the reverse happens, are not allowed...

just further proves the point,

post a video when people say hi to a woman, thats harassment of women.

post a video where people say hi to a man, thats totally irrelevant, you can only talk about how women are harassed.

post a video that shows society accepting violence towards women, great! more proof that society sucks!

post a video that shows society accepting violence towards men, TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!

its a very one sided conversation at that point when you say the rules are *any evidence to the contrary is unwelcome and irrelevant

so if a thread gets started about how creationism is totally legit, no one can post in that thread with opposing opinions i guess...

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You’re lumping the whole group as one. I’m sure if I had taken logic I’d be pointing out a fallacy here.

Composition fallacy or, if you want to be noncommittal, false generalization.

Tada!

People now know what to do now!

do not lump a bunch of people together.

Women are harassed, men are harassed.

We are bloody human beings we oppress everyone no matter what we do. For every positive there is a negative, for every negative is a positive.

Wrong = a Right, right = wrong.

Basically the theory is that there is always negative or postitive things that happen when you do something either negative or postitive.

Human beings in general will come to the aide of a woman, but not of a man, because we expect men to be strong. WE have the preception that men are strong and do not need help. The stereotype for men is that they never ask for directions. Guess what I do? I ask for direction. I do not go off by myself in a place I don't know. That is nonsensical, I was actually told that I am not like most men. And I replied. "Some are, some aren't."

The problem is that people forget that each case should be looked at by a case by case basis. Some here are being harassed report that, that person said hi, thats not harassment. Etc etc.

WE can't treat everything that is direct at someone as harassment due to the insanity that details.

 easysauce wrote:
Our culture wont protect its men, it will protect its women and even keep laws that favor women on the books, yet somehow, society is women hating as a whole.

Funny how from a survival / reproduction point of view men are rather disposable.

"All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly which can--and must--be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basis is possible. Attempts to formulate a "perfect society" on any foundation other than "Women and children first!" is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly--and no doubt will keep on trying." - Robert A. Heinlein

It is a given that the primary prejudice in our society toward women is that they are in need of protection.
The primary means of aggression that can happen toward women is assumed to come from men.

I have seen circumstances where when a woman chooses to be the aggressor in "polite society" invariably the man will lose.

I'm a strong supporter of men's rights and women's rights. Both get their fair share of harassment and unequal treatment based on stereotypes. We as people tend to make assumptions. It's in our nature and not going to change any time soon. As unfortunate as it is... however, catcalling is less of a poisonous outcome of our assumption based discrimination.

Personally, catcalling is not harmful in anyway unless someone is physically harming me or using words like "Hey, you stupid whore, come sit on my dick" or something of that type.

This is just my selfish, one sided perspective and mine alone. I wouldn't feel shamed or hurt by any of those comments. My confidence might even be boosted. We are after all attention seeking creatures whether you like to admit to it or not.

I've noticed that whenever this subject comes up, a lot of men get really defensive about it. It really makes me lose hope for the future, because it seems like the majority of men either don't care or actively resist the idea that there might be something wrong.

I think it's just very difficult for men to relate to women on this issue, because men generally aren't coveted in the same way -- it's a completely alien concept. For a men, loads of women trying to sleep with him all the time sounds like a dream come true. But it isn't like that because women aren't men. Imagine having to walk around a prison all day long with lots of 250lbs guys trying to be your "friend", see how comfortable you are with it then. See if you really feel good about guys buying you "presents". See if you really believe Bubba is interested in you for your personality. That's a more accurate analogy, and it's terrifying.

The number of women I know (girls who I grew up with) who have been raped is disturbing and abhorrent -- and those are just the ones I've been told about. It seems like every woman can tell a story. Though sadly, the best way for a women to not get harassed is to stand next to a man, which unfortunately is why so many men are oblivious to what goes on when she's alone.

I think the real joke is men saying that women are overreacting, and going on about "crazy misandrist feminists". As much as I hate to generalize, men are much more prone to the violent type of overreaction than women are (bombs, genocide etc...), if men experienced half the gak that women put up with on a daily basis then they would be the most extreme, crazy, man-hating, bitches ever. I think I've lost count of all the times I've heard men blurt out phrases like "put them all on an island" or "bullet in the head" when discussing people they don't like. In comparison I think women take it on the chin quite well. Men really need to shut up about that.

 Smacks wrote:
I've noticed that whenever this subject comes up, a lot of men get really defensive about it. It really makes me lose hope for the future, because it seems like the majority of men either don't care or actively resist the idea that there might be something wrong.

I think it's just very difficult for men to relate to women on this issue, because men generally aren't coveted in the same way -- it's a completely alien concept. For a men, loads of women trying to sleep with him all the time sounds like a dream come true. But it isn't like that because women aren't men. Imagine having to walk around a prison all day long with lots of 250lbs guys trying to be your "friend", see how comfortable you are with it then. See if you really feel good about guys buying you "presents". See if you really believe Bubba is interested in you for your personality. That's a more accurate analogy, and it's terrifying.

The number of women I know (girls who I grew up with) who have been raped is disturbing and abhorrent -- and those are just the ones I've been told about. It seems like every woman can tell a story. Though sadly, the best way for a women to not get harassed is to stand next to a man, which unfortunately is why so many men are oblivious to what goes on when she's alone.

I think the real joke is men saying that women are overreacting, and going on about "crazy misandrist feminists". As much as I hate to generalize, men are much more prone to the violent type of overreaction than women are (bombs, genocide etc...), if men experienced half the gak that women put up with on a daily basis then they would be the most extreme, crazy, man-hating, bitches ever. I think I've lost count of all the times I've heard men blurt out phrases like "put them all on an island" or "bullet in the head" when discussing people they don't like. In comparison I think women take it on the chin quite well. Men really need to shut up about that.

Have you read my discussion on the topic.

I disagree with feminists on certain issues and this is the only one I disagree with. They inflate facts and distort things. That is what they are known for.

They say we live a rape culture. They put out this ridicilous numbers with very little evidence and take the facts already given and inflating them to ridiculous numbers.

There are some instances of them being right. And when I do I tip my hat to them. But most times it is a distorted to fit a certain narrative.

I disagree with the fact that men are more likely to do something stupid. I know some women that are more cruel than I am. When a girl is angry at you, they go for the throat without a second questioning. They know how to hit men. And this is just my experience with rich white girls so maybe my opinion is moot. Some of them waited a year or so, and then struck. They have time. They know what to do.

I mean I am hit on all the time. I am a guy, I am cat called and I don't like it. But I know not to be hyper senstive and to strike out at people.

IF someone says hi. I say hi back, even if I don't find them attractive. Because I am not a judgmental jerk.I understand in this day and age it is actually hard to not be a white man. But the fact is that you cannot ignore the experience of one.

I feel like the issue though is that we are taught since we are children not to treat everyone equally, but we are told. "I am special, YOU ARE SPECIAL!"

Instead of "We are special, regardless of color or gender."

I remember reading a study where children carry some of their biases till they are older. Or maybe my memory is fading. But it stated that children could possibly be disposed into that thinking from their parents. My parents are... not very kind to certain types of people. And are extremely judgemental.

But I do agree and hopefully someone does as well. Men are raped too, the only reason we don't hear about it is because of one reason. Who the hell would believe that? It sounds ridiculous!

I do also agree that women are probably raped more then men. That is a definite fact. But saying that x percentage of y are more likely to be raped is... misinformed. The thing is that those numbers mean very little. Instead it should be thought about. Where are you most likely to get attacked or raped. If you give that out there is more likely a chance that you will be raped. Basically areas where there is more raped reported. Like school campuses, in this certain area of new york. Stay away from there. Teach women that to defend themselves. Teach women how to kick ass. Teach women to stay away from certain areas. Travel in packs. Ensure that you do not go somewhere and buy a drink from a stranger. There should be more steps taken to prevent it. But we cannot punish every single man on the planet and generalize. Because that is damning a large group of people.

(Rapists in my opinion, I think there punishment should be if they brag about it, sterilization, if they abused her, held her or him against their will, drugged her, I think sterilization is the only way to go in that case. Get them out of the genepool. But I think there needs to be more burden of proof, and more narrowing down of the meaning of rape, as sadly some people do make false rape accusations, they do exist and to say I am being sexist for saying they do indeed exist, I suggest you leave and read up on it, as it does exist, but they are uncommon. I do not think false ones occur. I like to think so, but they do happen.)

But thats just me. If they regret it and actually do something more than apologize. IE join the military in complete regret. Or give rapists a choice, jail + sterlization, 'community' work, or service to the country.

Based Mom chimes in.