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2014/11/14 21:26:06
Subject: Re:How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
On the subject of harassment. It really depends on your perspective. A lot of celebrities feel that they are harassed by fans and photographers, even though each individual fan or paparazzi probably does very little. All the attention combined can feel overwhelming.
Being harassed by 'men' is not the same as being harassed by 'one man'. Saying hello is not harassment on its own, but a large group of people all saying hello relentlessly is harassment "by that group". The video lets men see that what they are doing actually might be more bothersome and harassing than they think. It might be 'just saying hello' but it can also be 'just the straw that broke the camel's back'.
2014/11/14 21:49:59
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
This is exactly why I don't say 'hi' to women. One time a ciswoman tried to provoke me into harrassing her. She walks up to me and is all over me saying things like, "can i help you find anything, sir?" I wasn't going to fall into her trap just like Adam did when he followed Eve's advice and was thrown out of paradise. So I threw the garden rake I had been planning on purchasing at her and made well my escape. A few days later the oppressive police arrested me. #blamethevictim
2014/11/14 21:55:03
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
dethork wrote: This is exactly why I don't say 'hi' to women. One time a ciswoman tried to provoke me into harrassing her. She walks up to me and is all over me saying things like, "can i help you find anything, sir?" I wasn't going to fall into her trap just like Adam did when he followed Eve's advice and was thrown out of paradise. So I threw the garden rake I had been planning on purchasing at her and made well my escape. A few days later the oppressive police arrested me. #blamethevictim
I was going to be sarcastic too, but then I realized that neither of us would be improving this thread.
1.) When a woman is walking down the street, just leave her alone if she doesn't obviously want to talk to you. Eyes down, walking with purpose? Just leave her alone.
2.) If you are with a friend who catcalls, maybe tell him not to be a jerk?
That's all I got.
That, and this being the Dakka OT, I feel pretty good about being able to predict pretty much who is going to post in this thread and what they are going to say.
I totally agree with above. Watched the video and all I have to say is wow... very disgusting.
lol "nothing is more badass then treating women with respect"-Torgue
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/14 22:07:31
First rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. Second rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. -Tyler Durden
2014/11/14 22:11:02
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
Frazzled wrote: And here we have the "blame the victim" post in its natural environment...
Yes, feels good to get on that high horse.
But in this case from personal experience, you in turn are blaming the victim: me.
Born into a family with no say on how I was to be treated.
A mother with a strong sense of entitlement and children being rather inconvenient.
Saying loving things like "I wish you were never born!" and "When you get that look on your face I just want to slap it!".
"Blame the victim" in all cases is absurd but do not lecture to me if my mother did not deserve something or anyone that act in that fashion.
There is two sides to everything and I find these fine discussions we have are so black and white, must be nice to live in that white picket fence life of yours.
The problem is our "civilized" society has no adequate punishment for those who like to mentally torture people for kicks.
So people who may have been victimized in turn get to be judged the abusers.
My mother has managed to date ruin at least 3 people's lives and I have not laid a hand on her.
I am sure society has benefitted from putting women on a pedestal based on their gender rather than merit like my wife has demonstrated.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/11/14 22:16:14
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
The important difference is: One is on topic and one is not. I'd be more open to hearing about DV against men, if this was a topic about that, but it isn't. It's a topic about women that is getting derailed.
There are no topics on men's problems. It's taboo. Not allowed.
Heck, when gays boycotted some Brunei hotel chain because of a law that made homosexuality punishable by death, feminists said that the gays have no business fighting for their own rights and should help feminists instead.
The important difference is: One is on topic and one is not. I'd be more open to hearing about DV against men, if this was a topic about that, but it isn't. It's a topic about women that is getting derailed.
There are no topics on men's problems. It's taboo. Not allowed.
Heck, when gays boycotted some Brunei hotel chain because of a law that made homosexuality punishable by death, feminists said that the gays have no business fighting for their own rights and should help feminists instead.
The important difference is: One is on topic and one is not. I'd be more open to hearing about DV against men, if this was a topic about that, but it isn't. It's a topic about women that is getting derailed.
There are no topics on men's problems. It's taboo. Not allowed.
Heck, when gays boycotted some Brunei hotel chain because of a law that made homosexuality punishable by death, feminists said that the gays have no business fighting for their own rights and should help feminists instead.
What bearing does that have upon women being catcalled on the street?
Pointing out the double standard. Women can come into a male rights debate and tell them to shut the don't bypass the language filter like this. Last warning. Reds8n up and do something for women instead, but men aren't allowed to even say "we have problems too" in a female rights debate. Which you very nicely demonstrated just now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/15 12:48:34
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2014/11/14 23:09:21
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
Pointing out the double standard. Women can come into a male rights debate and tell them to shut the f*** up and do something for women instead, but men aren't allowed to even say "we have problems too" in a female rights debate. Which you very nicely demonstrated just now.
Men have problems too. It was never my intention to deny or try to refute that. There are quite a few double standards involved in being a man. I just see divisiveness where I wish I saw more "people are seriously offended, we need to seriously consider their concerns, rather than handwaving them away."
I mean, I have issues that another man, no... person would dismiss simply because they aren't their issues. That doesn't make them less real to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I'm just saying that if there's enough room on the internet for a "yugioh is on netflix" thread and the pony people to exist, there's room enough to make a separate thread for that rather than turning a thread into some kind of "Gender Wars".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/14 23:11:38
Smacks wrote: On the subject of harassment. It really depends on your perspective. A lot of celebrities feel that they are harassed by fans and photographers, even though each individual fan or paparazzi probably does very little. All the attention combined can feel overwhelming.
Being harassed by 'men' is not the same as being harassed by 'one man'. Saying hello is not harassment on its own, but a large group of people all saying hello relentlessly is harassment "by that group". The video lets men see that what they are doing actually might be more bothersome and harassing than they think. It might be 'just saying hello' but it can also be 'just the straw that broke the camel's back'.
Actually it honestly doesn't make me feel like she was harassed bar a small group. Like that one dude that stalked her and the one that was wining about her not responding. And the guy that was like hey he complemented you. Past that? It says walking 10 hours and then only a small few minutes total of "harassment" when quite a bit doesn't really feel like anything in the grand scheme of things. Still doesn't excuse the creepy ones that were really harassing though. Getting to that small few I honestly don't know. Words are nuanced, people do stupid things, and really I don't know what any solution could be. Life's complicated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/14 23:24:00
lord_blackfang wrote: There are no topics on men's problems. It's taboo. Not allowed.
There is a topic right now on Dakka about the injustice of the word "mansplaining". You can make a topic about any issue you want.
Heck, when gays boycotted some Brunei hotel chain because of a law that made homosexuality punishable by death, feminists said that the gays have no business fighting for their own rights and should help feminists instead.
Actually it wasn't "feminists" who criticized them, it was just Rose McGowan (and possibly Bret Easton Ellis -- an openly gay man -- sometimes).
They weren't criticizing just men, it was directed at the LGBT community which most definitely includes women.
And she never said they "they had no right" or that they "should help feminists instead". She said their protest was misinformed. And she criticized them for not helping women oppressed by sharia law as well as gay men, definitely not instead of.
In any case, I can't be held accountable for what Rose McGowan does. And just because she does something questionable doesn't mean it's suddenly okay to derail every discussion on feminism. That is yet another example of tu quoque. Two wrongs do not make a right.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/11/15 02:58:16
2014/11/15 02:48:20
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
People who throw around the word "feminazi" should be marched to Auschwitz to learn what kind of people they are trivializing when they compare their first world problems to genocide.
2014/11/15 02:56:46
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
d-usa wrote: People who throw around the word "feminazi" should be marched to Auschwitz to learn what kind of people they are trivializing when they compare their first world problems to genocide.
Should we do the same to those who throw around the term "grammar nazi" ??
IMO, using the term "nazi" doesn't diminish the terrible things that they did, but rather it CAN (in the case of extreme feminists) point out how "insane" that person, or group of people is being.
2014/11/15 03:17:41
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
Ensis Ferrae wrote: IMO, using the term "nazi" doesn't diminish the terrible things that they did, but rather it CAN (in the case of extreme feminists) point out how "insane" that person, or group of people is being.
If you genuinely do believe that “feminazi” are on par with nazi, you definitely should get that tour to Auschwitz. At least those that use the grammar nazi expression do not take it seriously.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/11/15 03:36:38
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
Men have problems too. It was never my intention to deny or try to refute that. There are quite a few double standards involved in being a man. I just see divisiveness where I wish I saw more "people are seriously offended, we need to seriously consider their concerns, rather than handwaving them away."
I mean, I have issues that another man, no... person would dismiss simply because they aren't their issues. That doesn't make them less real to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I'm just saying that if there's enough room on the internet for a "yugioh is on netflix" thread and the pony people to exist, there's room enough to make a separate thread for that rather than turning a thread into some kind of "Gender Wars".
OHMYGOD I'M POPULAR!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smacks wrote: On the subject of harassment. It really depends on your perspective. A lot of celebrities feel that they are harassed by fans and photographers, even though each individual fan or paparazzi probably does very little. All the attention combined can feel overwhelming.
Being harassed by 'men' is not the same as being harassed by 'one man'. Saying hello is not harassment on its own, but a large group of people all saying hello relentlessly is harassment "by that group". The video lets men see that what they are doing actually might be more bothersome and harassing than they think. It might be 'just saying hello' but it can also be 'just the straw that broke the camel's back'.
Good thing to know. I almost said hi to another human being today. i'm such a terrible person.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: IMO, using the term "nazi" doesn't diminish the terrible things that they did, but rather it CAN (in the case of extreme feminists) point out how "insane" that person, or group of people is being.
If you genuinely do believe that “feminazi” are on par with nazi, you definitely should get that tour to Auschwitz. At least those that use the grammar nazi expression do not take it seriously.
It's an expression. No one is diminishing the fact that the Holocaust is a terrible thing, it's just the term "blank nazi" has become commonplace American slang. It's not even meant to call people insane, it's meant to call people radical who do that behavior radical or overzealous.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/15 12:49:52
Sining wrote: It's called sarcasm. Next thing you know you'll be saying he can't make posts like these. It's too triggering.
Maybe he was trying to be ironic. Some kind of reduction to absurdity, where we are supposed to imagine some 'absurd place' where just saying "hi" is weird and scary -- otherwise known as a city.
Saying hi to another human being sounds so beautiful and innocent. But that doesn't do justice to the reality of accosting someone in the street because you want to have sex with them, which does 'kind of' make you a terrible person.
I live in the city, and I'm pretty guarded when strangers talk to me in the street. Usually they just want money -- but even if the person of my dreams stopped me in the street for a chat, I'd still be thinking: "Why the hell is this dreamy hot weirdo talking to me? ... I wish I had some pepper spray".
EDIT: I found another video, where they contrast a girl in quite tight clothing against the same girl wearing a hijab. One of the guys doesn't give up.
It's interesting that no one seems to "just say hi" to her when she is in the hijab. Why is it all these guys suddenly aren't feeling so 'polite'? This makes me question their motivations. It might be difficult to prove that these guys are mainly after sex, but it seems fairly obvious none the less.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/11/15 05:27:48
2014/11/15 05:19:32
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
d-usa wrote: People who throw around the word "feminazi" should be marched to Auschwitz to learn what kind of people they are trivializing when they compare their first world problems to genocide.
Thanks officer Tone Police. Got any more concern trolling for us?
It's interesting that no one seems to "just say hi" to her when she is in the hijab. Why is it all these guys suddenly aren't feeling so 'polite'? This makes me question their motivations. It might be difficult to prove that these guys are mainly after sex, but it seems fairly obvious none the less.
What? It's all the same guys? And there's nothing wrong with trying to get to know a woman you find attractive if you keep it polite.
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/
2014/11/15 05:42:43
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
It's interesting that no one seems to "just say hi" to her when she is in the hijab. Why is it all these guys suddenly aren't feeling so 'polite'? This makes me question their motivations. It might be difficult to prove that these guys are mainly after sex, but it seems fairly obvious none the less.
Um... o.O
Men, by and large, are visually stimulated. Of course men want sex.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/11/15 06:10:14
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
d-usa wrote: People who throw around the word "feminazi" should be marched to Auschwitz to learn what kind of people they are trivializing when they compare their first world problems to genocide.
Thanks officer Tone Police. Got any more concern trolling for us?
Maybe later, the night is young.
Should Officer be capitalized?
2014/11/15 06:16:33
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
Smacks wrote: I found another video, where they contrast a girl in quite tight clothing against the same girl wearing a hijab. One of the guys doesn't give up.
The guys who made that video of the male model walking around have made a new one. A woman with painted on jeans.
d-usa wrote: People who throw around the word "feminazi" should be marched to Auschwitz to learn what kind of people they are trivializing when they compare their first world problems to genocide.
Thanks officer Tone Police. Got any more concern trolling for us?
Well people who refer to not doing well in a video game as being raped is pretty stupid as well, if that counts.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2014/11/15 06:21:33
Subject: How do you help stop this type of harassing behavior?
It's hyperbole, and it extends to lots of different types of language. Trying to claim it has one meaning and one meaning only is why things like "Tumblr Ableism" exists.
lord_blackfang wrote: There are no topics on men's problems. It's taboo. Not allowed.
There is a topic right now on Dakka about the injustice of the word "mansplaining". You can make a topic about any issue you want.
Heck, when gays boycotted some Brunei hotel chain because of a law that made homosexuality punishable by death, feminists said that the gays have no business fighting for their own rights and should help feminists instead.
Actually it wasn't "feminists" who criticized them, it was just Rose McGowan (and possibly Bret Easton Ellis -- an openly gay man -- sometimes).
They weren't criticizing just men, it was directed at the LGBT community which most definitely includes women.
And she never said they "they had no right" or that they "should help feminists instead". She said their protest was misinformed. And she criticized them for not helping women oppressed by sharia law as well as gay men, definitely not instead of.
In any case, I can't be held accountable for what Rose McGowan does. And just because she does something questionable doesn't mean it's suddenly okay to derail every discussion on feminism. That is yet another example of tu quoque. Two wrongs do not make a right.
At least avoid supporting her argument. She also went on to go gay males are all even more misogynistic than straight people ablublublu look at all the good feminism has done for you and all your equal rights that you have received but I don't see you charging around championing anybody else's rights. It was a gakky claim and should just be tossed aside. And yes, she did focus on gay males in particular before hissing at lesbians and going on a general rant of feminism and should be working for them blah blah blah. She isn't to be ALL FEMINISTS, just one really. But yeah, you are kinda sweeping things under. I still stick to the statement that the internet's ability to let any opinion forment and then gain group support in conjunction with the ease by which individuals can find things plus the overall petty attitude of humanity at large leads to this fest of misery.
And whoa seriously this argument is starting to go in some ridiculous directions. Not going to lie, I like the idea of splitting the comments up to focus on one and the other but I've just gotten too used to seeing these wars break out (and I can't help but feel like if another thread brought any of the blahblahmenwah stuff it'd get smacked by a bunch of people anyways. That and this conversation has long stepped away from harassing into... well whatever mass entity of everything that is whatever it is.
Sining wrote: It's called sarcasm. Next thing you know you'll be saying he can't make posts like these. It's too triggering.
Maybe he was trying to be ironic. Some kind of reduction to absurdity, where we are supposed to imagine some 'absurd place' where just saying "hi" is weird and scary -- otherwise known as a city.
Saying hi to another human being sounds so beautiful and innocent. But that doesn't do justice to the reality of accosting someone in the street because you want to have sex with them, which does 'kind of' make you a terrible person.
I live in the city, and I'm pretty guarded when strangers talk to me in the street. Usually they just want money -- but even if the person of my dreams stopped me in the street for a chat, I'd still be thinking: "Why the hell is this dreamy hot weirdo talking to me? ... I wish I had some pepper spray".
EDIT:
I found another video, where they contrast a girl in quite tight clothing against the same girl wearing a hijab. One of the guys doesn't give up.
It's interesting that no one seems to "just say hi" to her when she is in the hijab. Why is it all these guys suddenly aren't feeling so 'polite'? This makes me question their motivations. It might be difficult to prove that these guys are mainly after sex, but it seems fairly obvious none the less.
My point was that avoiding any communication on the chance that said stranger is going to feel harassed is pretty damn silly. There is already a lack of community in America due to individualism and people feeling disenfranchised from society, but if people stop talking others on the basis that they might be harassing the other person, then we might as well just be hobbits and never leave the cave or talk to anyone. Also, guess what? I can separate my libido from my brain and make decisions without thinking with my penis. I can say "Hi" to someone without wanting to actively feth them. Even if I did, I'm not going to transform into a monster who will just rape the first woman I see.
Also, I consider myself pretty mindful. If I say "Hi" and you obviously don't want to talk, I'll leave you alone. It's pretty simple.
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