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Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.

Re-tooling the MoA and Goblins is a great idea, but sadly I don't see Mantic managing it any time this century, they still have the rest of the Abyssal, Forces of Nature, numerous units/heroes missing from the
other armies and of course those Twilight Kin are gonna need actual models at some point, theres just so much other stuff right now that has a potential higher priority.

Now if Mantic could re-tool both of them outside of a kickstarter as a sort of "surprise improvement" that would incur some serious good will from the fan-base.

Hell at this rate I'd be happy if they just released Remy's original MoA sculpts in resnic as special order, it probably be an improvement.

There are lots and lots of historical minis from a variety of sources that do the job of the men-at-arms (both plastic ad metal),

and many folk transitioning in from another fantasy game will probably have something of the sort

so for experienced gamers that shop around they are effectively a waste of time to re-do

(that said new gamers who don't know of the alternatives would benefit from having them re-done)

I don't think there's really anything that covers the niche Men-at-arms target. You can find humans with X equipment anywhere, but MaA are distinctly non-historical high fantasy models to fit with the high fantasy look of the basileans. All the GW humans are distinctly quasi-historical at the moment, and historicals are...well...historicals.

The concept of the MaA is good. It was just the worst execution Mantic could have ever done.

I'll put it this way, people but GW MaA for bretonnian armies and state troops for empire armies, even though they could easily cross over. People buy historical models for the right periods and the right forces for a reason. Fit is an important consideration.

 sukura636 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.

I'm not sure I follow.

Upgrading the Men at Arms from third-rate historicals to second-rate historicals still doesn't give people a good reason to choose them over the first-rate historicals that are already on the market. Any money spent on redoing the Men at Arms is better spent on products that do not have this quality of competition. This also has the advantage of meaningfully expanding the range of units available to the player, which wallowing in the same rut fails to do.

 Rolt wrote:

Theres are whole bunch of these D&D Miniatures - Lords of Madness Trebuchets all over Ebay for about £4



Any good?

Wow! Thanks for posting that, I've never seen one of those before. That would be perfect for my "Bad Guy" army (mostly Chaos Kingdoms of Man) army. It's even got some nice chaos'ish elements on it. Should I buy 2 or 3 of these?

Pre-paints can be a great source for warengines and even figures. My buddy has some Mage Knight war engines that look fine, and this trebuchet looks even nicer than those. Here's two that he put on new bases with the stock paintjob.

Yeah there are so many great ranges of historicals that I can't see the MAA being worth while.

My gf is going to use a combination of perry medevils and some fireforge guys for paladins. Mixing those wouldn't work for histroicals but works fine for fantasy baselians.

 carlos13th wrote:
Yeah there are so many great ranges of historicals that I can't see the MAA being worth while.

My gf is going to use a combination of perry medevils and some fireforge guys for paladins. Mixing those wouldn't work for histroicals but works fine for fantasy baselians.

Very True. I think some of the baselians units are pretty good, but the Men at Arms set is not one of them.

What I really wish for is for some company to do a plastic "Fantasy accessory sprue" that would provide a single themed sprue of alternate heads, helmets, shields, weapons, and possibly some command and decorative elements to add to the armor of perry plastics. Really, that's probably what Mantic should have done in the first place rather than the product they came out with.

 sukura636 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.

Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.

I'm not sure I follow.

Because only rare deviants like me would ever want a fantasy human army that wasn't 100% historical.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
Honestly, I think that resculpting the men-at-arms and goblins (include weapon options for both) would be a great investment in goodwill. Ideally, resculpt them and include a single sprue for free with the basic pledge level as a "money where your mouth is" option.

Redoing the goblins isn't a bad idea, but tooling the Men at Arms was already stupid the first time. Money spent redoing the Men at Arms is money not spent on another, more deserving kit.

I'm not sure I follow.

Because only rare deviants like me would ever want a fantasy human army that wasn't 100% historical.

Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.

 Eilif wrote:
Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.

Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.

Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.

So for the human faction based on pseudo historical roots, what would be a viable alternative?

All this discussion of KoM being pretty flexible with what figures you use may finally be the excuse I needed to get some Wargames Factory Figures.

 sukura636 wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.

Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.

So for the human faction based on pseudo historical roots, what would be a viable alternative?

Depends on what you are looking for? For a Medieval/Crusader theme, Fireforge makes some good models. Wargames factory I know has some good 16th century Japan kits and Greek Hoplites if you are into that.

 adamsouza wrote:
All this discussion of KoM being pretty flexible with what figures you use may finally be the excuse I needed to get some Wargames Factory Figures.

Which ones are you looking at? Quality is not uniform across their ranges.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
All this discussion of KoM being pretty flexible with what figures you use may finally be the excuse I needed to get some Wargames Factory Figures.

Which ones are you looking at? Quality is not uniform across their ranges.

They generally got better as they went along. Honestly though, I was just thinking of whatever filled the unit description best. I'm way more into fantasy than historical accuracy. Their greatest appeal to me is the low cost per model.

Do you have any particular recommendations ?

Samurai and Hoplites were my favorites. I like the Amazons, Vikings and Numidians, too, but they were definitely early kits with some facial issues or stiff posing. The Persian kit might work well with spare arms (and probably heads) from another kit.

The Romans and Celts were really bad, though.

I have seen some pictures of the Shock Troops converted into fantasy heavy infantry (with head and hand swaps) and they worked surprisingly well.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Still not sure Alex or Bob are making sense. Even though there are clearly better historical plastic infantry kits available, retooling the MaAs makes alot of sense. Mantic has already committed to the Baselians as a faction with a unique look that carries across all units and as being distinct from the other KoM. For the entire faction to be viable Manic NEEDS to get a good quality plastic core unit for them, and the current MaA is just not that. It doesn't even have to be amazing, just something on par with the basic orc or Dwarf sprues.

Having a good quality plastic core unit is important for the health of the Basilian faction. But that does not require that that unit be the Men at Arms, or even that that unit must be produced in house. Give them a core unit that's actually worth making in plastic, and the problem disappears.

Not sure what you mean by "not worth" making in plastic. Plastic is best for units that will be most plentiful in a given army, usually the core basic infantry unit. MaA are the core infantry unit of the Baselians. Further, because Baselians now have a particular aesthetic, a generic historical infantry is no longer a good substitute. I stand by my initial statement that Baselians need a good quality plastic core unit, and that MaA are that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Went ahead and ordered 3 of these Trebuchet from Ebay.

In particular this listing http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trebuchet-Lords-of-Madness-52-D-D-Dungeon-Miniature-Rare-VG-/321581438940?pt=Games_US&hash=item4adfbf57dc
I'll take some scale pics when I get them. I'd like to base them up, but if they won't fit on 50mm squares, I'll just leave them off. Anyone know the diameter of the large size D&D bases that they appear to come on? Even if Ballista's get taken down a notch in the new rules, it will be good do have some nice flavorful (note the screaming face motif on the bracing sections) for my army.

I've also got a LoTR Orc Ballista that I'll probably paint up for my KoW army.

The "basileans" can easily be used as an oriental faction. Treat regular troopers as Ashigaru, use samurais for knights, and theme the elohi as kamis instead of angels...

If anyone didn't listen to the latest ep of Mantic Radio, Ronnie was on there talking a lot about KoW2, and something which jumped out at me was most of the large infantry, like ogres and elohie, will have the option to run them as single figure units away. I like this idea.

What are the approximate point values for the Starter Armies?

(Also, same question for the Mega Starter Armies....)

I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).

At this point, I'm thinking of just pledging $51 for the Dwarf Starter Army, free shipping. I'm guessing you will still be able to download the 2nd Edition rulebook for free?

If not, I may pledge $100 and get the rulebooks, counters, Blaine, and Dwarf Start Army.

Thanks - Mez

 The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
The "basileans" can easily be used as an oriental faction. Treat regular troopers as Ashigaru, use samurais for knights, and theme the elohi as kamis instead of angels...

Kingdoms of Men makes a more historically accurate Samurai army.

I dunno I think some of the regular KoW players hereabouts have reported playing fun games in the 500-600 point range, correct me if I'm wrong guys. I think if you're playing mass battles regiment-based combat game, a larger size is better of course, but KoW seems to run pretty well at various sizes.

 Mezmaron wrote:
What are the approximate point values for the Starter Armies?

(Also, same question for the Mega Starter Armies....)

I hear most games are 1000 points minimum. I'm wondering if the Dwarf Starter army will get me there, and if not, how much more I would need to add (maybe just Blaine?).

At this point, I'm thinking of just pledging $51 for the Dwarf Starter Army, free shipping. I'm guessing you will still be able to download the 2nd Edition rulebook for free?

If not, I may pledge $100 and get the rulebooks, counters, Blaine, and Dwarf Start Army.

Thanks - Mez

 Daedleh wrote:
Mega Armies
Undead - 795
Elves - 1190
Dwarfs - 1175
Orcs - 715
Abyssal Dwarfs - 850
Goblins - 775
Basileans - 1130
Ogres 1115

Starter Armies
Undead - 305
Dwarf - 640
Elves - 770
Orcs - 385
Abyssal Dwarfs - 405
Goblins - 325
Basileans - 520
Ogres - 520

^^ Should probably go in the OP. That's all nominal of course, it depends how you rank them up and what spells and such you buy for them.

The softcover version of the rulebook, or at least everything in it, will be in free pdfs on the Mantic site. The hardcover with all the fluff will almost certainly go digital too, but you'll have to pay for that one on Mantic Digital or DrivethruRPG.

No, seriously, Deadleh, ScarletSquig, anyone else with a connection to Mantic: get someone to buy, beg, borrow or steal copies of these fine books (and maybe these ones too) for your concept artist and get him to rework that dorkosaur. It's maybe just a step or two above the drakons, from where I'm sitting.
Tell him to ignore those Parka Blog ads promising to teach the secrets of drawing Power Girl's boobs, too. He's had enough of that kind of instruction already, from the looks of things. The KoW art direction is increasingly looking like 'Warhammer as seen by Rob Liefeld', and it's drilling a hole through my brain.

(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)

After having a skim through the KoW 1st ed rules, can anyone tell me what changes to expect in KoW 2nd ed rules please?

 Vermis wrote:
No, seriously, Deadleh, ScarletSquig, anyone else with a connection to Mantic: get someone to buy, beg, borrow or steal copies of these fine books (and maybe these ones too) for your concept artist and get him to rework that dorkosaur. It's maybe just a step or two above the drakons, from where I'm sitting.
Tell him to ignore those Parka Blog ads promising to teach the secrets of drawing Power Girl's boobs, too. He's had enough of that kind of instruction already, from the looks of things. The KoW art direction is increasingly looking like 'Warhammer as seen by Rob Liefeld', and it's drilling a hole through my brain.

(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)

That would be Heath Foley, who does a lot of Mantic's concept art.

In response to my earlier comment, what I mean was the AlexHolker seemed to be stating that they would be another core troop within the Basilean faction that would work in place of MAA, rather than looking at historical alternatives.

Somehow, I'm predicting the answer will be sisterhood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
After having a skim through the KoW 1st ed rules, can anyone tell me what changes to expect in KoW 2nd ed rules please?

True line of sight is being replaced by abstract.

Unit commands are gone.

You can now charge normally, or any unit that charged you (including flanks and rear)

Game-wide rebalancing of points, and in some cases, stats, Also, possibly new units.

 Vermis wrote:


(Oh, and scythes aren't just wide pointy axes, either. Ironically the weapon in the stretch goal silhouette shown earlier looks more like an axe than what the Mantic orcs are carrying...)

I... what weapon are you talking about? None of them have a scythe in the text. If you mean the Lower Abyssal, the weapon he's got looks a lot like an asian style sickle, which to me suits the aesthetic. Plus there's a bunch of axe, sword and all sorts of options underneath, and I imagine at least some of those will make the sprue. The abyssal champion too, just his is more oversized.

 sukura636 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
After having a skim through the KoW 1st ed rules, can anyone tell me what changes to expect in KoW 2nd ed rules please?

True line of sight is being replaced by abstract.

Unit commands are gone.

You can now charge normally, or any unit that charged you (including flanks and rear)

Game-wide rebalancing of points, and in some cases, stats, Also, possibly new units.

I'm in favour of every one of these.

Additionally, cavalry will now act more like they do in Warhammer, getting a bonus when they charge rather than all the time.

War machines toned down and made less random, ranged infantry boosted a little.

Lots of blanket changes that affect every army, so all points will be reworked and rebalanced.

I've added the points values to the OP