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 GrimDork wrote:
But if there was a single screening unit covering say half of the target, but you had enough range/ room to get around it, that works?

So something like this
.........|target| ..............|screen| ,.......|you 100mm|
after you charge would look like this
..........|target| ..|you 100mm|.|screen|


Since you need LOS to charge someone, then a better screen would be
.........|target| .........|screen| ,.......|you 100mm|
You can't even see Target, so your only charge option would be the Screen.

so, let's set up this situation with units.

You = heavy knight cavalry badasses
Screen = cheap troop of lameo infantry armed with flyswatters
Target = heavy elite infantry with great weapons and magic item giving +1 to hit or some other uber junk

easy tactics in this case might be

You are now in a position where, do you charge the Screen? You'll probably kill them, leaving you open to a countercharge next turn by Target elite uber dudes. Or do you not charge, and then next turn either
a) Screen charges you, or
b) Screen executes an Advance and turns 90 and walks out of the way of Target, then Target charges You.


See?

This brings us into other sweet sidestep tactics, such as
........|target| ..|screen|....|screen| ,.......|you 100mm|
Since You can't fit inbetween Screens to hit juicy Target, you either charge a Screen, leave them be, etc. But if you don't then your enemy can Sidestep a Screen on his turn (half move, strafing left or right), opening the gap so the he declares simultaneous charge with Target uber elites and the non-sidestepping Screen against You.
And if your opponent anticipates you charging a Screen, he can have his Screens positioned at slight 30-45 degree angles, so if you charge a Screen and don't defeat it, the other Screen can get a flank charge; or if you Charge a Screen and do defeat it, you'll use your free movement to rotate in place to make sure your frontage is facing the Screen and Target, but then You will get double charged next turn.

(IE, how to defend against and defeat an all-cav army)

Sweet, thanks for that You might consider a quick copy-paste into Mr. Souzas thread in the mantic forums, stuff like that has to be helpful to us new players!

What?

Smart positional play and good interaction between units can defeat an uber point sink unit of doom?

Stop the madness!

Over 50% of Kings of War is about maneuvering. Blindly sending your units forward and attempting to rely on magic or monsters will get you murdered post-haste. For example, since monsters are on square bases (usually 50x50), it actually makes it easier to get flank charges on them versus trying to flank a normal wide-frontage/shallow-depth unit. Oh, big mean Giant, eh? Well, even a dinky old unit can wreck a monster's day by slamming him in the flank.

Exactly my point.

Makes a refreshing change from WFB's concept of "sink enough points into a thing and win" units.

Much more like Warmaster in that regard.

Well, like the game I watched earlier this week, it is REALLY obvious to a new player that this game is emphasized in the maneuver/order phase, and I LOVE that as it should be what tactical war-gaming needs to be about.

I feel like Warmahordes is another game of inches/measurement, but that game just ends up feeling so "super serious" to me that I personally just cannot enjoy it (despite being invested in four armies with 100pts+ of each)

I'm a big fan of the tactical manuvering in KoW. The only other game I played where manuvering felt this important was BattleFleet Gothic.

I haven't gotten to play it yet, but i'm cautiously hoping Planetfall from Spartan has a similar feel. I know flanking and arcs do play a big part in it.

A metal siege engine? That's a good idea...for a masochist.


And leave the Basilean visors alone! They worked really hard to look distinctive, and that's all they got. Unless you count the silly feather.

But really, how can you not love a block of smug infantry that all say "deal with it"?

 Alex C wrote:

Makes a refreshing change from WFB's concept of "sink enough points into a thing and win" units.

As a Dwarf player I love it when people sink tonnes of points into single units.

 Denilsta wrote:


This. I really want to get into the game and almost did in the last KS.....but the miniatures and concept art just keeps putting me off. I keep hearing how good the rules are and the game play video in the KS itself looks good, but I cannot think of a single army where at least half the range does not want me to gauge my eyes out with a wooden spoon. I could use proxies from another range but it does defeat the point of KoW being an affordable mass unit game.

With respect, I think this exactly the wrong perspective to bring to a game like KoW. If you're dealing with a game like Warmachine where there is a set tournament scene that requires same-brand minis, then you have to like the whole package. If you only game at a GW store, then you should probably stick with 40k rules and minis.

However, with a game like KoW, it's best to approach the minis and rules as separate entities, each to be judged on their own merit. AFAIK, most Mantic tourneys don't require Mantic armies except to qualify for best painted. If you like the rules, use them, if you like the figs use them. If you like the rules but not figs, use different figs. If you like figs, but not rules, then find other rules. I really like the rules, but the Mantic faction I like best is in a material I don't. No matter, I use the game with different figs, and really enjoy it and if the faction gets made in hard plastic, I'll buy them then. In the mean time I'm having a ball with a brilliantly written ruleset and figures of my choosing.

Obviously there's alot to be said for the figs you play with to match the pictures in the fluff, but I think many gamers would have more satisfying experiences if they stopped limiting their own choices and were open to the idea of separately choosing the minis and rules that they found most appealing. From my perspective as someone with less gaming time than I'd like, life's too short to game with figures, rules or people that you don't like.

Oh, my, the angles on that drawing are really bad.

 Eilif wrote:

 Denilsta wrote:


This. I really want to get into the game and almost did in the last KS.....but the miniatures and concept art just keeps putting me off. I keep hearing how good the rules are and the game play video in the KS itself looks good, but I cannot think of a single army where at least half the range does not want me to gauge my eyes out with a wooden spoon. I could use proxies from another range but it does defeat the point of KoW being an affordable mass unit game.

With respect, I think this exactly the wrong perspective to bring to a game like KoW. If you're dealing with a game like Warmachine where there is a set tournament scene that requires same-brand minis, then you have to like the whole package. If you only game at a GW store, then you should probably stick with 40k rules and minis.

However, with a game like KoW, it's best to approach the minis and rules as separate entities, each to be judged on their own merit. AFAIK, most Mantic tourneys don't require Mantic armies except to qualify for best painted. If you like the rules, use them, if you like the figs use them. If you like the rules but not figs, use different figs. If you like figs, but not rules, then find other rules. I really like the rules, but the Mantic faction I like best is in a material I don't. No matter, I use the game with different figs, and really enjoy it and if the faction gets made in hard plastic, I'll buy them then. In the mean time I'm having a ball with a brilliantly written ruleset and figures of my choosing.

Obviously there's alot to be said for the figs you play with to match the pictures in the fluff, but I think many gamers would have more satisfying experiences if they stopped limiting their own choices and were open to the idea of separately choosing the minis and rules that they found most appealing. From my perspective as someone with less gaming time than I'd like, life's too short to game with figures, rules or people that you don't like.

I completely agree, but I am a more unique situation, I started collecting GW pre slotted but stopped and sold all of my huge armies when my first child came along 8 years ago (plus was very disillusioned with GW). I'm more of a painter collector these days but I do miss the play of large battles, so I am effectively starting from scratch.
To start a whole new GW army to uses as better looking KoW proxies is just to expensive and as much as I want to I could never use figures like the KoW Elven Dragon riders, goblin Gerbil riders or the panther riders that look like the victims of a mad taxidermist. There are some good looking models in their ranges but they are so damn inconsistent. I might just pledge for the rule book and see how it goes from there. There is also a chance Mantic may update their range in future...

If the Mantic models do little or nothing for you overall (and that's understandable) I'd probably look into a second-hand WHFB army. - unless you were interested in Undead, which are Mantic's strongest range.

Or, if you wanted to use Kingdoms of Men - or use the loose allies system to have a large KoM contingent - then the world('s recent glut of plastic historicals) is/are your oyster.

Don't forget the world of excellent metal historical models, which aren't as expensive as some people may think.

I'm half tempted to get the rules and go 15mm for cheap huge battles. Still undecided on the rules though. :-P

Zond wrote:
I'm half tempted to get the rules and go 15mm for cheap huge battles. Still undecided on the rules though. :-P

Zond wrote:
I'm half tempted to get the rules and go 15mm for cheap huge battles. Still undecided on the rules though. :-P

I have fairly limited experience, but the bigger the battle the better KOW plays. I think there are some people playing it at 15mm, they changed inches into cms in the rules.

two points:

the visors do not make sense from a protective standpoint. this is fantasy however, and things don't have to make sense.


For those talking about smaller scales, I have several 6mm kings of war armies.

Where are you sourcing your 6mm figs from?

 Alpharius wrote:
Where are you sourcing your 6mm figs from?

Microworld games

 Alex C wrote:

Zond wrote:
I'm half tempted to get the rules and go 15mm for cheap huge battles. Still undecided on the rules though. :-P

Try "KoW in 28mm? Too pricey, time-consuming and space inefficient."

 lord marcus wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Where are you sourcing your 6mm figs from?

Microworld games

Microworld is great. I especially like their Dark Elves

 lord marcus wrote:
two points:

the visors do not make sense from a protective standpoint. this is fantasy however, and things don't have to make sense.


For those talking about smaller scales, I have several 6mm kings of war armies.

The metal bikini chicks of the world would argue that protection is in the eye of the wearer

After the last KoW kickstarter, I was left feeling rather annoyed with how the miniatures turned out, so I can definitely understand how you feel in regards to using them for your forces.

But as everyone else has said, there are a plethora of different companies out there offering armies that go for a lot cheaper than GW. Hell, even if you shop around you can buy a lot of GW LotR stuff for really low prices now GW seems set to finish up with it once the Hobbit is all done and dusted. I bought 25 full LotR goblin sprues for $50 off ebay, which is enough to make a hell of a lot of units of goblin rabble, sharpsticks and spitters. Looking elsewhere I found that 1/72 plastic orc wargs are perfect as cheap fleabag riders. Everything else can be improvised, and very cheaply. D&D pre-painted miniatures can help you out with larger stuff if you want to be thematic about it too.

I also have put together a Twilight Kin list using GW Mordor and Isengard units, which will be a combined force under Sauron as either an Abyssal Fiend, or Death Stalker Simulacre. Then there's something else I am working on which uses the Elves (both Rivendell and Lothlorien) as a KoM force, with potential additional troops that uses Rohan, Easterling and Harad miniatures, and in a setting that's not LotR. And as an added bonus they could also be used to proxy Elves and Twilight Kin as well if I so desire.

KoM is so flexible you could use miniatures from tons of manufacturers to represent Dark Ages Celts and Saxons, Romans, Samurai, Middle Ages factions from pretty much anywhere, all the way into the Renaissance with Pike and Shot units. And if their units aren't what you like, choose another faction and have your units 'count as' something you do like.

This is the thing I love about KoM in comparison to Warhammer. Warhammer is fairly strict, with you wanting to have units which at least look somewhat like what you want to be using them as. Plus special rules and the like make them have a very distinct flavour to them. KoW on the other hand is a lot wider in scope, and with a ton of choices, allowing you to choose exactly what force you want to field, and how they look when you do. Fight stoneage clubweilding cavemen with wooly mammoths and other prehistoric creatures as stand in Orcs one game, and the next it's Renaissance era dudes aiming a musket at you while blocks of impenetrable pikes stand in your way.

Once Mantic has got it into their head that quality will beat quantity every single time (or at least quality that's good enough to stand next to other suppliers like Perry in terms of detail and design, despite them not being everyone's cup of tea), then they're really going to take off. Get some awesome solid designs down of a multitude of fantasy units and people are going to come flocking. Unfortunately, they still seem to be stuck with the same bad design ideas as before, and this will hinder their progress. I still own a ton of their Undead, and have plans for that too, it's just going to take time for them to catch up with some of the other players out there.

Denilsta wrote:
I completely agree, but I am a more unique situation, I started collecting GW pre slotted but stopped and sold all of my huge armies when my first child came along 8 years ago (plus was very disillusioned with GW). I'm more of a painter collector these days but I do miss the play of large battles, so I am effectively starting from scratch.
To start a whole new GW army to uses as better looking KoW proxies is just to expensive and as much as I want to I could never use figures like the KoW Elven Dragon riders, goblin Gerbil riders or the panther riders that look like the victims of a mad taxidermist. There are some good looking models in their ranges but they are so damn inconsistent. I might just pledge for the rule book and see how it goes from there. There is also a chance Mantic may update their range in future...

I see, that does put you in a tough situation. Building any KoW or WHFB sized army is a quite big proposition no matter which brand of minis you use. There are alot of other manufactures of fantasy miniatures out there, but some are a bit obscure. Let me know what kind of army you'd like to see and I'll see what I can find for you.

Azazelx wrote:If the Mantic models do little or nothing for you overall (and that's understandable) I'd probably look into a second-hand WHFB army. - unless you were interested in Undead, which are Mantic's strongest range.

This is actually a great suggestion. I see second hand WHFB armies at good bargains quite regularly.

Riquende wrote:Or, if you wanted to use Kingdoms of Men - or use the loose allies system to have a large KoM contingent - then the world('s recent glut of plastic historicals) is/are your oyster.

RobertsMinis wrote:Don't forget the world of excellent metal historical models, which aren't as expensive as some people may think.

Two other great suggestions. Many historical metals are less than $2 each, and many can be $1 or less.. Most historical plastics are in the $0.60 to 1 buck range each.

Zond wrote:I'm half tempted to get the rules and go 15mm for cheap huge battles. Still undecided on the rules though. :-P

I think that -especially for older gamers- if you showed the KoW rules without the mention of base size or measurements, they'd assume that it is an element-based system designed for 6-15mm miniatures. KoW reads to me as a system with the kind of abstractions usually seen in smaller scaled games that has been scaled up to 28mm. Not a bad thing, in my book.

RobertsMinis wrote:
I have fairly limited experience, but the bigger the battle the better KOW plays. I think there are some people playing it at 15mm, they changed inches into cms in the rules.

That's my experience as well. You can have fun small battles, but the system really begins humming around 1200 points and above as you get more units on the board.

The Fires of the Abyss!

We’ve approached that magical time of the campaign – just 7 days remain until the end.

At midnight 1st December the campaign comes to a halt. It’s set to be an exciting end to the campaign – especially as we’ll have a few surprises this week along the way to make it fun and enjoyable as we knock over stretch goal after stretch goal

And we've started the week in style, funding the sculpting and production of the Basilean Heavy Arbalest, which we’ve now included free in the Basilean Mega-Starter Army. You can also add on additional Heavy Arbalests for $15.



Next up we’re on to the Abyssal Iffrit magic-caster for the Forces of the Abyss.



And then? Well, we’re going to take a walk on the wildside…

NEW! BONUS: $220,000 – Forest Shamblers

When the Elves of the Glades go to war, even the forests themselves animate. These ogre-sized creatures are lumbering and implacable, able to crush smaller opponents with a single blow. Often their slowness is mistaken for stupidity by the lesser races, but this could not be further from the truth – Shamblers think at the same pace as the trees around them – and when you are a walking tree, speed is not of the essence.



Excitingly, the Forest Shamblers not only fit into the Elf Force List, they’re also the first unit for the Forces of Nature army – a hint of things to come before the end perhaps?

If we hit this stretch goal, we will sculpt and produce a set of Forest Shamblers – which can be fielded by any Good or Neutral aligned army, including the Elves and the Forces of Nature.

With this goal broken, we will include a set of metal 3 Forest Shamblers in the Elf Mega-Starter Army ($100). You can include this Mega-Starter Army in a pledge of God of War ($150) and Early Bird) or add one on to your existing pledges.

You can also add on a set of the Forest Shamblers for $15 to your pledge.



Want more for the Forces of Nature? Please help us spread the word!

And finally…

Ronnie has gotten a busier than usual week ahead of him as he will be a special guest on Forja y Desven TV tomorrow night and Chilling Wargamers on Wednesday evening.

Not only that but he’s doing a live chat on the Mantic Facebook page tomorrow at 7:00pm GMT.

And after all that, he’s then travelling to Ireland to film the Weekender for Beasts of War.

So stay tuned and keep an eye out for Mr Renton spilling the beans on all things Kings of War (and probably some DreadBall as well…)

Those Forest Shamblers seem excellent value. I'm in for a couple.

5 dollars for a metal ogre-sized model? Yeah that's not bad. A basic ogre regiment for $15 isn't bad at all. The elf army is really starting to get bulky with the extra character and now another blog of ogre quality troops, and they were already leading or close to leading the pack at points for money.

I guess soul reavers being really high points cost helps out the undead quite a bit too.

Hoping for some larger abyssals to get added