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I'll be intrigued to see how big the fiend ends up being

and hope that it get enough pre-orders in the pledge manager so it does not end up as metal otherwise it will be horrible to build.

Metal wings, no thank you, they're always trouble even with pinning

Demon looks good, and so does the elemental. The centaur? Tiny legs has mutated in to tiny horse syndrome. I really hope we get to see some new concept art with decent proportions.

 Eilif wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Giant metal models + pinning makes my heart hurt.

I HATED putting together many of my metal Jacks and the wife's Beasts for Warmahordes. As such, I both hope the Greater Elemental is huge, for aesthetic and cool table presence for KOW, and yet cringe at the thought of putting it together.

I wonder when I see folks saying this, "Have they ever tried epoxy?". As long as the connection point isnt too small, I've found that some 2 part epoxy is just wonderful and darn near bombproof for assembling metal models. It gives a much stronger bond and not nearly as brittle as superglue. You have to find a way to support or clamp the models for about 5 minutes or so while it dries, but that's pretty easy. I use so much epoxy for models and terrain now that I buy it in bottles instead of the little dual-plunger dispensers.

As for warjacks, I can't speak for other factions, but I just assembled 2 plastic and 4 metal Khador Warjacks (For Kings of War appropriately enough…) in one sitting.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/11/more-reinforcements-knights-and.html
They were dead simple to assemble and no pinning necessary for a rock solid attachment. The plastic ones were more customizable and didn't require epoxy, but when it comes to ease of filing, scraping, sanding, etc, I'll take metal over plasti-resin any day.

The metal Angelius is a large, metal dragon snake that balances on its tail... whose connection-point is maybe 1mm wide. Its absurd crap for pinning, gluing or anything else. :-p

Meanwhile, happier topic... Did anyone else enjoy a little snicker when the description for the Abyssal Fiend talked about how they are... *ahem* demonic princes? ;-)

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Giant metal models + pinning makes my heart hurt.

I HATED putting together many of my metal Jacks and the wife's Beasts for Warmahordes. As such, I both hope the Greater Elemental is huge, for aesthetic and cool table presence for KOW, and yet cringe at the thought of putting it together.

Spoiler:

I wonder when I see folks saying this, "Have they ever tried epoxy?". As long as the connection point isnt too small, I've found that some 2 part epoxy is just wonderful and darn near bombproof for assembling metal models. It gives a much stronger bond and not nearly as brittle as superglue. You have to find a way to support or clamp the models for about 5 minutes or so while it dries, but that's pretty easy. I use so much epoxy for models and terrain now that I buy it in bottles instead of the little dual-plunger dispensers.

As for warjacks, I can't speak for other factions, but I just assembled 2 plastic and 4 metal Khador Warjacks (For Kings of War appropriately enough…) in one sitting.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/11/more-reinforcements-knights-and.html
They were dead simple to assemble and no pinning necessary for a rock solid attachment. The plastic ones were more customizable and didn't require epoxy, but when it comes to ease of filing, scraping, sanding, etc, I'll take metal over plasti-resin any day.

The metal Angelius is a large, metal dragon snake that balances on its tail... whose connection-point is maybe 1mm wide. Its absurd crap for pinning, gluing or anything else. :-p

Oh, man, I just looked that up and it looks like all kinds of unpleasantness. Hope it worked out for you in the end. I assume you went with one long pin into the base?

 Tyr13 wrote:
What, usually people complain about those tiny legs... and now you complain about giant hooves?! D:

All you have to do is get the ratios right. Hooves get a little bit wider than the lower leg. Not turn into ground pounding mallets. Look at Mierce's or Rackham's models with hooves to see it done right.

I'm hoping the greater golem/elemental ends up in plastic (restic). The lesser golems were great, and it's pretty much more of the same (but bigger).

Really hoping all the larger stuff ends up in anything besides metal.

Maybe Mantic would consider doing some sort of poll or getting feedback from outside HQ about what to cast those things in.

Even though I already ordered a bunch of demons from Troll Outpost when they did their KS, and I'll probably end up getting some more Fiends from Darklands, I still wouldn't mind a few extra big demons to kick all the little ones around.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Really hoping all the larger stuff ends up in anything besides metal.

Maybe Mantic would consider doing some sort of poll or getting feedback from outside HQ about what to cast those things in.

This - I'm so over metal for anything that isn't a character model. I'm not a big fan of PVC - but I'd much prefer it over metal for stuff like big ogre models and war machines and whatnot. (I also think PVC could be a viable medium if companies continued to work with it/improve it). All the metal in this KS left me cold.

Schmapdi wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Really hoping all the larger stuff ends up in anything besides metal.

Maybe Mantic would consider doing some sort of poll or getting feedback from outside HQ about what to cast those things in.

This - I'm so over metal for anything that isn't a character model. I'm not a big fan of PVC - but I'd much prefer it over metal for stuff like big ogre models and war machines and whatnot. (I also think PVC could be a viable medium if companies continued to work with it/improve it). All the metal in this KS left me cold.

Has Mantic ever done anything with PVC? Though there are issues with small minis and parts, my large Reaper Bones monsters in PVC are quite nice. PVC could be a good option for any of the larger mantic monsters. Reaper has suggested that it is expensive to make the molds for PVC figures, but I've no idea what other options there are for molding them.

Though as I've said before, Plastic is ideal, but I'll take Metal, Resin or PVC over Restic.

Mantic has to continue to improve or more importantly, move away from, restic.

A somewhat middling campaign here on this one will hopefully be further impetus for them to do so.

After the highs of Deadzone, and then the lows when everyone received their restic...stuff, well, Mantic's KS haven't done as well.

They've done OK, to be sure, and some of it might be the whole SF vs. Fantasy thing.

But Mantic has a real opportunity to step up and become a solid contender on all fronts.

Invest in good concept artists, a coherent style and theme (and lose the stumpy legs!), good and consistent sculptors, QC and hard plastic already!

 Eilif wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Really hoping all the larger stuff ends up in anything besides metal.

Maybe Mantic would consider doing some sort of poll or getting feedback from outside HQ about what to cast those things in.

I thought Restic was PVC...

I can only speak for myself, but I have had very few problems with Restic. Also, I find Mantic's metal models to be as good as anything I've gotten in metal from GW. I'm looking forward to seeing how these new minis turn out.

I think part of what elevated the total for deadzone was the triple threat too.

Scifi skirmish wargame? Check.
Hard plastic modular scenery? Check.
Tie ins to Warpath for diehard fans? Check.

You had people backing it for the token pledge, the complete package, largely for terrain, to harvest specific factions to build armies, etc etc.

Dreadball xtreme was a sports game with limited crossover, and people weren't sure about the material since MA hadn't hit. MA well, I think it had some big competitors out at the same time and the IP itself was almost a little niche, a lot of people like Mars Attacks but only so many. Plus the whole bloodshed on the battlefield and alien abduction shenanigans. I think those two also took a hit from KS burnout and overdrawing from a depleted source, a lot of backers for all of the campaigns have been with all or most of them, and they only have so much money.

Dungeon saga was a big hit but then that one pushed a lot of buttons for a lot of people too.

I don't really think any of these smaller kickstarters have really been anything but successful, they could have generated more funds but it wasn't really necessary either.

Seems like keeping some of them smaller isn't a bad thing anyway, should lessen the strain of fulfillment somewhat?

 Alpharius wrote:

A somewhat middling campaign here on this one will hopefully be further impetus for them to do so.

I honestly don't think they planned it to be very big, otherwise it would have been longer with more reveals. It looks like they had run out of stretch goals by the centaur.
The obvious move with this was to a) fund the 2nd edition and b) raise more awareness. The side benefits of hard plastic troops for two new armies are mainly benefits.
I'm a fan of Mantic when they do stuff right, and I was only in for $50. I might add stuff in the pledge manager, but for me, the benefit is an already fantastic ruleset becoming refined - and hopefully some more players joining the fold.

Keep in mind we have no idea how much will be spent on the pledge manager. 99% of what I spent on the last two Mantic Kickstarters was in the pledge manager phase.

I wonder how faithful they are on the whole 'pledge manager unlocks' thing. As in, do they just keep unlocking everything that got missed, and then start drawing up concepts for things they wanted to unlock if it "went big" or "went stupid big", or do they just decide jobs a good 'un and bank the difference? Not that I'd expect anything untoward... just wonder if they'd really beat a dead horse with more development if they were actually done.

Schmapdi wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Really hoping all the larger stuff ends up in anything besides metal.

Maybe Mantic would consider doing some sort of poll or getting feedback from outside HQ about what to cast those things in.

This - I'm so over metal for anything that isn't a character model. I'm not a big fan of PVC - but I'd much prefer it over metal for stuff like big ogre models and war machines and whatnot. (I also think PVC could be a viable medium if companies continued to work with it/improve it). All the metal in this KS left me cold.

^This. As much as restic is a PITA, I'd rather have units of infantry and large infantry in restic than metal.

 Alpharius wrote:

After the highs of Deadzone, and then the lows when everyone received their restic...stuff, well, Mantic's KS haven't done as well.

Just because you keep repeating the same nonsense doesn't make it true.

Also, put me in the restic-over-metal-for-large-things basket. Or even resin - I can't imagine how few they'd have sold and how difficult they'd be to work with if the Striders, Iron Ancestor and Stuntbot had come in metal instead of restic and resin respectively.

And yes, restic is PVC, 'boardgae plastic' is PVC and Bonesium is PVC, just different recipes searching for different final properties in each case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Keep in mind we have no idea how much will be spent on the pledge manager. 99% of what I spent on the last two Mantic Kickstarters was in the pledge manager phase.

Just the $1 backers bumping up to the rulebook pledge level in the PM adds a little over $20k, let alone going to the next level plus other add ons across the board.

Super annoying that the "$1" pledge had a mandatory shipping fee of $5. Wtf Mantic?

If you changed your delivery country to US or United Kingdom you only had to pay $1.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

After the highs of Deadzone, and then the lows when everyone received their restic...stuff, well, Mantic's KS haven't done as well.

Just because you keep repeating the same nonsense doesn't make it true.

Wait, Alph doesn't like restic?



Azazelx hates it more though...

Personally I have no issue with it, and I suspect most don't judging by the retail success of Deadzone and Dreadball. Still, squeaky wheels and all that...

I'm happy with how the KS has gone overall.

Would have been nice to see a little more focus on a single army, though.

Nature is the army I will be picking and like the most, but I would have rather seen no Nature minis at all and have the Abyssal army get 4 HIPS kits and maybe some pre-assembled plastic monsters rather than half-completing two new armies.

I feel like doing one army really properly is what Mantic needs at the moment, a new flagship range that competes properly with what GW produces. Having Lower Abyssals, Succubi, Abyssal Warriors and Tortured Souls in HIPS would have resulted in a very impressive new looking army.

Hopefully this sort of mini-kickstarter becomes a regular yearly thing for Mantic and KoW, fantasy mass battle does get less cash than other genres, but theres still enough financial support there to at least get a new HIPS kit out every 2 months I think.

I'm fine with restic, never really had any problem with it.

Schmapdi wrote:

I thought Restic was PVC...

NTRabbit wrote:
And yes, restic is PVC, 'boardgae plastic' is PVC and Bonesium is PVC, just different recipes searching for different final properties in each case.

From what I've heard, Restic is indeed a PVC of some sort. However, when using the term among gamers, "PVC" is usually referring to the softer material found in Bones and prepainted clix figures. Restic or Plastic/resin

Though technically correct to call them all "PVC", there's really no reason to do so and muddy the waters when there are already separate accepted terms for the materials.

"Everything is fine! Nothing is broken!" comes to mind!

I think it is OK to point out that Mantic needs to up their game in terms of materials, art direction, concept art to miniature and QC.

GW is seriously stumbling in terms of WFB these days, and there's never been a better time to grab that part of the market from them.

I hear the KoW rules are quite good - now Mantic needs to get the miniatures to match as well.

I like their orc line(my army for KOW) and their undead (brother in laws) as well. I'm not a fan of the dwarf figures for some reason, but there's nothing holding people back from trying the game with the free online rules. At that point it really becomes "So you WANT to pay crazy amounts for GW products and have rules arguements all the time?"

Elves are nice as well, except for the Derpy Drakkons.

The forces of nature army just doesn't look cohesive enough to me. They have flaming lizards, water elves, walking trees and PETA's worst nightmare (Druid chick).

To me the forces of nature should be like the chaos gods of Warhammer. Each aspect having its rivals: water-fire, wind-earth etc. you should be able to field mono nature pyromaniac armies or all water armies, or all living armies (treeman, dryads, centaurs). Or build the army as a joint nature versus people doing bad things army.

I'm not a fan of the rock monster or even the new art for it that they just unlocked.

I ended up giving this one a miss; just too much stuff already out in KS land to give out yet more money sight-unseen. With Star Wars Armada poised to take a huge bite out of my hobby money in the early part of next year as well, just couldn't find the space for it during the holidays.

On the other hand, I might have been tempted into picking up both of the new armies if they had more of the "soft" stuff better fleshed out prior to the campaign; I don't have enough trust in Mantic, especially on the KoW front, to go off of concept art. I want renders at a minimum, as those have translated reasonably well. I might still pick them up at retail, so I'll still keep an eye on the progress here.

$100 KoW2 Abyssal Mega Starter + $100 Dungeon Saga Infernal Crypts x4 + $100 Dungeon Saga

107 Lower Abysssals/Magi (80/24/3)
10 Gargoyles
49 Succubi (40/8/1)
12 Molochs (3/8/1)
1 Abyssal Champion (1/-/-)
9 Abyssal Warriors (-/8/1)
10 Abyssal Iffrit (1/8/1)
9 Tortures Souls (-/8/1)
9 Hell Hounds (-/8/1)
4 Drech'Nok (-/4/-)

 Theophony wrote:

Elves are nice as well, except for the Derpy Drakkons.

Yeah I can't defend that bit of the Elves, the Drakkons are pretty bad

The forces of nature army just doesn't look cohesive enough to me. They have flaming lizards, water elves, walking trees and PETA's worst nightmare (Druid chick).

To me the forces of nature should be like the chaos gods of Warhammer. Each aspect having its rivals: water-fire, wind-earth etc. you should be able to field mono nature pyromaniac armies or all water armies, or all living armies (treeman, dryads, centaurs). Or build the army as a joint nature versus people doing bad things army.

I'm not a fan of the rock monster or even the new art for it that they just unlocked.

That was the problem with only half the Nature army getting funded out - with the current army list you could (almost) make element themed armies.

Water: Naiads, Water Elementals
Fire: Salamanders, Fire Elementals
Air: Sylvan Kin, Air Elementals
Earth: Gnomes, Earth Elementals, Forest Shamblers, Basilisks, Greater Earth Elemental

They still have the other 3 greater elementals and all 4 regular elementals to do, gnomes for basic earth troops, plus Centaurs as non-themed cavalry, and then would need something akin to the Shamblers/Basilisks for the other three elements.

Don't forget the salamanders can go in an Abyssal force giving it three plastic sprues from this ks. I just wish the hellhounds had been a goal too.

I wouldn't be surprised that if the Naiads sell well, we will perhaps see them develop into a faction on their own.