Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Everyone keeps saying take grav weapons, is there an errata somewhere that adds grav weapons to my codex? I'm Dark Angels, so no grav weapons or centurions.

I really don't see Riptides as being terribly overpowered (the Yvarha maybe, because it has far too many special rules and unlike a standard riptide cover is useless), but my standard army is not designed to take them on.

I might look at getting some drop pods, but again I don't feel like being the one that tailors specifically to deal with riptides and not be prepared to take on any other army.

Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

You gotta' be joking. He said that? Whuuuut the F...

That is a hilariously stupid thing to say. Now theresa new category of player called Tryhard? Ha! Boy am I in trouble.

For the ork player, he needs to invest in some speed by the sounds of it. trukk rush, with stormboys and bikers, all with a powerklaw in there, will kill a riptide. so he'll squish a few boys, but then the boys will chip off a wound or two, then the powerklaw swings. chances are he'll lose combat, and the nobs I3 might even get you an overrun.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Everyone keeps saying take grav weapons, is there an errata somewhere that adds grav weapons to my codex? I'm Dark Angels, so no grav weapons or centurions.

I really don't see Riptides as being terribly overpowered (the Yvarha maybe, because it has far too many special rules and unlike a standard riptide cover is useless), but my standard army is not designed to take them on.

I might look at getting some drop pods, but again I don't feel like being the one that tailors specifically to deal with riptides and not be prepared to take on any other army.

Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

You have twinlinked Plasma Talons? Use those instead of Grav.

Kholzerino wrote:
There is a list of stuff above, Mr Omega. Its tricky because the assumption is that a take all comers list will have things that can deal with Monstrous Creatures the same as fliers, hordes, high AV and all of the other scissors, paper, stone options. One way of being hard to beat at 40k is to take a list that contains so many of these one elements that it becomes overwhelming for a TAC list to deal with.

Riptide spam
Wave Serpent spam
Flier Spam
Flying monstrous creature spam

Yet none of these are tournament winning lists at the moment. A good Imperial Army utilising the allies table effectively will be able to deal with any of these options. A straightforward, no-combo HQ, 3 troops, 2 heavy support dull list will not.

The reason that Tau players are saying that Riptides aren't overpowered is because no one has been winning at tournaments with Riptide spam for the last year. Certainly not in seventh.

Grav centurions, grav bikers and melta drop pod lists are very, very powerful against this army (even with all the EWO) and Imperial Psychers can wreck it too.

And imperial psychers are EVEN MORE POWERFUL away from tournaments. Because they have great access to Invisibility, which negates almost all of the worrying aspects of any Tau army, as well as psychic shriek, which will deplete Riptides all day long.

There are now plenty of specific ways offered up in this thread for dealing with Riptides.

I wasn't exactly claiming that Riptide spam as a list archetype was overpowered at the highest level, though it perhaps is at lower levels, even those firmly in the zone of semi-competitive/competitive environments if played by someone who knows what they are doing, facing someone without the hindsight or luck to take the critical bit extra anti-riptide.

My favourite Tau poster will now sneer down his nose and attempt to discount all I've said as he has before just because I made that point of considering the lower levels of play. Shame.

Secondly, one overpowered unit does not an unbeatable/broken army make, as I briefly touched on in my post you quoted, which is why, in combination with even more broken units appearing (Screamerstars, Wave Serpents, Seerstars and the like all levelled the playing field by being more broken), people aren't taking Riptide spam lists home with trophies anymore. Part of it is also historical given that the number of anti-riptide options has increased a bit since the dominance of Riptide spam even at top-level play.

The Riptide is undercosted; with the IA and EWO, I honestly think it should cost at minimum 220-230 points, given the combination of ridiculous durability, long range AP2 large blasts with massive LOS, Nova reactor, jetpack assault moves, the ability to smash any tank in melee, getting the secondary weapon just to rub things in, etc. If you can do math, that's about 30-40 points undercosted, which in the typical Riptide spam list is about a 90-160 point advantage.

Yes, there's Grav Centurions and Grav Bikers, but what If I don't want to invest in those ugly fat ceramite teddy bears, or don't want to have to invest in an unappealing, boring, overused unit of Grav Bikers? You've given very little choice, and very little, if anything at all other than the difficult to use Libby comes close to the killing power of those units. It makes the game flat and dull. The existence of one unit in one army fundamentally changes the format of every single list. The reason I've mainly played IG since Codex Riptides is because I felt they were better equipped to deal with them with Vendettas, Plasma Vets and Executioners. Even today, my standard list almost always has Executioners and Vendettas, and if I'm feeling really daring, I won't take melta/plasma vets.

Imperial Psykers are massively overrated. Massively. IG Psykers don't even get all that Telepathy jazz without taking a level 1 Astropath in maybe one CCS (the other HQ is always Pask, because how else will I have enough to deal with Riptide spam?) and that's ridiculously awkward and restrictive when it boils down to it, and ultimately not a good plan. Inquisitors can take Telepathy, but they're still only Lvl1, at the highest level they cut off any other allies in some tournaments, and the prospect itself is ultimately underwhelming.

Even if you try going that route, what happens when you come up against a list that out-psykers you and renders your investment in that phase basically meaningless, or far less effective and reliable? I've tried the divination drone a couple times and used the Astropath as an extra warp charge, which is alright but not quite carling.

General Orange wrote:1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Don't forget to turn them invisible.

kingbobbito wrote: He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

I'll say it.

Dudes a certified idiot.

It kinda sounds like the issue worked itself out. But if not

tell everyone to bring an army at the agreed upon point value and when you get together draw what army you use out of a hat.

Or you could try writing up a scenario and limit the units allowed that way or do a table setup in tunnels (underhive) which would make the Riptide far more manageable as he wouldn't be able to have the huge Lines of sight or the mobility.

Personally I enjoy the scenarios. It adds a lot to the game in my opinion and takes the monotony out of move shoot assault... the story becomes more important.

Could also say bring 2000pts and when you start tell them to put together 1000pts (no need to follow FOC) for that game and then next game they have to use what's left.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

Dou darn objective-grabbin' tryhards stop spoiling my triptide-hammer!1

That's the point of an objective game. You stop playing on the opponent's terms. His game is: "Come at my unkillable force and die to overwhelming firepower!" and when you didn't come, he had to adapt to it and go a bit tactical himself. Obviously, he couldn't. And did what every self-respecting TFG without a tiny bit of tactical approach would have done. Accused you of being TFG without a tiny bit of tactical approach.

Indeed. Winning does not necessarily involve killing the enemy, and nothing requires you to march slowly into the guns. You can put a decent showing against armies that you literally cannot hurt with most of your army, with a bit of thought - guard/tyranids with many small units against knights in objective games, for example.

You did well, especially because you went down the "I can win by playing better" rather than "omg I must tailor my list".

Many, many kudos.

Excellente!

Confirms what I've thought, not a person you want to be playing.

Again congratulations on the win. I can only imagine how salty he must have been

Who's a tryhard? What's a tryhard?

Kholzerino wrote:

Yet none of these are tournament winning lists at the moment. A good Imperial Army utilising the allies table effectively will be able to deal with any of these options. A straightforward, no-combo HQ, 3 troops, 2 heavy support dull list will not.

The reason that Tau players are saying that Riptides aren't overpowered is because no one has been winning at tournaments with Riptide spam for the last year. Certainly not in seventh.

Grav centurions, grav bikers and melta drop pod lists are very, very powerful against this army (even with all the EWO) and Imperial Psychers can wreck it too.

And imperial psychers are EVEN MORE POWERFUL away from tournaments. Because they have great access to Invisibility, which negates almost all of the worrying aspects of any Tau army, as well as psychic shriek, which will deplete Riptides all day long.

There are now plenty of specific ways offered up in this thread for dealing with Riptides.

See, this is the problem. When you have to specificially list-tailor to deal with a very common unit, it is overpowered. I've seen this attitude before from tournament gamers: "Take X and Y and Z and you're fine, stop whining". But most casual players don't have X and Y and they may have only limited access to Z. I for example play Deathwing, I don't have grav guns or Centurions, I can take max. 1 Psycher which is much easier to kill for Tau player than Riptide is for me. Pretty much only thing which I could do is a melta Veteran Drop pod strike, but even that is very uncertain, and at any rate, I don't have Drop pods atm because they're b*tch to build and paint.

Riptide and units like it (like say, 5th edition Nob Bikers) are overpowered because they are so durable against most common weapons people take to their armies. Say you build your army and figure "hmm, I need some stuff to deal with tanks and monstrous creatures, lets put bunch of Missile Launchers and few Meltas/Lascannons, that'll do". And it will do against nearly every other unit on the game, but not against Riptide because it is so stupid durable. It's extremely frustrating to play against units which are immune to nearly everything your army has. Extremely durable units are unbalacing on casual, limited environment because they force you to list-tailor and to take specific set of units to counter them. It's just not FUN.

And this is why Riptide is terribly designed unit.

I can kinda relate to you. I quite often face triple Dreadknights and they are so hard to take out. T6, 2+, 4++, S10 CC, heavy psycannons and heavy incinerators, 12" movement and a once-per-game ridiculous thrust move.

There's just no way for me to beat them, I cannot shoot it to death, I cannot move away from it, I cannot beat him in CC and I cannot use psychic powers to beat him.

I feel your pain, brother!

MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

Just a few reasons though they will have just been rehashed yet again. I do apologize for derailing the thread a little bit however I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague. To put the thread back on track here are a couple tricks I've learned that work very well against my Tau and Farsight Enclave army:

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

Hopefully these suggestions will help, if you want to know more specifically about combating the Farsight Enclaves id be more than happy to assist. I don't play my Tau any other way

But all that is the problem! A unit should not require very specific list-tailoring and allying to be able to kill it. Nobody ever suggest taking very specific units like Black Knights, or allying to get Centurions, if somebody has problems killing Terminators or Land Raiders. Any army has plenty of enough tools to kill those units despite their 'durability'.

Riptide shouldn't be more expensive, what it should be is T7 3+ 4 wounds. That would make it more vulnerable to common battlefield weapons whilst still maintaining reasonable durability. Or alternatively, it should be an AV12 walker.

For the umpteenth time, as a Tau player, the Riptide is broken. It is easily undercosted due to its durability.

But well done on the win OP, now do yourself a favour and never play the guy again. He sounds like a right (insert your favourite noun here).

 gmaleron wrote:
MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

My MCs cost 330-350.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

Forge World gives you cool stuff and you're gonna cite that as. . .I'm not even sure what this is supposed to prove. Again Daemon FMCs are ~330-350 to make workable. Not only are they more expensive but you have to bank on multiple random tables to hope to survive a game AND nearly all builds need to get in combat to earn their puddin'. Don't cry about your flying Riptide.

 Byte wrote:

General Orange wrote:1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Don't forget to turn them invisible.

kingbobbito wrote: He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

I'll say it.

Dudes a certified idiot.

I would like to also add that i say this as well, above. dumb.

You should point him to this thread. For realsies. ZHes already not gonna play with a "Tryhard" like you.

I started laughing again right as i typed that. MAN thats funny.

Did you seriously just say the Riptide is costed apropriatley? Have a flick through the Tyranid and Daemon codices and compare some statlines and prices.

To be fair i think the riptide it self IS relatively costed properly

its the AP2 death gun that is undercosted as feth.

Only 5 points for a large blast AP2 weapon.


edit: OH and interceptor is also undercosted as feth.

Riptide is probably reasonably costed regarding it's damage output, it's the ridiculous durability which should be addressed with. Basically, monstrous creatures should not have 2+ save. It is just potentially too unbalancing, not to mention illogical (why is a monstrous creature more durable against missiles than a tank?). 5 wounds is also bit much.

the Riptide is powerful and not cheap. those two things are fine with me.

The PROBLEM is that enemies want to fight at range and nothing but range. They wont do well if thats all they're capable of. Clearly melee fell out of vogue in 6th Edition and LOTS of people have never gone back to that well and that IS a big part of the problem. the Riptide on its own isnt enough to get up in arms about.

Its ANY LIST that tries to overwhelm and spam you with good units. Having good units isn't what the original poster is against. He's against the gross iniquity and list tailoring this guy is doing.... and his subsequent attitude of My gak dont stank" hypocricy.

ANY player who shows up with 6 Exorcists better tell me we are playing an apocalypse game. Im just saying. Might be legal as hell, but fun factor? meh.

And if a person is STILL playing this game without the goal of having fun and trying new things, its no wonder they turn into this kind of a monster.

My greatest joy (as my blog will attest, see link below) is winning with lists that dont su8ccumb to this silliness level. the tool box (oops, I mean codex) can be used to build a LOT of different things. So do it.

When playing this game it should be like playing with Legos. Sure you might try something uber a couple times. Its cool. But ultimately you have to say "okay okay, I had my fun with that craziness, lets move on".

 gmaleron wrote:
MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

Just a few reasons though they will have just been rehashed yet again. I do apologize for derailing the thread a little bit however I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague. To put the thread back on track here are a couple tricks I've learned that work very well against my Tau and Farsight Enclave army:

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

Hopefully these suggestions will help, if you want to know more specifically about combating the Farsight Enclaves id be more than happy to assist. I don't play my Tau any other way

MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense.

Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else

In a different thread, on a very similar topic, very recently;

[

 gmaleron wrote:

sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh

I didn't include the part where you went on to call me elitist, but do you not see what massive hypocrite you've just proven yourself to be? WAAC =/= competitive, but the implications are completely opposite in these two posts, in the latter you were basically implying to me my opinion is worth gak because I was talking about lower level play as well, as I outlined the imbalance of Riptides at lower levels and without massive preparation. What you were directly saying is that I was acting as though you were wrong because you play at a competitive level, which was a load of rubbish. Are you surprised I saw that as sneering?

I may as well have taught you the word slander given the irony of what I've just had to point out, and the fact that you dropped to ridiculous lows slandering me in that same thread because you couldn't respond with an argument.

Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times.

You're speaking but not saying anything. The thread is about some concerns with Riptides, you said something I thought was false, so I challenged you on it. You didn't deliver until this post. And you did so poorly.

people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit.

Again with the implying people are stupid and incapable of doing things, as well as sore and looking for a scapegoat. Its an insulting, fallacious way of making an argument where you have no data or evidence to prove it.

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

- High points =/= Instantly bad

- One unit kill before death is a massive exaggeration, not a valid point, and a fallacy. If you're going to use point's that question the intelligence and inherent judgement of people who think they're overpowered, can I question your incredible inability to make it last more than a turn?

- This is basically irrelevant for the most part anyway considering I never claimed the Y'Vahra was overpowered

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

You've spoken but not said anything. Again, basically irrelevant to my post.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

- The Riptide doesn't even need the Nova Charge to be as overpowered as it is; if an opponent thinks it would be detrimental to use, they won't use Nova Charge. I hear most Tau players don't even use it most of the time, but it is that much extra power.

I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague.

.....

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

This has limited applications to the people I'm talking in large part about who don't want to just take stuff that gives plain advantages or hard counters like taking ceramite teddy bears out of the Marine Codex to fit in their IG. Its probably about the best point you've made in this entire post still.

Even for high end players, a lot of tournaments restrict ally potential to one book.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

- First clause is exaggerated, objectively false in at least some part and not a good way to start here...

-Psychic Shriek is nice, but has 18'' range, and you'll have very limited numbers of Psykers with it who can be taken apart if the Tau player perceives them as a threat. A Libby is not exactly the most reliable counter to Riptides, but one of the better ones.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

Crisis Suits are irrelevant.

The last sentence was amusing, in part because of how it reads and in part because massed bolter fire is generally an all-round terrible idea as a list strategy, and even if speaking as though you meant it to be circumstantial and relative to army list size in the moment, t probably means little anyway.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

- Your first point is using the broken, unfluffy, abusive, inconvenient method of Grav Centurion drop pods.... Yeah. Not relevant to the people I'm talking about for the most part, both because ceramite teddy bears and because of all the aforementioned reasons. At the highest level? Sure. It'll work. But I already pointed out that Riptide lists aren't broken at the highest level. Riptides themselves, particularly with IA, are undercosted and thus overpowered.

-Dark Angels are a terrible Codex, and Tau will piss all over Black Knights as markerlights reduce to them T5 Tactical Marines that cost 42 points each and will either rely on an alpha strike in scout that rarely works against experienced players or an unreliable outflank attempt.

Everything is fine, you've got grav!



There were probably about 3-ish half-sentence points in your entire post that I found relevant and actually addressing the nature of the points I made in regards to context, the group of people and the fact the Riptide is undercosted and thus overpowered.

I rate your post three dead Terminators out of five.

Edit:

Oh dear, I almost forgot my disclaimers telling you all the things this post is not. Can I settle on the fact that I am not trying to trample your opinion which as of this moment you are subjecting to scrutiny, I'm just pointing out all the flaws in the way you put it across and all the ways in which I disagree with it?

Uh, and though no reasonable person should have to, I'm going to point out that my continued responses with points based on sound logic are not because I'm trying to better my ego, but because I'm taking part in discussion and challenging your opinion that Riptides are not overpowered, because I disagree with it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Byte wrote:

General Orange wrote:1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Don't forget to turn them invisible.

kingbobbito wrote: He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

I'll say it.

Dudes a certified idiot.

I would like to also add that i say this as well, above. dumb.

You should point him to this thread. For realsies. ZHes already not gonna play with a "Tryhard" like you.

I started laughing again right as i typed that. MAN thats funny.

Maybe "dumb" but a way to WAAC him back.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

If he's saying 'no its not', then you've only replied with 'yes it is'.

Why should the Riptide be 220pts? What are you basing that on? It seems fairly priced in relation to Crisis Suits, Dreadknights and Wraithknights. Plenty of other models in the game can get S8 AP3 large blasts for 50pts less than a Riptide costs.
There are many counters to riptides - grav weapons again are a very popular, very effective one. Or lascannons, or plasma, or melta, or psychic powers, or getting it in combat, or getting in combat against other units so you can't be shot at, or just letting it kill itself through nova/over charges (realistically it does 2 wounds to itself over the game).

What about a riptide makes it so overpowered?

Well if we're going to look at pricing lets look at with some real numbers.

Lets look at a Riptide compared to a Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince of Nurgle of equal points. Riptide is stock, Hive Tyrant has one set of TL Devourers and Nurgle Prince has purchased an armor save.

...............WS. BS. S. T. W. A. I. LD. SV. SV++....Points
Riptide:..2.......3....6..6..5..3..2..9.....2+...5++....180
DP:.........9.......5....6..5..4..5..8..9.....3+...5++....180
Tyrant.....8.......4....6..6..4..4..5..10...3+...----......180

So for the same price the Riptide has 1 more T (an important +1 T difference as well) 1 more wound, a better armor save, two ranged weapons and is a Jet Pack MC, so gets 2D6" more movement than the Daemon Prince. Compared to the Hive Tyrant, 1 more wound, a better armor save, an invuln save, 1 extra ranged weapon, and again is more mobile. The Prince has better WS, BS, A, and I, but that's only because it's a CC focuse MC, not a shooting focused MC so for the purposes of this argument we'll call that an even trade for the Riptide being armed with two ranged weapons, while the Prince has none. Hive Tyrant also outclasses the Riptide in WS, BS, I, and A, and is a ML2 psyker so that stacks up slightly better. The Riptide's weaponry, however, is far better than the Tyrants as it is the same strength and rate of fire, but twice the range and has an AP value, as well as possessing another ranged weapon of your choice, free of cost. The Hive Tyrant's weapon is TL, so it does have that going for it. All told, the Riptide is much more durable, faster, and has better damage output over the course of the game (i.e. better in every way) than an equally costed Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant. That's not even counting ephemerals like the Nova Charge abilities at which point things start to get really unbalanced.

Clearly either the Riptide is severely under priced compared to a Daemon Prince and moderately under priced compared to a Hive Tyrant, or Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes are over priced. I haven't heard many people complaining about the latter. Both the Tyrant and the Daemon Prince cost 45 points per wound so I can say with some confidence that a Riptide should cost at least 225 points stock if the costs were balanced. It's still more durable and has more damage output than either of the comparisons at that point, but at least it costs more.

Riptide: Under costed? Yes, definitely. OP? Not terribly.

so basically what I said: Riptides cant fight out of a paperbag and their LD is easily attacked. So do that and you enjoy an immense advantage over it. Try to shoot it up and you wont get stellar results.

But the Original posters issue is that his meta is not uber competitive and none of them wanna play those lists and would rather have more (I think) codex representative forces.

This guy is basically telling them he's not adjusting to a GD thing and they can all piss off.

I get that, especially the part about said player. I just figured I'd do what I could to settle the whole "Ermahgerd Riptide so OP" debate with some objectivity and quantitative information.

fair enuf and not a wasted effort. I just like focused threads. =)

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Well if we're going to look at pricing lets look at with some real numbers.

Lets look at a Riptide compared to a Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince of Nurgle of equal points. Riptide is stock, Hive Tyrant has one set of TL Devourers and Nurgle Prince has purchased an armor save.

...............WS. BS. S. T. W. A. I. LD. SV. SV++....Points
Riptide:..2.......3....6..6..5..3..2..9.....2+...5++....180
DP:.........9.......5....6..5..4..5..8..9.....3+...5++....180
Tyrant.....8.......4....6..6..4..4..5..10...3+...----......180

So for the same price the Riptide has 1 more T (an important +1 T difference as well) 1 more wound, a better armor save, two ranged weapons and is a Jet Pack MC, so gets 2D6" more movement than the Daemon Prince. Compared to the Hive Tyrant, 1 more wound, a better armor save, an invuln save, 1 extra ranged weapon, and again is more mobile. The Prince has better WS, BS, A, and I, but that's only because it's a CC focuse MC, not a shooting focused MC so for the purposes of this argument we'll call that an even trade for the Riptide being armed with two ranged weapons, while the Prince has none. Hive Tyrant also outclasses the Riptide in WS, BS, I, and A, and is a ML2 psyker so that stacks up slightly better. The Riptide's weaponry, however, is far better than the Tyrants as it is the same strength and rate of fire, but twice the range and has an AP value, as well as possessing another ranged weapon of your choice, free of cost. The Hive Tyrant's weapon is TL, so it does have that going for it. All told, the Riptide is much more durable, faster, and has better damage output over the course of the game (i.e. better in every way) than an equally costed Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant. That's not even counting ephemerals like the Nova Charge abilities at which point things start to get really unbalanced.

Clearly either the Riptide is severely under priced compared to a Daemon Prince and moderately under priced compared to a Hive Tyrant, or Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes are over priced. I haven't heard many people complaining about the latter. Both the Tyrant and the Daemon Prince cost 45 points per wound so I can say with some confidence that a Riptide should cost at least 225 points stock if the costs were balanced. It's still more durable and has more damage output than either of the comparisons at that point, but at least it costs more.

Riptide: Under costed? Yes, definitely. OP? Not terribly.

You're comparing three incredibly different models; the only thing that Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes have in common with riptides is that they are monstrous creatures. You'd get better analysis comparing riptides to fire warriors. And they only cost 9 points per wound!

Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants are (primarily) melee-focused HQ flying monstrous creature psykers. Their base profile is a starting point to pile on more buffs (wings, mastery levels, gifts) to end up with a 300pt god rather than a 180pt gimp. They're not supposed to be costed the same as a riptide because as soon as you load a few buffs on them you get eg Nurgle Daemon Princes - ML3 Flying Monstrous Creature with Summoning, Instant Death AP2 melee weapon, 2+ cover and 4+ Feel No Pain. (On that note, Daemon Princes are currently overcosted because of the nerfs they took in 7th edition, which the riptide escaped unscathed because it is neither flying nor has many attacks.)

A riptide is a weapons platforms - it has far more in common with a Dreadknight, Wraithknight or Leman Russ (or within the Tau codex, Crisis Suits or Ionhead) than it does with combat-monster psykers.