Trasvi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

If he's saying 'no its not', then you've only replied with 'yes it is'.

Why should the Riptide be 220pts? What are you basing that on? It seems fairly priced in relation to Crisis Suits, Dreadknights and Wraithknights. Plenty of other models in the game can get S8 AP3 large blasts for 50pts less than a Riptide costs.
There are many counters to riptides - grav weapons again are a very popular, very effective one. Or lascannons, or plasma, or melta, or psychic powers, or getting it in combat, or getting in combat against other units so you can't be shot at, or just letting it kill itself through nova/over charges (realistically it does 2 wounds to itself over the game).

What about a riptide makes it so overpowered?

 Quickjager wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, Dreadknight has more in common with a DP than a Riptide. It was made to be a MC killer. Also don't even think about comparing a Riptide to a Leman Russ, that is WAY too different.

A Riptide is the most shooty MC out there, barring a Dakkarynt.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

Just a few reasons though they will have just been rehashed yet again. I do apologize for derailing the thread a little bit however I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague. To put the thread back on track here are a couple tricks I've learned that work very well against my Tau and Farsight Enclave army:

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

Hopefully these suggestions will help, if you want to know more specifically about combating the Farsight Enclaves id be more than happy to assist. I don't play my Tau any other way

MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense.

Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else

In a different thread, on a very similar topic, very recently;

[

 gmaleron wrote:

sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh

I didn't include the part where you went on to call me elitist, but do you not see what massive hypocrite you've just proven yourself to be? WAAC =/= competitive, but the implications are completely opposite in these two posts, in the latter you were basically implying to me my opinion is worth gak because I was talking about lower level play as well, as I outlined the imbalance of Riptides at lower levels and without massive preparation. What you were directly saying is that I was acting as though you were wrong because you play at a competitive level, which was a load of rubbish. Are you surprised I saw that as sneering?

I may as well have taught you the word slander given the irony of what I've just had to point out, and the fact that you dropped to ridiculous lows slandering me in that same thread because you couldn't respond with an argument.

Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times.

You're speaking but not saying anything. The thread is about some concerns with Riptides, you said something I thought was false, so I challenged you on it. You didn't deliver until this post. And you did so poorly.

people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit.

Again with the implying people are stupid and incapable of doing things, as well as sore and looking for a scapegoat. Its an insulting, fallacious way of making an argument where you have no data or evidence to prove it.

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

- High points =/= Instantly bad

- One unit kill before death is a massive exaggeration, not a valid point, and a fallacy. If you're going to use point's that question the intelligence and inherent judgement of people who think they're overpowered, can I question your incredible inability to make it last more than a turn?

- This is basically irrelevant for the most part anyway considering I never claimed the Y'Vahra was overpowered

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

You've spoken but not said anything. Again, basically irrelevant to my post.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

- The Riptide doesn't even need the Nova Charge to be as overpowered as it is; if an opponent thinks it would be detrimental to use, they won't use Nova Charge. I hear most Tau players don't even use it most of the time, but it is that much extra power.

I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague.

.....

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

This has limited applications to the people I'm talking in large part about who don't want to just take stuff that gives plain advantages or hard counters like taking ceramite teddy bears out of the Marine Codex to fit in their IG. Its probably about the best point you've made in this entire post still.

Even for high end players, a lot of tournaments restrict ally potential to one book.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

- First clause is exaggerated, objectively false in at least some part and not a good way to start here...

-Psychic Shriek is nice, but has 18'' range, and you'll have very limited numbers of Psykers with it who can be taken apart if the Tau player perceives them as a threat. A Libby is not exactly the most reliable counter to Riptides, but one of the better ones.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

Crisis Suits are irrelevant.

The last sentence was amusing, in part because of how it reads and in part because massed bolter fire is generally an all-round terrible idea as a list strategy, and even if speaking as though you meant it to be circumstantial and relative to army list size in the moment, t probably means little anyway.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

- Your first point is using the broken, unfluffy, abusive, inconvenient method of Grav Centurion drop pods.... Yeah. Not relevant to the people I'm talking about for the most part, both because ceramite teddy bears and because of all the aforementioned reasons. At the highest level? Sure. It'll work. But I already pointed out that Riptide lists aren't broken at the highest level. Riptides themselves, particularly with IA, are undercosted and thus overpowered.

-Dark Angels are a terrible Codex, and Tau will piss all over Black Knights as markerlights reduce to them T5 Tactical Marines that cost 42 points each and will either rely on an alpha strike in scout that rarely works against experienced players or an unreliable outflank attempt.

Everything is fine, you've got grav!



There were probably about 3-ish half-sentence points in your entire post that I found relevant and actually addressing the nature of the points I made in regards to context, the group of people and the fact the Riptide is undercosted and thus overpowered.

I rate your post three dead Terminators out of five.

Edit:

Oh dear, I almost forgot my disclaimers telling you all the things this post is not. Can I settle on the fact that I am not trying to trample your opinion which as of this moment you are subjecting to scrutiny, I'm just pointing out all the flaws in the way you put it across and all the ways in which I disagree with it?

Uh, and though no reasonable person should have to, I'm going to point out that my continued responses with points based on sound logic are not because I'm trying to better my ego, but because I'm taking part in discussion and challenging your opinion that Riptides are not overpowered, because I disagree with it.

 gmaleron wrote:
Why are you comparing a MC to a tank? Of course the Riptide is better in that comparison use something relevant maybe? And good thing I'm not trying to impress you, you can keep your biased opinion just because of your Tau hate (just as you say mine is because I play Tau) its okay you can continue to be a forum tough guy, only state this because of how far you go out of your way to try an prove me wrong, keep trying! Also funny you claim my post is full of useless material when you do the exact same thing...interesting.

only state this because of how far you go out of your way to try an prove me wrong

Why are you comparing a MC to a tank? Of course the Riptide is better in that comparison use something relevant maybe?

despite your attempts to say they are vague as that seems to be your only attempt to disapprove me

Backfire wrote:

-Riptide has 5 wounds and can't be instakilled, stunned or shaken etc, which means that powerful, expensive one-shot weapons like Lascannons, or Ordnance weapons, are very ineffective unless present in very large numbers.

Trasvi wrote:
and Wraithknights... fully half of all deaths of my riptides have been via Wraighknight distort.

There are plenty of weapons to use against riptides - whatever you would be using against terminators is a good start. Plasma, Grav, Rending, Poison are all available in sufficient numbers to take down a riptide.


If you think it is so impossible to get the weapons to take down riptides via shooting, you're also going to lose against terminators or thunderwolves or carnifexes or wraithknights or AV13-14....

Trasvi wrote:
and Wraithknights... fully half of all deaths of my riptides have been via Wraighknight distort.

There are plenty of weapons to use against riptides - whatever you would be using against terminators is a good start. Plasma, Grav, Rending, Poison are all available in sufficient numbers to take down a riptide.

If you think it is so impossible to get the weapons to take down riptides via shooting, you're also going to lose against terminators or thunderwolves or carnifexes or wraithknights or AV13-14....

 kingbobbito wrote:
Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'll start by saying that our meta is extremely casual, none of us are particularly great, and I can honestly say there is no cheese. As a result none of us are really sure what to do now that someone is going all in to win. He currently has 7 Riptides (three standard, one for farsight, and three Forgeworld Y'varhas). We're considering banning the Y'varhas, because at the moment they are in the experimental stage, but even then he'd run as many of the standard as possible. 500 point game? 1 Riptide. 1000 points, three Riptides. Our main Ork player is getting absolutely wrecked and is considering leaving the game for a few months, I've got a really casual, fluffy dark angels list and keep getting absolutely rolled over.

What can I do to deal with a Riptide at 500 points? I have a chance with my librarian (psychic shriek), but he stands in the far back corners, and psychic shriek is far from reliable. Lascannon squads are dead by turn 2, and the jet movements make it easy for him to stay in cover.

Alternatively, what about at 1000? Terminators are too slow to get into melee, and he has interceptor on all of them. At this point my dev squads get absolutely obliterated, and a librarian is his first target.

Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it always the Riptide that receives the hate when you guys are complaining about the features that the Dreadknight also has, so where is the hate towards them?
!

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it always the Riptide that receives the hate when you guys are complaining about the features that the Dreadknight also has, so where is the hate towards them?

You guys just think its still cool to hate on Tau.

Plasma guns still wound Riptides on a 3+ and I thought that everyone spammed plasma these days? Riptides die easily if you are not a complete idiot who bitches for no reason!

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah because saying anything about anything nowadays is just hate and bitching.
So yeah have fun getting to the riptides with those mass spam plasmas. id love to see it.
The main difference between the DK and the RT is that the rip can pie plate at AP2. a dread will remove 4+ troops with no issue but cant do gak to terminators.
Both nearly have the same movements and stats, but one can bump up to a 3++, can get wargear for FNP and interceptor and a few other junky ones. AND they benfit from one of the most OP wargear in the game (le markerlights)
Im pretty sure thats why plently of people have "issues" with the tide.