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 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones..

Is this true in 100% of all cases? The Imperium is not a homogenized entity. Not every world is a forge or hive world and not every Imperial citizen languishes in factorums working their fingers to the bone. That's without even discussing the myriad alien societies that exist within the 40k universe. Do you really believe the Tau structure of subservience to an opaque regime who's policies are obedience to a master race, a strict utopian ideology and constant military expansion is a perfect fit for every individual in an entire galaxy?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're a oligarchical, tyrannical and aggressively expansionist regime. They are not good folks. They're just not as horrible as the other groups in the galaxy.

Expansion isn't necessarily bad.

The oligarchy is part of their biological makeup, not something artificially enforced by bloodthirsty tyrants, like it is in the IoM. It's like you're saying ants are bad because they have queens and monarchy is wrong.

When the Kroot signed up, their leaders didn't get replaced. Kroot society remained almost exactly as it was, except now they mostly fight for the Tau and the Greater Good instead of just because they like it.

No, military expansion and subjugation of other societies is necessarily bad. As for your biological point, I suppose you hold this viewpoint with the Tyranids as well? Additionally, the ethereals were no where to be found for the majority of the Tau's history. They are not intrinsically part of some Tau 'hivemind.' They used a form of mind control to impose their regime and will on an entire species. Face it, the ethereals are blood thirsty tyrants. Their credo is rule by force and obey or be destroyed. That is exactly what tyrants do.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would anyone use Search Lights to illuminate their targets at night? That's just... stupid. Also, Leman Russ tanks are stated to have a suite of sensor equipment including passive night vision. So, what this tells us is that the rules don't accurately reflect the fluff. Again. Otherwise Night Fighting would be an utterly pointless mechanic.

You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around. Models are the primary source in 40k. When anything is in conflict, look at the model. Rules flow from the model, not people writing about the model.

Seems that a regular imperium machine gun fired by a skilled commander is more effective at cracking even the toughest vehicles than anything tau can put out with their awesum tekknology including longstrike.

 Las wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones..

Is this true in 100% of all cases? The Imperium is not a homogenized entity. Not every world is a forge or hive world and not every Imperial citizen languishes in factorums working their fingers to the bone. That's without even discussing the myriad alien societies that exist within the 40k universe. Do you really believe the Tau structure of subservience to an opaque regime who's policies are obedience to a master race, a strict utopian ideology and constant military expansion is a perfect fit for every individual in an entire galaxy?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're a oligarchical, tyrannical and aggressively expansionist regime. They are not good folks. They're just not as horrible as the other groups in the galaxy.

Expansion isn't necessarily bad.

The oligarchy is part of their biological makeup, not something artificially enforced by bloodthirsty tyrants, like it is in the IoM. It's like you're saying ants are bad because they have queens and monarchy is wrong.

When the Kroot signed up, their leaders didn't get replaced. Kroot society remained almost exactly as it was, except now they mostly fight for the Tau and the Greater Good instead of just because they like it.

No, military expansion and subjugation of other societies is necessarily bad. As for your biological point, I suppose you hold this viewpoint with the Tyranids as well? Additionally, the ethereals were no where to be found for the majority of the Tau's history. They are not intrinsically part of some Tau 'hivemind.' They used a form of mind control to impose their regime and will on an entire species. Face it, the ethereals are blood thirsty tyrants. Their credo is rule by force and obey or be destroyed. That is exactly what tyrants do.

What we know of how the Kroot and Tau completely dispells your notions of requiring subservience .

Ultimately, the only person who is limited by the Tau is the person (or people) running the world. For the average citizen, the authority at the top is less tyrannical, less opaque, and less aggressively expansionist than the one they came from.

For the drafted soldier, it means he now has an excellent weapon, better body armor, and commanders that care about his well-being. The last being the most important. Tau don't asribe to meat-grinder warfare. Human life is more valuable to Tau than it is to the IoM. It's more valuable than in communist or fascist nations on Earth. Tau, unlike anyone else in 40k, actively works to preserve life. When a race exists only to destroy, then yes, it is met with force, for the good of the galaxy. I've never heard anyone say that the Tau made a mistake when they selected a race for extermination.

Orks can't be treated with. Tyranids don't peacefully co-exist. These beings can only be met with violence, for violence is all they ascribe to.

If Orks were to invade Earth, wouldn't you want your nation's leaders to do everything in their power to exterminate the bastards? The Tau serve that purpose for every peaceful race in the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would anyone use Search Lights to illuminate their targets at night? That's just... stupid. Also, Leman Russ tanks are stated to have a suite of sensor equipment including passive night vision. So, what this tells us is that the rules don't accurately reflect the fluff. Again. Otherwise Night Fighting would be an utterly pointless mechanic.

You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around. Models are the primary source in 40k. When anything is in conflict, look at the model. Rules flow from the model, not people writing about the model.

Seems that a regular imperium machine gun fired by a skilled commander is more effective at cracking even the toughest vehicles than anything tau can put out with their awesum tekknology including longstrike.

... of course, since an autocannon isn't a machinegun and also can't scratch "the toughest vehicles" at AV14 (7+6=13) I think we have an excellent picture in kooaei of just how objectively-minded the Imperial players responding to this thread are. They will not only say things in violation of rules, but will say things that are STUPIDLY in violation of the rules.

I don't suppose Psi or Fuki would like to tell this person they're wrong? I doubt it- I just don't see either of you being that honest... and I'm not sure he'd believe from me that you can't kill a Land Raider or Monolith with an autocannon.

The Tau Empire's goal is not the preservation of life. It is the enforcement of the Greater Good. As in a rigid social structure that works like a well oiled machine. Failure to comply with this structure is met with violence in all situations.

As for the imperial model, you know that the imperium is not a nation state right? It's a loose federation of worlds which are protectorates under Terra. As long as tithes are provided the government of each individual world is irrelevant. Imperial governors are as likely to be elected as they are to be tyrannical dictators. All governments under the Tau are puppet regimes subservient to the will of the ethereals.

Although technically any form of government or economy might be permitted in the Imperium so long as tithes are paid, the level of tithes demanded (i.e. punishingly heavy for whatever the level of productivity of that world) are likely to mean governments with long lasting stability and centralized control are the ones that manage to consistently meet their tithe requirements year after year, generation after generation. This may result in an indirect de facto selection of dictatorial or oligarchical governments over more representative or populist government types.

Iracundus wrote:
Although technically any form of government or economy might be permitted in the Imperium so long as tithes are paid, the level of tithes demanded (i.e. punishingly heavy for whatever the level of productivity of that world) are likely to mean governments with long lasting stability and centralized control are the ones that manage to consistently meet their tithe requirements year after year, generation after generation. This may result in an indirect de facto selection of dictatorial or oligarchical governments over more representative or populist government types.

Oh, I agree. But there are definitely examples of representational government in the fluff, especially BL books. People forget that the imperium is so massive that every possibility is probably occurring within it.

 Las wrote:
The Tau Empire's goal is not the preservation of life. It is the enforcement of the Greater Good. As in a rigid social structure that works like a well oiled machine. Failure to comply with this structure is met with violence in all situations.

As for the imperial model, you know that the imperium is not a nation state right? It's a loose federation of worlds which are protectorates under Terra. As long as tithes are provided the government of each individual world is irrelevant. Imperial governors are as likely to be elected as they are to be tyrannical dictators. All governments under the Tau are puppet regimes subservient to the will of the ethereals.

We've had the 'elected government" discussion before. There isn't a single world in fluff that can be shown to be a republic or democracy. Not a one.

The preservation of life is for the Greater Good. Any living thing that can serve it should. Wven when it doesn't, the Ethereals often show mercy, like they did at the end of the Damocles Crusade. They could have squished the defeated invaders like flies. Instead, the Water Caste opened a dialogue and allowed their enemies to flee- a courtesy the Imperium never extends.

In this loose Federation, entire worlds are routinely Exterminatused because of the actions of a very few. Billions die so that the inquisition may kill hundreds.

The will of the ethereals is nowhere near as brutal, bloodthirsty, or tyrannical as the Inquisition. Usually, their will is to let people go about things as they did before being part of the Empire. It's only Tau that are organized into castes, and those castes are as genetic as worker ants, soldier ants, and queens. It's not tyranny, it's nature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Las wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Although technically any form of government or economy might be permitted in the Imperium so long as tithes are paid, the level of tithes demanded (i.e. punishingly heavy for whatever the level of productivity of that world) are likely to mean governments with long lasting stability and centralized control are the ones that manage to consistently meet their tithe requirements year after year, generation after generation. This may result in an indirect de facto selection of dictatorial or oligarchical governments over more representative or populist government types.

Oh, I agree. But there are definitely examples of representational government in the fluff, especially BL books. People forget that the imperium is so massive that every possibility is probably occurring within it.

If that statement were true, there would be worlds ruled by aliens. There aren't. No, the "anything is possible" line is another Imperial propaganda line to hide its tyranny and overwhelming brutality from the ignorant, scared masses.

Off the dome, there's an elected government in the first graham McNeil ultramarine book.

You're just saying things that aren't true.

That's because he makes up the other factions fluff rather than reading them; remember he said Tau were more technologically advanced than Necrons?

 Las wrote:
Off the dome, there's an elected government in the first graham McNeil ultramarine book.

You're just saying things that aren't true.

What is its name?

Found it- Pavonis was an oligarchy led by the heads of several cartels.

That was before it became an Administratum-led dictatorship.

Sorry- oligarchy isn't representative. It's much the opposite. Try again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
That's because he makes up the other factions fluff rather than reading them; remember he said Tau were more technologically advanced than Necrons?

I certainly said they have a better battle-rifle.

I think you're making stuff up. Would you care to show us the relevant thread?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Seems that a regular imperium machine gun fired by a skilled commander is more effective at cracking even the toughest vehicles than anything tau can put out with their awesum tekknology including longstrike.

... of course, since an autocannon isn't a machinegun and also can't scratch "the toughest vehicles" at AV14 (7+6=13) I think we have an excellent picture in kooaei of just how objectively-minded the Imperial players responding to this thread are. They will not only say things in violation of rules, but will say things that are STUPIDLY in violation of the rules.

I don't suppose Psi or Fuki would like to tell this person they're wrong? I doubt it- I just don't see either of you being that honest... and I'm not sure he'd believe from me that you can't kill a Land Raider or Monolith with an autocannon.

Since I have no idea who Fuki is, I'm going to assume it's supposed to be an ironically affectionate nickname for me... and to be honest, I wasn't going to touch that one with a barge pole since it confused me. I can only imagine he's talking about some Pask variant... I don't know, I don't do tanks.

Rending autocannon

 Bobthehero wrote:
Rending autocannon

Math hammer begs to differ. Even with rending (what the feth gets that, I don't know, but not a standard autocannon) and without Longstrike and even with superior tau optics (BS4) the autocannon fails.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would anyone use Search Lights to illuminate their targets at night? That's just... stupid. Also, Leman Russ tanks are stated to have a suite of sensor equipment including passive night vision. So, what this tells us is that the rules don't accurately reflect the fluff. Again. Otherwise Night Fighting would be an utterly pointless mechanic.

You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around. Models are the primary source in 40k. When anything is in conflict, look at the model. Rules flow from the model, not people writing about the model.

Seems that a regular imperium machine gun fired by a skilled commander is more effective at cracking even the toughest vehicles than anything tau can put out with their awesum tekknology including longstrike.

... of course, since an autocannon isn't a machinegun and also can't scratch "the toughest vehicles" at AV14 (7+6=13) I think we have an excellent picture in kooaei of just how objectively-minded the Imperial players responding to this thread are. They will not only say things in violation of rules, but will say things that are STUPIDLY in violation of the rules.

I don't suppose Psi or Fuki would like to tell this person they're wrong? I doubt it- I just don't see either of you being that honest... and I'm not sure he'd believe from me that you can't kill a Land Raider or Monolith with an autocannon.

I'm talking bout a gatling cannon or autocannon fired by Pask. That's better at dealing with literally anything thanks to rending and being either 20-shot or 4-shot twin-linked.
And FYI i'm not an Imperial player. I'm an ork player.
And you're stating that tau technology is better than imperium technology without knowing the imperium technology.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Las wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones..

Is this true in 100% of all cases? The Imperium is not a homogenized entity. Not every world is a forge or hive world and not every Imperial citizen languishes in factorums working their fingers to the bone. That's without even discussing the myriad alien societies that exist within the 40k universe. Do you really believe the Tau structure of subservience to an opaque regime who's policies are obedience to a master race, a strict utopian ideology and constant military expansion is a perfect fit for every individual in an entire galaxy?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They're a oligarchical, tyrannical and aggressively expansionist regime. They are not good folks. They're just not as horrible as the other groups in the galaxy.

Expansion isn't necessarily bad.

The oligarchy is part of their biological makeup, not something artificially enforced by bloodthirsty tyrants, like it is in the IoM. It's like you're saying ants are bad because they have queens and monarchy is wrong.

When the Kroot signed up, their leaders didn't get replaced. Kroot society remained almost exactly as it was, except now they mostly fight for the Tau and the Greater Good instead of just because they like it.

No, military expansion and subjugation of other societies is necessarily bad. As for your biological point, I suppose you hold this viewpoint with the Tyranids as well? Additionally, the ethereals were no where to be found for the majority of the Tau's history. They are not intrinsically part of some Tau 'hivemind.' They used a form of mind control to impose their regime and will on an entire species. Face it, the ethereals are blood thirsty tyrants. Their credo is rule by force and obey or be destroyed. That is exactly what tyrants do.

What we know of how the Kroot and Tau completely dispells your notions of requiring subservience .

Ultimately, the only person who is limited by the Tau is the person (or people) running the world. For the average citizen, the authority at the top is less tyrannical, less opaque, and less aggressively expansionist than the one they came from.

For the drafted soldier, it means he now has an excellent weapon, better body armor, and commanders that care about his well-being. The last being the most important. Tau don't asribe to meat-grinder warfare. Human life is more valuable to Tau than it is to the IoM. It's more valuable than in communist or fascist nations on Earth. Tau, unlike anyone else in 40k, actively works to preserve life. When a race exists only to destroy, then yes, it is met with force, for the good of the galaxy. I've never heard anyone say that the Tau made a mistake when they selected a race for extermination.

Orks can't be treated with. Tyranids don't peacefully co-exist. These beings can only be met with violence, for violence is all they ascribe to.

If Orks were to invade Earth, wouldn't you want your nation's leaders to do everything in their power to exterminate the bastards? The Tau serve that purpose for every peaceful race in the galaxy.

Except that the Tau DO require subservience of their subjects. The philosophy of the Greater Good can be summed up as "Join us or die". No one is suggesting that the Tau are worse than the Imperium of Man, I fully recognize that they're better, but being better of the Imperium of Man doesn't make them good. If they were good they'd respect world's wishes to be left well enough alone. If they were good they'd let humans, Kroot, Vespid etc. into their political system. I don't mean as advisors or adminstrators of their local native worlds. I mean allow them to participate in the running of the Empire as a whole. Even as equals to the Etherals.

But no, the Etherals are dear leaders who run the Tau Empire with an iron fist. No one can be on their level. What does that make the Tau Empire? A tyrannical, Oligarchical regime. The only reason they seem good is because the Imperium is the shittiest government ever. It's not hard to be better than the IoM.

 koooaei wrote:


I'm talking bout a gatling cannon or autocannon fired by Pask. That's better at dealing with literally anything thanks to rending and being either 20-shot or 4-shot twin-linked.
And FYI i'm not an Imperial player. I'm an ork player.
And you're stating that tau technology is better than imperium technology without knowing the imperium technology.

Do the math-hammer, bro.

Even with twin-linked (and I don't know how it magically becomes twin-linked, since Pask twin-links neither weapon and neither tank has that as a rule) and rending from Pask (who I guess makes his own ammunition or jerks off onto the guns while praying to the Emperor or some such nonsense, because there's no other logical explanation for why his guns are somehow better than those of other tankers) there is a .988 chance to strip a hull point and 0% chance to penetrate. The standard, battle-issue HH with a regular crew strips 1/3rd a hull point and has an 11% chance of penetrating.

The autocannon, of course, is a joke with .296 and 3.3%.

Longstrike has a 23.1% chance of killing a Landraider outright, which means by the time Pask has taken the ~5 turns it would take to kill the Raider, Longstrike has gone off to shoot something else.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Except that the Tau DO require subservience of their subjects. The philosophy of the Greater Good can be summed up as "Join us or die". No one is suggesting that the Tau are worse than the Imperium of Man, I fully recognize that they're better, but being better of the Imperium of Man doesn't make them good. If they were good they'd respect world's wishes to be left well enough alone. If they were good they'd let humans, Kroot, Vespid etc. into their political system. I don't mean as advisors or adminstrators of their local native worlds. I mean allow them to participate in the running of the Empire as a whole. Even as equals to the Etherals.

But no, the Etherals are dear leaders who run the Tau Empire with an iron fist. No one can be on their level. What does that make the Tau Empire? A tyrannical, Oligarchical regime. The only reason they seem good is because the Imperium is the shittiest government ever. It's not hard to be better than the IoM.

The Tau are forging a coalition that will make the galaxy peaceful.

The Tau don't exterminate races that refuse the overture. They show said races, over time, that they're not bluffing. Water Caste officials make overtures of peace with every victory. The only ones that refuse are those so committed to violence and destruction that they simply can't exist in a peaceful galaxy. THOSE are the races that are ended. Those incapable of co-existing with anything. Those that will grind the galaxy into dust if given the chance.

We know that the Ethereals go to the other Castes for advice. The codex says so, more than once. The Ethereals don't hand down edicts from on high- they ask council from the four other Castes and plot a course based on the various input. The Empire is young, and there's no reason to believe they won't ever lift another race up to the level where they can advise the Ethereals directly. Six thousand years before the 41st Millenium, the Tau were shooting each other with muskets. A LOT can change very quickly with the Tau.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


I'm talking bout a gatling cannon or autocannon fired by Pask. That's better at dealing with literally anything thanks to rending and being either 20-shot or 4-shot twin-linked.
And FYI i'm not an Imperial player. I'm an ork player.
And you're stating that tau technology is better than imperium technology without knowing the imperium technology.

Longstrike has a 23.1% chance of killing a Landraider outright, which means by the time Pask has taken the ~5 turns it would take to kill the Raider, Longstrike has gone off to shoot something else.

Take count that it's a 4-shot twin-linked tankhunter autocannon and WITH rending that rerolls 1-s to wound. Or it's a 20-shot s5 gun that rerolls 1-s to hit and to wound WITH rending and tankhunter. Or it's a s8 + 2d6 ap2 gun with tankhunter and rerolls of 1 also that will be around 1.7 times better than longstrike with tankhunter. This humple gun is also paired by a regular lazcannon with tankhunter and rerolls of 1-s to hit. And multimeltas with all the same goodness if you wish. Which can all fire on the move without targeting troubles. Don't know, it's all just TONS better than a single shot and a bunch of puny s5 tl shots that "superior" tau tech can provide.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Even with twin-linked (and I don't know how it magically becomes twin-linked, since Pask twin-links neither weapon and neither tank has that as a rule) and rending from Pask (who I guess makes his own ammunition or jerks off onto the guns while praying to the Emperor or some such nonsense, because there's no other logical explanation for why his guns are somehow better than those of other tankers)

I'd like to point out at one statement by a guy you might know.

EmpNortonII c6f5cc472b8f659245fda2c98f374dfa.jpg wrote:
You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around.

Sorry, mate. Regular imperial leman russ gunz make tau tekknology look bad. Following your own logics. Also, noone rates longstrikes good on tabletop nowadays compared to a hailed omnipotent Pasknisher that absolutely kills stuff to death because...tau tech sux, right?

Yeah, but you'd never see a human or a kroot as the grand poobah of the Tau Empire. The whole Empire was built on the principle that the Ethereals tell everyone what to do. That not only makes the Tau Empire an oligarchical tyranny but a racist oligarchical tyranny. It's just as likely that the Tau will regress further as a dictatorship and lose all pretense of "cooperation" as they will uplift subject races into direct leadership roles.

Coalition? No. They are on a path to conquer the entire galaxy in the name of their naive philosophy. Also, if a human colony staunchly refused to become a member of the Tau Empire even when they call in their Riptides would they just say, "Ok, cool, tell us if you change your mind!"? I highly doubt it.

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


I'm talking bout a gatling cannon or autocannon fired by Pask. That's better at dealing with literally anything thanks to rending and being either 20-shot or 4-shot twin-linked.
And FYI i'm not an Imperial player. I'm an ork player.
And you're stating that tau technology is better than imperium technology without knowing the imperium technology.

Longstrike has a 23.1% chance of killing a Landraider outright, which means by the time Pask has taken the ~5 turns it would take to kill the Raider, Longstrike has gone off to shoot something else.

Take count that it's a 4-shot twin-linked tankhunter autocannon and WITH rending that rerolls 1-s to wound. Or it's a 20-shot s5 gun that rerolls 1-s to hit and to wound WITH rending and tankhunter. Or it's a s8 + 2d6 ap2 gun with tankhunter and rerolls of 1 also that will be around 1.7 times better than longstrike with tankhunter. This humple gun is also paired by a regular lazcannon with tankhunter and rerolls of 1-s to hit. And multimeltas with all the same goodness if you wish. Which can all fire on the move without targeting troubles. Don't know, it's all just TONS better than a single shot and a bunch of puny s5 tl shots that "superior" tau tech can provide.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Even with twin-linked (and I don't know how it magically becomes twin-linked, since Pask twin-links neither weapon and neither tank has that as a rule) and rending from Pask (who I guess makes his own ammunition or jerks off onto the guns while praying to the Emperor or some such nonsense, because there's no other logical explanation for why his guns are somehow better than those of other tankers)

I'd like to point out at one statement by a guy you might know.

EmpNortonII c6f5cc472b8f659245fda2c98f374dfa.jpg wrote:
You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around.

Sorry, mate. Regular imperial leman russ gunz make tau tekknology look bad. Following your own logics.

Autocannons get two shots, not four. In fact, I'm not sure what half the crap you're referencing comes from. Especially since you don't roll to wound when you're shooting a tank.

As has been pointed out before, repeatedly, lascannons are too short-ranged to be of use in a tank battle that isn't on an artificially small table. As are meltas. Their gunners will sit and do nothing. As has also been pointed out, being able to fire on the move doesn't amount to much when your enemy moves fast enough to ensure a local numerical superiority- that first LR tank to be in range will likely have more than a handful of tanks firing at him. Superior speed and maneuverability means you can dictate the terms of engagement.

Once again- why do all the numbers you have rely on having an expert tank commander instead of a standard Imperial crew? They fall to crap when you get rid of that. A million Punishers couldn't kill a single Land Raider, no matter how much they fire at it. You're trying to compare standard Tau gear to magic Pask-spooge-bullets, and saying its Imperial technology. Until Pask's magic spooge can be bottled and issued to other troops, I'm not sure it counts as technology.

... and what comes before everything else is some sense of physics. Yes, it's a sci-fi game, and yes, things don't always work the way they do on Earth... but why would Pask's bullets somehow be able to punch through armor regular bullets can't? Longstrike is just really good- and his rules reflect that. Tank hunter means he's good at targeting vehicles, his overwatch means he's really good at firing at oncoming enemies... but why would Pask's bullets somehow magically be better at punching through armor. Does anyone has an explanation more reasonable than prayer-spooge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yeah, but you'd never see a human or a kroot as the grand poobah of the Tau Empire. The whole Empire was built on the principle that the Ethereals tell everyone what to do. That not only makes the Tau Empire an oligarchical tyranny but a racist oligarchical tyranny. It's just as likely that the Tau will regress further as a dictatorship and lose all pretense of "cooperation" as they will uplift subject races into direct leadership roles.

Coalition? No. They are on a path to conquer the entire galaxy in the name of their naive philosophy. Also, if a human colony staunchly refused to become a member of the Tau Empire even when they call in their Riptides would they just say, "Ok, cool, tell us if you change your mind!"? I highly doubt it.

The Tau Empire is based on the principle that the Ethereals know better than others how things should be. The origins of the Tau Empire are based in that. The four castes were at war, the Ethereals unified them, blah blah blah.

That's WHY they're at the top. When the other castes were in darkness, the Ethereals really did bring enlightenment and purpose.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Autocannons get two shots, not four. In fact, I'm not sure what half the crap you're referencing comes from.

Exterminator autocannon. 2 twin-linked autocannons sticked together. BAM! 4 tl shots. If you're so in for arguing, at least spend some time and investigate what exactly you're comparing here. Only blind fanatics praise something over everything else even without actual knowledge of stuff they're against. And you're not a fanatic, right?.. Nope?..

 EmpNortonII wrote:


As has been pointed out before, repeatedly, lascannons are too short-ranged to be of use in a tank battle that isn't on an artificially small table.

And once again...

EmpNortonII.jpg wrote:
You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around.

All the battles ever are only held at such ranges. Means range above 48 means nothing. And everything above it is either a unforseen harmless perk or a vile waste of gun's resources!

 EmpNortonII wrote:




Once again- why do all the numbers you have rely on having an expert tank commander instead of a standard Imperial crew? They fall to crap when you get rid of that. A million Punishers couldn't kill a single Land Raider, no matter how much they fire at it. You're trying to compare standard Tau gear to magic Pask-spooge-bullets, and saying its Imperial technology. Until Pask's magic spooge can be bottled and issued to other troops, I'm not sure it counts as technology.

... and what comes before everything else is some sense of physics. Yes, it's a sci-fi game, and yes, things don't always work the way they do on Earth... but why would Pask's bullets somehow be able to punch through armor regular bullets can't? Longstrike is just really good- and his rules reflect that. Tank hunter means he's good at targeting vehicles, his overwatch means he's really good at firing at oncoming enemies... but why would Pask's bullets somehow magically be better at punching through armor. Does anyone has an explanation more reasonable than prayer-spooge?

Pask is really at shootign stuff too, so he gets rending on his bullets and tank hunter.

Are you seriously complaining that an extremely competant human tank operator gets nice things, but when an extremely competant tau tank operator gets nice things, its fine? Nice hypocrisy.

It means that the common imperial weaponry is actually capable of such wonders. While tau tech is not.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones.

erm ok but what about the rest of it? That the Tau are essentially fascists, have all the hallmarks of a fascist state, and here's the thing that I think some people are forgetting in regards to the Tau, that they're essentially a stand in for the myriad of alien empires and small factions that litter the universe of 40k? like the Bargheesi, or any of the other one mention races in codexes or rulebooks that give 40k it's vast feeling and setting. They're essentially there to remind us that there's more in the universe than the Imperium and the other big players.
In fact I'll go looking for an old Standard Bearer where Jervis basically said that Tau acted as such for 40k...
White Dwarf used to be cool :(

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Autocannons get two shots, not four. In fact, I'm not sure what half the crap you're referencing comes from.

Exterminator autocannon. 2 twin-linked autocannons sticked together. BAM! 4 tl shots. If you're so in for arguing, at least spend some time and investigate what exactly you're comparing here. Only blind fanatics praise something over everything else even without actual knowledge of stuff they're against. And you're not a fanatic, right?.. Nope?..

 EmpNortonII wrote:


As has been pointed out before, repeatedly, lascannons are too short-ranged to be of use in a tank battle that isn't on an artificially small table.

And once again...

EmpNortonII.jpg wrote:
You got it backwards. Fluff should reflect rules, not the other way around.

All the battles ever are only held at such ranges. Means range above 48 means nothing. And everything above it is either a unforseen harmless perk or a vile waste of gun's resources!

Apocalypse games aren't held on a 4x6. An honest-to-goodness tank battle is Apocalypse.

You're right- an oversight. The Executioner gets 4 shots it will never be able to use, because anything that can't match or beat 72" is useless, because Hammerheads can outrun the LR easily.

So... back to the land where Leman Russes can't magically appear in range of their enemy.

... and how the crap is an autocannon a machinegun again? I think that was the term you originally used.

... and again, only Pask gets rending, because he has magic spooge-covered bullets.

No because he's a good shot and can put bullets where it hurts the most.

Unlike Longstrike and his magic spooge-covered railgun slug that are more efficient than standard railgun slugs.

Hue hue

 EmpNortonII wrote:


... and how the crap is an autocannon a machinegun again? I think that was the term you originally used.

... and again, only Pask gets rending, because he has magic spooge-covered bullets.

Gattling cannon. Machine gun basically. Close to a minigun.

He doesn't have magic bullets - he just uses imperial tech. Which is superior to tau tech because it's so effective it can reliably glance anything to death rather than hope for a lucky explode which will statistically take you half the battle to achieve. And can get through 2+ armor and rerolls part of the failed wounds just cause it's superior tech. Eat that, fluff.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:




Once again- why do all the numbers you have rely on having an expert tank commander instead of a standard Imperial crew? They fall to crap when you get rid of that. A million Punishers couldn't kill a single Land Raider, no matter how much they fire at it. You're trying to compare standard Tau gear to magic Pask-spooge-bullets, and saying its Imperial technology. Until Pask's magic spooge can be bottled and issued to other troops, I'm not sure it counts as technology.

... and what comes before everything else is some sense of physics. Yes, it's a sci-fi game, and yes, things don't always work the way they do on Earth... but why would Pask's bullets somehow be able to punch through armor regular bullets can't? Longstrike is just really good- and his rules reflect that. Tank hunter means he's good at targeting vehicles, his overwatch means he's really good at firing at oncoming enemies... but why would Pask's bullets somehow magically be better at punching through armor. Does anyone has an explanation more reasonable than prayer-spooge?

Pask is really at shootign stuff too, so he gets rending on his bullets and tank hunter.

Are you seriously complaining that an extremely competant human tank operator gets nice things, but when an extremely competant tau tank operator gets nice things, its fine? Nice hypocrisy.

Rending isn't a matter of accuracy.

Let me put it this way- it doesn't matter, ever, how many small-caliber bullets you fire at a tank. The tank isn't going to die from small-arms fire. Ever.

If you want to say Pask should have tank-hunter, great... but why can Pask pick up that assault rifle and blow up a tank? That's what rending lets you do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


... and how the crap is an autocannon a machinegun again? I think that was the term you originally used.

... and again, only Pask gets rending, because he has magic spooge-covered bullets.

Gattling cannon. Machine gun basically. Close to a minigun.

He doesn't have magic bullets - he just uses imperial tech.

So, if a buddy of yours asked whats on the front of an A-10, *your* answer is "a machine gun," correct?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Let me put it this way- it doesn't matter, ever, how many small-caliber bullets you fire at a tank. The tank isn't going to die from small-arms fire. Ever.
If you want to say Pask should have tank-hunter, great... but why can Pask pick up that assault rifle and blow up a tank?

Cause he uses superior tech according to rules.

 Inky wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I always thought that the Tau were quite literally space fascists.
They've got all the hallmarks, a fiercely racialised society, huge amounts of nationalism, a caste system and utter worship and cult of personality of the ethereals.
They're also expansionist and remind me heavily of post-meiji japan.
But that's just me!

Unlike Japan, they're actually bringing enlightenment to the races that align with them. Life for the average IoM citizen improves when he joins the Tau. The Jungle-esque working conditions that are the norm of Imperial industry disappear and are replaced by Tau drones.

erm ok but what about the rest of it? That the Tau are essentially fascists, have all the hallmarks of a fascist state, and here's the thing that I think some people are forgetting in regards to the Tau, that they're essentially a stand in for the myriad of alien empires and small factions that litter the universe of 40k? like the Bargheesi, or any of the other one mention races in codexes or rulebooks that give 40k it's vast feeling and setting. They're essentially there to remind us that there's more in the universe than the Imperium and the other big players.
In fact I'll go looking for an old Standard Bearer where Jervis basically said that Tau acted as such for 40k...
White Dwarf used to be cool :(

When did a fascist government ever say "you can keep your religion, culture, and form of government in fact, just send some guys to help us kill the orks that want to rampage through this system if they gets past [insert name of beleagured world here]

Besides, fascism also requires a large amount of cooperation between the government and large corporations, which the Tau don't have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Let me put it this way- it doesn't matter, ever, how many small-caliber bullets you fire at a tank. The tank isn't going to die from small-arms fire. Ever.
If you want to say Pask should have tank-hunter, great... but why can Pask pick up that assault rifle and blow up a tank?

Cause he uses superior tech according to rules.

I'm pretty sure magic spooge is an equally valid interpretation. It never says *why* he can do it. it certainly never says why no other Imperials can. Maybe the Void Dragon has blessed him.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

I'm pretty sure magic spooge is an equally valid interpretation. It never says *why* he can do it. it certainly never says why no other Imperials can. Maybe the Void Dragon has blessed him.

Who cares, rules are clear. A regular imperial gattling is superior to tau...literally anything you can put on a tank chassis.

As far as it goes, the main tau negative quality is an absolute lack of ability to acknowledge stuff that contradicts their beliefs even a bit.