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I want to model my Commander riding on an attack bike (shotgun, standing up) with both his thunderhammer and storm shield. Like the attached picture (except I'll model the TL bolters and leave out the chainsword)

Would this be tournament legal? All the wargear would be WYSIWYG.

Summerfest wrote:
Would this be tournament legal?

That would depend on the tournament. There is no single set of conversion rules that apply to all tournaments... You would need to run it past the TO of whichever event you are planning to enter for a meaningful answer.


As a general rule of thumb, though, so long as a conversion is not potentially confusing for an opponent and appropriately represents what it is supposed to be, you'll rarely have an issue.

This sounds like it would be fine, and if it's anything like the bike pictured would score plenty of Cool Points.

If a tech marine with a freaking conversion beamer is bike legal, I couldn't see the problem.

As cool as this conversion would be, it would still only be able to be used as an attack bike. There's no rule that would allow a commander to ride on the sidecar and the base is not the right size for a regular bike commander. In a friendly game you might be able to convince an opponent to allow the leader to ride shotgun but I dont think most people would.

If you want to go with a large base size and all the advantages and disadvantages that come with it, then I see no problem. Especially in regular games. As has been said, with the tournaments you would have to double check with the TO first.

dsmith10 wrote:
... and the base is not the right size for a regular bike commander.

Which is only a problem if the TO has an issue with it.

All of my Ork bikes are on 60mm round bases, and I've yet to have a complaint. In any of the tournaments I've been in over the last few years, I doubt this would raise too many eyebrows at all.

As a TO, I would not allow it, since it's on a very different base that it's supposed to be (and allowing it would be a bad precedent to set)

As a casual player, yeah it looks cool, let's play.

How do we know what base a Chapter Master on bike is "supposed" to be? There's no official model for it, is there?

We do know, because the wargear option is to take a Space Marine Bike - which is a very specific thing, with a specific base.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
We do know, because the wargear option is to take a Space Marine Bike - which is a very specific thing, with a specific base.

Ork Warbikes are on a standard Bike Base.

GW don't make a Warboss on bike model, but FW does - it's on a 100mm x 40mm bike base.

Same wargear item.

There used to be a rule in the BRB that allowed you to use a larger base, but that was, what, back in fifth edition?

 DanielBeaver wrote:
...and allowing it would be a bad precedent to set)
.

Why?

What benefit can you gain with a larger base?

 insaniak wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
...and allowing it would be a bad precedent to set)
.

Why?

Because you're letting people put models on arbitrarily sized bases. Geeze, I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud about this, but don't you see how that can be problematic? Substantially changing the size of a model has a significant effect on how it plays.

What benefit can you gain with a larger base?

As an example: a large base allows you to block enemy movement more effectively, by increasing the area that is covered by the 1" exclusion rule. For cases like determining charges into close combat, you could use this big dreadnought base to block off an enemy charge against a friendly unit behind the chapter master (e.g, a thunderfire cannon).

 grendel083 wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
We do know, because the wargear option is to take a Space Marine Bike - which is a very specific thing, with a specific base.

Ork Warbikes are on a standard Bike Base.

GW don't make a Warboss on bike model, but FW does - it's on a 100mm x 40mm bike base.

Same wargear item.

So what? At best this would justify a chapter master taking a 100mm x 40mm base. Since no official model exists of a Space Marine Bike mounted on a dreadnought base, then that's not a valid option. This is a cool conversion, and I would play against it... in any setting except a tournament. It's simply not mounted on a legal base.

I've run a captain on attack bike much like the one pictured since 5th edition and never had a problem at a tournament. I've also recently modeled a TFC as being on an attack bike and again, no problems. I play in 5 to 6 GTs per year on average plus a couple of RTTs and generally the "rule of cool" applies (i.e. if it is a well done conversion and WYSIWYG, there are generally no issues).

Strictly speaking, GW doesn't sell a Space Marine Chapter Master on Bike, so the discussion of using the base supplied with the model is moot.

Again, strictly speaking, GW does sell a Space Marine Chapter Master, which currently comes with a 25mm base.

It could be argued that the Space Marine Chapter Master is sold with a 25mm base and must be mounted on a 25mm base. Any addition of wargear, such as Jump Pack, Terminator Armour or Space Marine Bike would effectively constitute a conversion. The model should still be mounted on a 25mm base. Maybe mount the Biker CM doing a wheelie on his tiny base!

Realistically, I think it would be hard to win that argument since "everyone knows" that Termies are on 40mm bases and Bikes are on Bike bases. Strictly speaking though, GW doesn't sell a Chapter Master on Bike or Chapter Master in Terminator Armour. Strict RaW, we have no idea what base size to use.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Because you're letting people put models on arbitrarily sized bases.

No, you're letting people put models on bases that are appropriate for the model.

Substantially changing the size of a model has a significant effect on how it plays.

In most cases 'significant is a stretch. Yes, it changes how the model plays. In the vast majority of cases, there are negatives to that as well as positives.

As an example: a large base allows you to block enemy movement more effectively, by increasing the area that is covered by the 1" exclusion rule. For cases like determining charges into close combat, you could use this big dreadnought base to block off an enemy charge against a friendly unit behind the chapter master (e.g, a thunderfire cannon).

And how often would you expect that to actually arise in game? Do people with commanders on bikes generally tend to leave them at the back of the board to protect their artillery?

Conversely, the bigger base allows more enemy models to get into base contact with him, and makes it harder to maneouvre him around close packed terrain, so more likely to require Dangerous Terrain tests.

I'm surprised that no one has posted the RaW from the BRB that address this specific situation.

Page 9 of the small rule book...
"MODELS AND BASE SIZES - The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modeled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance."

Now, we get into a weird situation.

There is no Space Marine Chapter Master on Bike sold, so we have a model that has no base. I could make two arguments...

#1 All available power armoured Marines on Bikes are mounted on bike bases. This makes bike bases appropriate.

#2 The Forgeworld Ork Warboss is mounted on a "large bike base" while other Orks are mounted on regular bike bases. As my Chapter Master is also a leader, he should also be mounted on a large base.

I think from a RaW standpoint, you'd be hard pressed to make a case for the 60mm base, because no single biker in the game is mounted on one.

Having said that, I would play against anything so long as it looks cool and isn't obvious modelling for advantage. I'd love to mount my Canoptek Scarab Swarms on large oval MC bases, but I'm certain noone would play me!

dsmith10 wrote:
As cool as this conversion would be, it would still only be able to be used as an attack bike. There's no rule that would allow a commander to ride on the sidecar and the base is not the right size for a regular bike commander. In a friendly game you might be able to convince an opponent to allow the leader to ride shotgun but I dont think most people would.

No, I can safely say that the only people who would have a problem with it would be the 'exceptions that prove the rule: people won't have a problem with it.' Whether it'd be tournament legal or not is completely up to the tourney organizer. They could ban all bikes not popping wheelies if they wanted to.


I made this guy back in 3rd edition and in 15 years, no one has ever said anything more critical than, 'cool conversion.' The only change since then is once bikes got bases, I put him on a 60 mm (the original idea was that it would be an awesome scenic base, but the bike was too big to fit the other stuff I wanted on the base.)

Really, it's one of the truisms that's been with us since the original version of the game - conversions and models that you've obviously put work into to make look awesome get more latitude.

 insaniak wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Because you're letting people put models on arbitrarily sized bases.

No, you're letting people put models on bases that are appropriate for the model.

The model isn't appropriately sized. It's supposed to be on a Space Marine Bike. You know, these things:



Not an attack bike!

This conversion is cool, but let's not pretend that it's strictly following the RAW. And since the OP is asking about tournament rules, then yes: some TO's are going to have a problem with you mounting your Chapter Master on a completely different type of model than he's supposed to be on.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The model isn't appropriately sized.

That's a whole different argument to whether the base is an appropriate size for the model.

This conversion is cool, but let's not pretend that it's strictly following the RAW.

Of course it's not. There are no rules that allow any conversions in the first place.

And since the OP is asking about tournament rules, then yes: some TO's are going to have a problem with you mounting your Chapter Master on a completely different type of model than he's supposed to be on.

Which is entirely up to them. They should, however, be prepared for people to ask what their reasoning is for doing so.

If a conversion doesn't mess with the rules in any appreciable fashion and isn't something that other players are going to complain about, there's no real good reason for not allowing it.

Someone put that huge new nurgle beast with a rider on a flying base at my store. And while it does look cool as a counts as greater unclean one or demon prince, it very clearly gives advantage to the models hideing behind it.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
This conversion is cool, but let's not pretend that it's strictly following the RAW.

There is no RaW on this matter. There's no official model.

Seeker of Slaanesh: "Cavalry"

Mounted on a "cavalry" base.

Chaos spawn: "Beast". Mounted on a 40mm round base.

Thunderwolf cavalry: "Cavalry", mounted on 60mm bases.

So don't tell me that "because it's a bike, it gets a bike base"

Put it on a 60mm base. I don't think any tournament would have a problem. If they do, then use the BIKE part of your attack bike as the model and pretend the sidecar isn't there.

 Spellbound wrote:
Seeker of Slaanesh: "Cavalry"

Mounted on a "cavalry" base.

Chaos spawn: "Beast". Mounted on a 40mm round base.

Thunderwolf cavalry: "Cavalry", mounted on 60mm bases.

So don't tell me that "because it's a bike, it gets a bike base"

Put it on a 60mm base. I don't think any tournament would have a problem. If they do, then use the BIKE part of your attack bike as the model and pretend the sidecar isn't there.

I think the stance is more that "because it's a Power Armoured Space Marine on a Space Marine Bike without an official model, put it on the base supplied with all Power Armoured Marines on Space Marine Bikes that do have official models". RaW tells us to use models of similar type as guidance when there is no official base. I don't think anyone can argue that Space Marine Bikers aren't the most similar type of model. From a RaW standpoint, you would need to supply the most similar model you are using to justify the 60mm base. I'm not sure what that would be.

In a friendly game, I wouldn't care. If I were the TO of a tournament and had been tasked with following RaW as closely as possible, I would require all Space Marine Bike riding Space Marines to be on bike/cavalry bases. Attack Bikes excluded of course as they are different critters. Conversions would be allowed so long as they filled roughly the same dimensions, were mounted on the same bases and equipped WYSIWYG.

For friendly gamin, Rule of cool factors in as well as whether or not you're the type of gamer who has a history of modelling for advantage. There are gamers I know who "accidentally" glue models to the wrong bases to gain advantage in game. "But I'll correct it later." Sigh.

So people with the old bikes that either had no bases or had the rectangular fantasy cavalry bases would be illegal? That's the bases they came with.

Play space wolves and use the model as a wolf lord on thunder wolf. Same size base, movement, etc problem solved. In a friendly game I'd play you. In a tourn id play you but wouldn't be thrilled....unless the TWC space Wolves method was used. It looks like the orginal person who made the model had the same thought as I and a wolf lord.

 Spellbound wrote:
So people with the old bikes that either had no bases or had the rectangular fantasy cavalry bases would be illegal? That's the bases they came with.

Page 9 of the small rule book...
"MODELS AND BASE SIZES - The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modeled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance."

They only have to base them if they wish. But if they do base them, they should use an appropriate base using models of a similar type as guidance. If they want to run them without bases, that's fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's important to remember that there is no rule that I can find in 7th edition saying you have to base models using the bases they came with. You just have to base models using appropriately sized bases.

Bikes are typically on bike bases, so that's appropriate.
Power Armour is typically on 25mm, but given that the new Death Company Marines are on 32mm, either 25mm or 32mm would be appropriate.
Termies are typically on 40mm bases, so that's appropriate.
etc, etc.

Then it's settled! That base looks appropriate for a cool chapter master on a bike conversion.

That's what the model is, so that's the base it gets. A smaller base would look odd and be inappropriate.

Thanks for the replies everyone. While it may not be RAW compliant in the strictest sense, I believe this conversion is the most reasonable way to reflect the CM's massive durability/ attack statline in addition to being WYSIWYG compliant for multiple weapons +steering the bike.

To me, adding clarity to models is good sportsmanship, similar to adding glowing effects to your power/ plasma weapons or putting HQ models on raised bases.