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Ive been toying around with the idea of running an allied detachment of sentinels of terra. Not only do they drop pod well, but you also have the bones of osrek for extra warp charges. D6+6 warp charges seems fine.
2k blood angels
Baal strike force-
Corbulo-120
Mephiston-175
5 man tac w/ lascannon-90
Cassor the damned-140
Assault terminators, 3 LCs 2THs- 210
7 man DC w/ Fist and jump packs- 186
7 man DC w/ Fist and jump packs- 186
Storm Raven-200
6 man bike squad w/ 2 grav combi-grav-166
6 man bike squad w/ 2 grav combi-grav-166
CAD detachment-
Sang priest w/ bike, bolt pistol, power aze-96
Sang priest w/ bike, bolt pistol, power axe-96
Sniper scouts-55
Sniper scounts-55
What do you guys think? I could swap mephy out for a captain, get valor’s edge, digital weapons, and save about 25-30 points. I still have about 50pts left to go in this list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 21:00:46
Thinking that a Libby is the best HQ choice in a codex with 4/5 warp charges at max, is very sad.
Its difficult find a way to compete with the best codex, seems that now BA are very near the bottom.
raiden wrote: The thing is, unless I'm running two detachments and mephiston I don't like psychic powers. To many dice rolls for one thing to come together. You have to get the power, then you have to be able to cast it.
I'm not looking for specific powers. And I'm casting a lot of blessings, so they are not too bad to get off.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Thinking that a Libby is the best HQ choice in a codex with 4/5 warp charges at max, is very sad.
Its difficult find a way to compete with the best codex, seems that now BA are very near the bottom.
No, the priest is the best HQ in the book, hands down. And there are a ton of people on this thread that would strongly disagree with that statement about the power of BA, myself included.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Eldar, Deamons, Tau, Wolves... all these dex seem to have units, special rules or psy BA cannot manage.
and maybe I should add Vanilla to the list..
Eldar have wave serpents, which are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Melta spam, frag cannons, etc. All of those work. Daemons have FMC spam, but they either fly around and shoot or land and die. Again, difficult, but not impossible. Tau have riptides, i guess? Which arent scary at all once you close a bit. And half the assault units in our book ace thunderwolf cav from space wolves. Vanilla marines have centurions, which unless theyre in an invisible death star die like everything else.
Maybe instead of being all doom and gloom about a good book, learn to play it. Or just learn to play.
I think BA is a harder Codex to play well than the ones you've mentioned but I don't think it's necessarily 'weaker'.
We certainly seem to lack any obvious auto-takes, which have that combination of durability, being very killy and reasonably pointed (think TWC, Wraiths), we also lack the proper beatstick CC monster (Let's be honest as good as Dante is SmashFether is the measuring stick here).
We also lack the ability to bring the volume of fire, especially high S with extra buffs such as rerolls, cover stripping etc.
So it can be quite difficult to understand the niche that BA fill, but I feel that because we have access to so much rapid deployment and precision deployment as well as a decent CC punch and interesting formation/detachments, a BA army with a good general can really surprise an opponent.
Are we a top tier codex? Probably not, but we're by no means the worst codex.
evildrcheese wrote: I think BA is a harder Codex to play well than the ones you've mentioned but I don't think it's necessarily 'weaker'.
We certainly seem to lack any obvious auto-takes, which have that combination of durability, being very killy and reasonably pointed (think TWC, Wraiths), we also lack the proper beatstick CC monster (Let's be honest as good as Dante is SmashFether is the measuring stick here).
We also lack the ability to bring the volume of fire, especially high S with extra buffs such as rerolls, cover stripping etc.
So it can be quite difficult to understand the niche that BA fill, but I feel that because we have access to so much rapid deployment and precision deployment as well as a decent CC punch and interesting formation/detachments, a BA army with a good general can really surprise an opponent.
Are we a top tier codex? Probably not, but we're by no means the worst codex.
D
That's probably quite a balanced look at it.
To be honest I've not yet played a game with the new codex, it just doesn't excite me enough. Which Is a shame as ended up being quite excited on the run up to it's release.
I've yet to see a build I like either, too many seem a bit 'battleforcey' for my tastes. When I do start writing down list ideas, they always turn into a monobuild - BSF 4x DC, 3x Bikes, 2x Scouts + some other stuff.
BA in theory seem ok in Maelstrom missions purely because of the number of fast units they can bring.
It's not the worst codex though, or even the worst codex with 'Angels' in the title
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 13:13:00
In my opinion the problem is that we do have pretty obvious auto-takes, such as Sanguinary Priest, Death Company, Dante for example.
They just aren't good enough when compared to the other codices.
TWC > Death Company
Smashfether > Dante
We do have a good and balanced army. We have the shooting power of SM equivalents and a great assault potential.
But I don't see the Blood Angels as a tournament army, outside of some gimmicky formations and such.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Eldar, Deamons, Tau, Wolves... all these dex seem to have units, special rules or psy BA cannot manage.
and maybe I should add Vanilla to the list..
Eldar have wave serpents, which are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Melta spam, frag cannons, etc. All of those work. Daemons have FMC spam, but they either fly around and shoot or land and die. Again, difficult, but not impossible. Tau have riptides, i guess? Which arent scary at all once you close a bit. And half the assault units in our book ace thunderwolf cav from space wolves. Vanilla marines have centurions, which unless theyre in an invisible death star die like everything else.
Maybe instead of being all doom and gloom about a good book, learn to play it. Or just learn to play.
L2P noobs!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
evildrcheese wrote: I think BA is a harder Codex to play well than the ones you've mentioned but I don't think it's necessarily 'weaker'.
We certainly seem to lack any obvious auto-takes, which have that combination of durability, being very killy and reasonably pointed (think TWC, Wraiths), we also lack the proper beatstick CC monster (Let's be honest as good as Dante is SmashFether is the measuring stick here).
We also lack the ability to bring the volume of fire, especially high S with extra buffs such as rerolls, cover stripping etc.
So it can be quite difficult to understand the niche that BA fill, but I feel that because we have access to so much rapid deployment and precision deployment as well as a decent CC punch and interesting formation/detachments, a BA army with a good general can really surprise an opponent.
Are we a top tier codex? Probably not, but we're by no means the worst codex.
D
Then what is the worst codex? Because I can't point to a single codex and say, "Yup, BA are better than X".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 16:14:18
2015/02/02 17:13:32
Subject: Re:Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels 7E Tactics
Blood Angels have some elements that are unique and arguably better than other codices.
#1: Librarian Dreadnaught in Drop Pod - In terms of being able to put boot to ass on the level of CM SmashFace, he's quite competent. Admittedly, he's going to have trouble gibbing him in particular, but consider that with the Primaris Power, you get I/A = 5-7 on a charge. He's got auto ID vs T5 or less, or Force Weapon to ID anything with T6+. Notably, he strikes at or before most MC [that need to take a single Smash attack to hope for reasonable damage, except Fexes and Wraith Knights] and in terms of winning a Challenge? Hells yes.
#2: Fragioso Dreadnaught in Drop Pod - Vs any gunline army, the intense wound output on the drop, with high AV to make countering more difficult, leading into a second round of Fire and Frags before charging. Ties up / wipes out infantry based shooting threats. The 2nd turn charge, assuming a pair, allows other Turn 3 Chargers [Jump packs, down the thread] more chance to arrive unscathed.
#2.5: Better than average Dread-Pods allow us to build an Anvil **in the opponent's deployment zone** to swing the rest of our army as a Hammer into.
#3: Cheap Jump Packs on many assault style infantry - Dramatically increases the odds of getting many guys into combat. DC are great value, and so are Sanguinary Guard. For 8 pts more than Honour Guard [a top teir assault squad] you get jump packs to help deliver them. Additionally, a cheap Sang Priest to hop along with them gives them some defence against Plasma.
#4: Fast "Shooty" Tanks to block LOS to cheap Jumpers - Fast Vindicators are good times, but even better with some cheap assault squads jumping along behind them. Someone comes to you? Counter assault. If they hide back, you've got an AV 13 wall in front that's bombing away, keeping pace with you. Fast Razors with a 5 man tactical Double-Special [dude + sarge] weapon to support those assaulters right before touchdown, and to then hold the objectives while they hop off. I see Plasma as eventually taking the cake over Heavy Flamer for this use.
#5: Accurate, Cheap, Deep Strike Melta - Not many armies can come even close to our Assault Squads with Melta. In a Pod, you're apt to be able to drop in a "near certain" spot, after terrain and models get in the way. On top of that, you've got a 6" "correction" when you deploy, to move back into Melta range. They'll be a near must-take.
#6: Flexible Formation - Why decide between CAD and BSF? Build a CAD list with at least 1 Elite in it. Playing against an I 4 / 5 heavy army, use it as BSF. Playing against an I 3 or less? Use CAD. Best of both worlds, with same models.
#7: Truly dedicated anti-infantry drop pods - Tacticals with bolters and multi-flame weapons... compete with Fragnaughts, but not everyone loves Dreads like I do.
I think its safe to say that BA are very competitive with all 7th Edition codices. Tau, Eldar and Demons are the big 6th edition outliers and trying to compare BA to them is comparing apples to oranges. BA stack up very well against everything published since the release of 7th (AM, Orcs, GK, SW, DE).
th3maninblak wrote: Armies that are worse than BA: dark angels, chaos, sisters, astra militarium, dark eldar, possibly orks and grey knights.
Most of those, sure. Wouldn't say about AM tough. The GK are pretty much equal to BA.
And sanguinary guard/death company will wipe an equivalently costed thunderwolf cav unit on the charge.
On the charge, yes. On the charge the TWC cavalry will be better.
Not to mention that the TWC are more durable to shooting than DC for example.
Also Dante hits harder than smashy, is almost as durable, and has better special rules. Oh, also he's cheaper.
He hits slightly more and faster, not harder.
And he's nowhere near as durable, with only T4, 4++ and no FnP unless you include a Priest to his squad, which makes him more expensive to be useful.
He also lacks Orbital Bombardment.
I think BA are substantially inferior to SW, IG, and GK. I'd put them down with DA, Chaos, Orks, and Sisters. The exact order, I'm not sure. I still feel that when I line up against SW, they have me beat at every facet of the game. They're pretty silly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 21:09:59
th3maninblak wrote: So everyone seems super afraid of the new necron wraiths. Honestly i think we're pretty well set against them. We strike simultaneously on the charge and wound them on 4s. From there we are basically fighting 2 wound marines.
Yes, Wraiths are the one thing we will probably be stronger against than many other armies.
The issue might be the Spyder that gives them RP4+, we should probably lure/chase that away from them and then we can kill the Wraiths.
I am personally more afraid of the Flayed Ones.
They can come in groups of 20 and can not only survive but even win when charged by an equal amount of points in Death Company.
TWC are more durable than death co or sanguinary guard, but more costly and less efficient. They have the better flier, but thats basically it. We do drop pods better than them, and have better mech. Other than that the two armies are roughly equal.
I also dont know why everyone is so afraid of tau...
TWC are more durable than death co or sanguinary guard, but more costly and less efficient. They have the better flier, but thats basically it. We do drop pods better than them, and have better mech. Other than that the two armies are roughly equal.
I also dont know why everyone is so afraid of tau...
Wolves still have the emperor's own Chaos Marines, or Grey Hunters. GH still have better options and chapter tactic than our troops by far.
TWC are more durable than death co or sanguinary guard, but more costly and less efficient. They have the better flier, but thats basically it. We do drop pods better than them, and have better mech. Other than that the two armies are roughly equal.
I also dont know why everyone is so afraid of tau...
TWC don't need the charge for S5 (S10 hammers/fists which BA can't even get). They don't need to pay for power weapons to go through armor. They don't take dangerous terrain to move 12'' beginning or ending in terrain. They have +1T/W over SG and DC. Taken under the Champions supplement (why wouldn't you?) they don't need a priest for WS5. Icing on the cake, they come stock with Counter-Attack. I'd value them higher than SG and DC any day of the week, justifiably so. Even costing more, I see them as the better unit point-for-point without hesitation.
Helfrost weaponry wipes the board with BA without the Gets Hot risk of plasma (hope you stocked up on priests - oh, failed a strength test? dead anyway). Murderfang is what a Blood Talons now wish they were. Double melta pods can come from troops rather than taking FA slots.
It's a better army, imo.
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Point conceded on wolves having better troops. I still think the armies are roughly equal.
Murderfang has a ton of attacks, but only at str7, as opposed to 10. Sure, they have the storm shield dread, but we have the fragnought, which is still one of the best anti infantry platforms in the game. Melta drop pods without using fast attack slots? What else are we doing with those slots anyways?
We also have cheaper sternguard, which are largely considered one of the best units in the game, furthering us as the better drop pod army. We are also the better MSU army, as having fast asscan or lasplas razors and preds is something that wolves only dream of doing. Oh, and our special characters are MILES ahead of anything they have.
I will admit that they do death stars significantly better than us, as while death co and SG match wolves pound for pound in terms of offense, we fall short on durability. 6 TWC with 2 attached characters is a difficult unit to bring down. Their troops and fliers surpass ours as well.
So in closing
Wolves: death stars, fliers, better troop choices, better generic HQs
Blood Angels: better drop pods, MSU, mech, special characters.
th3maninblak wrote: Point conceded on wolves having better troops. I still think the armies are roughly equal.
Murderfang has a ton of attacks, but only at str7, as opposed to 10. Sure, they have the storm shield dread, but we have the fragnought, which is still one of the best anti infantry platforms in the game. Melta drop pods without using fast attack slots? What else are we doing with those slots anyways?
We also have cheaper sternguard, which are largely considered one of the best units in the game, furthering us as the better drop pod army. We are also the better MSU army, as having fast asscan or lasplas razors and preds is something that wolves only dream of doing. Oh, and our special characters are MILES ahead of anything they have.
I will admit that they do death stars significantly better than us, as while death co and SG match wolves pound for pound in terms of offense, we fall short on durability. 6 TWC with 2 attached characters is a difficult unit to bring down. Their troops and fliers surpass ours as well.
So in closing
Wolves: death stars, fliers, better troop choices, better generic HQs
Blood Angels: better drop pods, MSU, mech, special characters.
You're comparing units on faulty footing. S7 is worse than 10 against vehicles and T6+ units - neither of which are things Murderfang or Talon dreads charge. Granted a Talon dread COULD wound an MC easier, but Wolves don't need to do the punch-dance with a big googly with dreads when S10 TWC and Strength test Helfrost exist. Axe/Shield dreads on the other hand SHOULD charge MCs, which is what fragnoughts DON'T fight. What were you using FA slots for? Gravbikes come to mind, since BA have those (and they're excellent for their points) as well as free pods to shore up an assault or bring in some Battle Brothers which lack their own (IG, Inquisition, Scions, Terminators). Might not be the biggest of deals, yet it remains a relevant point. As well, it means that SW make a comparable pod list. Because a single SW detachment can bring 6x double special pods while BA are restricted to 6x double flamers and 3x double melta. Wolves can match the 3x double melta FA pods (granted at BS3), but unless you're facing swarm overload the flexibility favors Wolves (who simultaneously receive a charge better on their pod troops than BA).
Now you are correct that BA can do MSU better, as well as having better named characters (what I assume you mean by special). The second can be offset by the fact that a generic Thunderwolf Lord can go toe-to-toe with any BA character (short of Mephiston). Sternguard are undeniably useful, and a point in the favor of BA.
My summary follows: BA fall in between Wolves and Marines as far as offensive assault power (worse than the latter, better than the former). Pod superiority goes SM > SW > BA (Salamander or Ultramarine pods are still disgustingly effective with their respective tactics, Wolf reasons discussed above). MSU superiority goes to BA > SM > Wolves (I value fast vehicles above special/heavy options of a Crusader Squad or the repair ability of Iron Hands). Deathstar rankings SM (= or > ) SW > BA (I can't make a call on Gravstar vs TWC, but instinct tells me Grav wins out). This puts BA as a midrange book in my mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/02 23:35:01
They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear.
Literally the only thing i disagree with you on in that post is the ranking of pod lists. I would go SM-BA-SW. Other than that, well said, sir.
I will also say that MSU also applies to jumper strategies as well. Im ranked 2nd in our league at the moment with it, and i just finished a better version of the list that may be the strongest army ive ever built.
5,000
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2015/02/03 00:31:41
Subject: Re:Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels 7E Tactics
The thing that is upsetting to me is that after several codices that balanced well together, GW went ahead and released Necrons, and boosted them from their already higher tier state.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing that is upsetting to me is that after several codices that balanced well together, GW went ahead and released Necrons, and boosted them from their already higher tier state.
I think crons may be the best 7th ed dex so far, but i doubt that theyre overpowered. Wraiths and destroyers seem very powerful, and some of their HQ options are a bit on the OP side, but the problematic things like tesla, the barges, and the fliers have been appropriately nerfed.
Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WCCSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WCCSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.
Except helldrakes arent the terror they once were, since they now have firing arcs. Not sure why we need psychic death stars, or invisibility, as our own psychic powers are good enough if we want to go that route. Lost of armies get by with no ignores cover shenanigans, and that being said the frag cannon is awesome as always for that. The fact that you think orks are bad shows me you've been out of the loop for a while.
Tell me, what kind of list are you playing? Or have you actually not played the new codex yet?
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