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2014/12/12 07:54:53
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau (Completed)
This battle report is not for the squeamish and includes scenes of swearing, foot-stomping, fist-waving and cruelty to mini's. (However, no actual mini's were harmed in the writing of this report.) If you are looking for a report which shows great narrative, fluffy battles, the finer side of gaming and great comraderie, then LEAVE NOW! If you are looking for no-holds-barred, hardcore, stomp-your-opponent-to-the-mud action, then continue. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
So there's been an influx of material/formations for Tyranids which, in my opinion, have just catapulted them from a middling army all the way up the stratosphere. Tyranids are no longer an afterthought of an army in competitive play. First with the release of the new Forgeworld Tyranid book and accompanying models, then with the release of a plethora of new models (that should have been included with the codex in the very first place!) and now with the release of the Shield of Baal supplement, Tyranids have just shot up the competitive ladder into top-tier territory. Yes, the newest supplement, the Shield of Baal, will be a meta-changing release as it has just injected another top-tier build to the tournament scene.
I've ran it once already against Grant and his Eldar:
However, this time, my Pentyrant Tyranids may have met their match. This will probably their toughest test. Ever. Period. Not only am I playing against Spam Adam and his slightly-tailored Tau, but I am playing against it in extremely hostile conditions. Adam, a fellow Team 0 Comp teammate of mine, is a very experienced and good player with his Tau. Now he's not quite up there with Justin Cook's Tau, but believe it or not, I have never been able to beat his Tau with my Tyranids before. Adam took his Tau to the Bay Area Open GT 2014 and took 4th place Overall there. So not only am I playing against an army and general that I have never beaten (not with my Tyranids at least, though I've beaten him plenty of times with my other armies before), but I am playing against him with a tailored list.
I mentioned earlier that I was playing in hostile conditions. So what did I mean by that? I truly needed the right psychic powers against his army. With the right powers, I stood a chance. Without, it would be an uphill battle for sure. I needed Catalyst. Out of 10 psychic powers, I only got it once. I really could have used the Horror. Nope. Not even once in 10 tries. Paroxysm would have helped tremendously....only 1. So what did I get? Mainly Warp Blast and Psychic Scream. Aha! Psychic Scream works well against the low Leadership Tau, right? That was what I thought. Unfortunately, throughout the game, I only managed to cause 1W with it out of maybe 10 LD tests! And Warp Blast, well, it did a grand total of only 1 Hull Point of damage all game. Now this is a little foreshadowing, but basically, my psychic powers did jack and squat (though Catalyst was useful).
But that isn't nearly as bad as what my opponent got for his Warlord Trait. For his Warlord Trait, he got Master of Bullsh*t....ahem, I mean Master of Ambush. He also got 1st turn!!! Oh f*ck! I knew that this game had the potential to be very lopsided. The last time he got MoA and 1st turn, he practically tabled Blackmoor at the BAO by Turn 2. He actually got this combo (MoA + 1st Turn) against my Seekerstar daemons once before. He then proceeded to give my daemons the worst beating they have ever had. By the ways, Adam can potentially infiltrate 5 units. Yes, that's right....friggin' 5 units! Warlord (buffcommander) + unit (either broadsides or markerdrones), 3 riptides and Shadowsun + broadsides (Shadowsun has Infiltrate). That's basically his entire army!!!
If I can manage to pull off a win in such adverse conditions and against an army designed specifically to beat mine, then I will proclaim for a fact that my Pentyrant Tyranids may just be one of the most powerful armies currently. However, that is going to be a big IF.
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
3. Hold Opponent's Objective 1.
4. Hold Opponent's Objective 2.
5. Destroy an enemy unit.
6. Destroy an enemy unit.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
So why is the Tau list so dangerous? Well, it all starts off with his Warlord, the "Buffmander" Tau Commander, and the marker drones. It is that unit which makes his list work, even against flyers. Let us do a little math.
9 shots, twin-linked because of the Command & Control Node against flyers = 9 shots, .306 hits = 3 markerlight hits.
With 3 markerlight hits, he can basically strip my cover and add +1 BS to one of his riptides.
So a riptide fires 3 solid S7 AP2 shots and novas his Fusion for 2 shots - with +1 BS and Ignore Covers. That's:
So the combination of all 3 riptides firing together does a total of 2.43 + 1.63 = 4 Wounds, enough to bring down 1 flyrant. This is assuming I move out of malanthrope range because I will have to if I want to hurt his army.
And then we have the broadsides. Assuming no markerlight support (used for the riptides):
So as soon as my flyrants leave their "nest" around the malanthrope, my opponent is doing on average 4 + 6 = 10 Wounds. That's 2 dead flyrants a turn (assuming no FNP, because they can always target the units without)!!! That starts on Turn 2. On Turn 1, they should have already blown through my Void Shields and may have already done some damage to my flyrants, though it will be against flyrants with 2+ cover. Even if it's with 2 riptides and 6 broadsides (because maybe I will kill 1 on my Turn 1), they would still do 8-9 Wounds, which should be enough to take out 2 flyrants still.
Now how will my firepower do against riptides? Assuming all 5 flyrants shoot at it:
60 shots, 53 hits, 26.5 wounds, 4.4 unsaved wounds = 4 Wounds. Not quite enough to finish him off unless he failed a Nova, but for the sake of argument, let's just say I do finish him off (on Turn 1). On his turn, he can still potentially take out 2 flyrants and from there, it'll take me about 2 turns just to finish off the next riptide. My firepower is dropping much, much more rapidly than my Tau opponent's.
My only chance to keep my flyrants alive would be to throw a lot of support units at my opponent. Pop up my mawloc (who has potential to be really nasty against his broadsides....he just may be my X-factor here) and the lictors in my opponent's deployment zone and force him to use some of his firepower to deal with them. That will keep my flyrants alive longer. However, it would also take away my ability to score objectives later! Not sure if I really want to do that.
And I haven't even mentioned his Master of Ambush infiltration tactic yet! He will most likely infiltrate 3 riptides and 1 broadside. If he can also get his marker drones in range, they will be firing against ground units. That means that all 9 hits. 9 markerlights for 1 Nova'd broadside = 3 S7 hits + 2 S8 hits with no cover = 4 Wounds = 1 dead flyrant. For broadsides, that means 24 S7 hits + 24 S5 hits (against 3+ armor only, no cover) = 8 Wounds = 1 very, very dead flyrant. And then the rest of his units will be firing at 2+ cover and void shields. That is still potentially 2 dead flyrants just from his MoA alpha-strike despite the 2+ cover and Void Shield protection.
So in short, I am going to need some luck to pull out the victory here. Luck and my wits. Otherwise, I won't win. Fortunately, I am very witty.
Tau deployment - only 1 riptide and his 2 devilfish with troops. Everything else will be infiltrating.
Fortunately for me, I win the roll to pick sides and choose the side with the larger, LOS-blocking piece of terrain. I try as best as I could to hide all of my flyrants and malanthrope behind it.
Unfortunately, I have a very big decision to make....should I risk my valuable troops as a buffer to my opponent's infiltrators in order to protect my flyrants, or should I just risk my flyrants and pray that they survive Adam's alpha-strike?
I finally decide that I need to preserve my offensive output, even at the risk of my ability to score. I deploy my ripper swarms as far up as I can in order to "push back" my opponent's infiltrators. Basically, I am willing to sacrifice First Blood and 2 very important ObSec scoring units.
Is this the right move or the wrong move? What do you guys think? Should I have sacrificed them? BTW, one of them is within Void Shield range.
Adam then infiltrates Shadowsun's unit to the right. This is as close as they could get because of my rippers.
He then infiltrates his broadsides and riptide to the left. Again, that is as close as they can get due to my rippers.
The last riptide goes somewhere near the middle. Buffcommander-lite and marker drones deploy in the ruins in the center as well.
Oh, I almost forgot....Warlord traits. The Tau Commander gets Master of Ambush. As for my Fighter Ace, did I mention that he gets the re-roll Reserves and +1 to Steal the Initiative trait?
Well, I then attempt to steal the Initiative and....
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
5. Destroy an enemy unit.
Tyranids:
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
3. Hold Opponent's Objective 1.
Riptides move up. Marker drones light up my rippers, which were the only targets they had.
As expected, Tau shooting takes out both of my rippers and getting First Blood in the process. He also takes out the Void Shield Generator as well (with just 1 unit of broadsides, thanks to Tank Hunters from the Firebase Cadre formation).
One of his riptides sees and shoots at one of my flyrants as well, though 2+ cover prevents it from being harmed.
The tides then do their Assault jump moves.
And so the turn went as I expected. In order to save my flyrants, I gave up 2 ObSec troops as well as First Blood. My strategy is to give up the Maelstrom Secondary and instead, try to win with Big Gun Primary along with the Tertiary bonus objectives. That is what I feel is my best chances for a victory in this matchup.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
My flyrants all go after just 1 riptide. The strategy is simple. Do a surgical strike against my opponent's army where I am least likely to be retaliated against. I keep out of range from his marker drones and Shadowsun's broadsides in a refused flank maneuver.
In the psychic phase, I cast Catalyst. I also attempt 2 Psychic Screams, though my opponent passes his LD test against both of them.
Then it's off to shooting. 60 TL-S6 shots later and his riptide is still standing with just 1W remaining. I really needed to kill him.
At the end of the turn, I get neither of my Maelstrom objectives. My opponent gets 1-VP for killing an enemy unit (my rippers).
Maelstrom VP's - Tau: 1, Tyranids: 0
Tau 2
Spoiler:
Maelstrom Objectives:
Tau:
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
Tyranids:
3. Hold Opponent's Objective 1.
4. Hold Opponent's Objective 2.
Tau movement. Everyone moves up, with the exception of the left unit of broadsides.
It turns out that 3 of his marker drones are in range to shoot at my closest Flyrant. They hit once. Then all 3 riptides (with 2 successful Novas) and the broadsides fire at my closest Flyrant (with Onslaught). He goes down, but not before absorbing the entire Tau firepower, thanks to FNP.
Riptides then jump back.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
2 of my mucolids come in.
I get 2 lictors in as well. I place one of them here and the other on my opponent's Objective #2, which is in my deployment zone.
Mawloc tries to pop up on top of the broadsides but scatter famously away.
Flyrants then head towards the core of my opponent's army. Time to make it or break it.
In the psychic phase, 2 of my flyrants (left-most is my Warlord) take 1W each to Perils. However, both powers go off. Psychic Scream, once again, does nothing as my opponent passes his LD tests.
The forward-most flyrant is the only one in range of the marker drones. I shoot and the marker drones go-to-ground. I end up killing 4.
My Warlord then focuses on the injured riptide and takes him down.
The other 2 flyrants focus on his broadsides. My opponent then rolls poorly for their saves and proceeds to lose 2.5 broadsides.
Fortunately for me, Adam finally fails his 1st LD test and his lone broadside huffs it off the table.
This was a most auspicious turn for me. I was able to take out 1 riptide and 1 unit of broadsides as well as to take out almost half of his markerlight support. I am beginning to see a little light at the end of a very dark and very long tunnel. Still, my flyrants are not out of danger yet. It is still anyone's game.
This turn, we both get 1-VP for each taking one of the objectives. Adam has his devilfish on his Objective #1 and I have my lictor on Adam's Objective #2 (in my deployment zone).
Maelstrom VP's - Tau: 2, Tyranids: 1
Tau 3
Spoiler:
Maelstrom Objectives:
Tau:
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
4. Hold Opponent's Objective 2.
Tyranids:
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
4. Hold Opponent's Objective 2.
Fire warriors disembark. My opponent rolls a 1,1 for their difficult terrain move and so they don't go very far.
The 2 devilfish take out my 2 mucolids with SMS fire.
Fire warriors then take out my lictor despite 3+ Stealth cover.
Finally, broadsides and both riptides shoot at my closest flyrant (with FNP).
He is fortunate to survive with just 1W left (after some good saves on my part). It also helped that my opponent failed both of his Nova tests this turn.
Riptides then jump back.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
No reserves this turn. My mawloc burrows back into Ongoing reserves.
I go in for the kill with my flyrants. I am in prime Psychic Scream range now, with each flyrant within range of at least 3 Tau targets (and 1 in range of all 4!).
I then unleash hell. I cast Catalyst and 2 Psychic Screams (I believe a 3rd one failed). I force 6-7 LD tests at 2D6+2. The end result? Only 1W on 1 riptide. Honestly, I shouldn't have been surprised though. In our last game, I also did the same thing to his Tau - casting multiple Psychic Screams against multiple targets - and he only failed 1 out of 8 LD tests. I don't know what it is, but Adam's Tau is just impervious to my Psychic powers.
So I have to do it the old-fashion way. 3 flyrants shoot at his broadsides. 36 shots, 32 hits, 27 wounds = 4.4 wounds on average. I should have killed 2 and a half broadsides. Instead, only 1 broadside goes down.
My last flyrant, I save him for the marker drones. My opponent goes to ground with them again and I only manage to drop 2.
This is turning out to be a very bad turn of shooting for me, that is, until....
...his Warlord and drones decide to run away from the battle.
Oh, the irony of it all. I cause him to take 10+ LD tests (and at +2!) and he only fails 1 of them. I then cause him to take 2 Morale tests (broadsides first, then his Buffmander-lite) and he fails them both! Not what I had in mind....but I'll take it.
My opponent gets both of his Maelstrom objectives this turn, killing 1 of my units (lictor) and still holding his Objective #1 with his ObSec troops in transport. I only get 1-VP, my lictor on my opponent's Objective #2. I am getting beaten pretty badly on the Secondary, but I am kind of expecting that.
Maelstrom VP's - Tau: 4, Tyranids: 2
Tau 4
Spoiler:
Maelstrom Objectives:
Tau:
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
Tyranids:
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
6. Destroy an enemy unit.
Finally, I get a Maelstrom objective that is to kill a unit.
Devilfish moves away and yet, still within range of an objective.
Riptides spread out. One passes Nova, the other doesn't.
Combined shooting by his forces finally take out the wounded flyrant.
He also causes another 1W to my Warlord and force him to jink.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
I see a golden opportunity this turn. I notice that my opponent had unintentionally blocked off part of his devilfish (to prevent me from getting rear shots into his transport). I decide to take advantage of it.
My mucolid comes in dead-on, as does my last lictor. I then fly all 3 flyrants to surround his transport. My plan is this - kill off his transport and watch his troops inside die as they cannot disembark. That's what I call killing 2 Tau with 1 stone.
Mawloc comes up on top of Shadowsun and broadsides. This time, not only does he manage to completely miss, but he manages to mishap as well. My opponent then places him in the very corner of my deployment zone. Bad mawloc, bad!
My plan is flawed. S6 devourers could not crack AV12 with 3+ jink saves (due to disruption pods). However, 3 haywire templates should be able to wreck it, right? My opponent then reminds me that I can't fire one of those templates because one of my flyrants jinked last turn. Doh!
I only manage 2HP's of damage against the devilfish, thus completely failing in my goal this turn.
We count up the Maelstrom objectives. My opponent gets 1-VP for his ObSec devilfish still holding Objective #1 (for the 3rd round in a row now!). Unfortunately, I fail to achieve either of my objectives once again.
Maelstrom VP's - Tau: 5, Tyranids: 2
Tau 5
Spoiler:
Maelstrom Objectives:
Tau:
4. Hold Opponent's Objective 2.
5. Destroy an enemy unit.
Tyranids:
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
6. Destroy an enemy unit.
1 riptide starts heading for my objectives. He novas for the 4D6" jump move. The other tide goes after my lictor/flyrants.
SMS from the 2 devilfish take out the mucolid and put 1W on the lictor.
His riptide fires at my Warlord, forcing him to jink and causing another 1W.
The other riptide fires at another of my flyrants, causing him to jink as well (but no damage).
He then jumps in the Assault phase towards my objectives.
It's a case of too little, too late. His riptides should have went after my objectives at least a turn earlier.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
I further entrench my guys onto their objectives.
Flyrants all go into glide mode.
Warlord casts Catalyst. Another flyrant uses Warp Blast on the devilfish and wrecks it (because it only had 1HP left).
Talk about strange. Last turn, I fire 3 flyrants at his broadsides at full BS and only kill 1. This turn, I snapshoot both jinking flyrants at them and cause 3W, killing one of them. Go figure.
Lastly, my non-snapfiring flyrant mows down his disembarked fire warriors with devourers.
Adam has my Objective #2 (devilfish) for 1-VP. I fulfill both of my Maelstrom objectives, killing a unit (fire warriors + devilfish) as well as holding my Objective #1 (malanthrope).
Maelstrom VP's - Tau: 6, Tyranids: 4
I roll to see if the game continues and the result is a . Game over.
I claim both of the objectives in my deployment zone.
I also get the my opponent's Objective #1 (underneath his wrecked devilfish).
Adam has only got 1 objective with his devilfish.
I take Primary, Big Guns, for 4-pts. My opponent takes the Secondary, Maelstrom, for 3-pts.
He also gets First Blood (my rippers). I get his Warlord (Buffmander-lite) and Linebreaker (lictor and flyrants on the ground).
My opponent made several mistakes here that I was able to take advantage of.
1. First of all, I know how my opponent plays and I took advantage of it. Old habits die hard. I knew that he would probably deploy his Buffmander-lite + drones near the only BLOS terrain in his deployment zone - his ruins. It is pretty predictable of many Tau players to want to deploy near terrain so that they can do their JSJ (jump-shoot-jump) tactic. Thus, I knew that I could have avoided his markerlights for a turn or 2.
2. His infiltration. He should have infiltrated both of his broadsides more centrally. By deploying them on the flanks, I knew that I could avoid the further one (Shadowsun's unit) for probably 2 turns. With my refused flank maneuver, I was able to avoid a good chunk of his offense - his markerlights and 1 unit of broadsides for the first 2 turns. This gave me the time that I needed to focus down on 1 flank at a time while avoiding the brunt of his offense.
3. He moved towards my objectives too late. He should have moved at the very least 1 of his riptides and he should have done so at least 1 turn earlier. If he had done that, his riptide should have made it to one of my objectives and maybe even have taken it. At the very least, it would have gotten him Linebreaker.
Despite some of his mistakes, this game was a roller-coaster of a game in terms of dice. We both had good and bad dice. Adam passing so many Psychic Scream LD tests but then failing 2 crucial Morale tests. My flyrants failing to kill his riptide and devilfish in just 1 turn of shooting. My mawloc not hitting anything all game. Adam failing to shoot down my flyrant on Turn 3. My flyrants doing more damage to his broadsides with 2 snipfiring flyrants than with 3 full-BS flyrants. While probably not my most extreme game in terms of dice, it was pretty much an up-and-down type of game.
In any case, this battle really reflects on the resiliency of a Pentyrant army. Even against an extreme army designed to fight against it and in extremely hostile situations, not only did it manage to survive, but it also managed to achieve victory. After this battle, this army is, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, one of the strongest builds currently in the game. Whether the BAO format or whatever, I am confident that it's got the necessary tools to do well in any tournament format. Not only do well, but it will be a nightmare for almost any army to go up against. So do yourself a favor. If you just want to have fun with your opponent, then don't run this type of list. However, if all you care about is winning, then you've got a winner on your hands.
This message was edited 22 times. Last update was at 2014/12/14 16:28:55
Tyranids automatically win as the Tau list is tailored
In all seriousness, it doesn't look like a lot of firepower on the Tau side. I find Riptides notorious for being extremely durable, not for being extremely shooty. Broadsides are obviously shooty but they always die first.
In addition, the list has no markerlights. Tau isn't going to be that good at shooting without them, giving the Tyranids a slight edge in the 'To hit' department. The Malanthrope is going to have it's work cut out, providing the 2+ cover saves that we enjoy.
Looking forward to it though! If you win, I will probably take this list against one of the Tau players in my gaming club who is starting to get extremely cocky
YMDC = nightmare
2014/12/12 13:11:22
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
I think 'nids will take this with no contest. Not so much because of the Tyrants per say, but rather because the Tau list has next to no mobility against an army that can basically be anywhere on the table that they are required. All the Tau have going for them is the potential to take down Tyrants after they get into the air, but taking the Tyrants down alone won't win the game (and it shouldn't be too hard to wipe out those MSU Fire Warriors, leaving more or less immobile Broadsides and the Riptides for scoring - both can be contested).
2014/12/12 13:22:06
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
I acknowledge that 5 tyrants is very powerful, but this is nothing new. Ever since 7th edition hit people have been talking about multi-CAD lists that spam tyrants.
Falcon Punch!
2014/12/12 14:51:53
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
extrenm(54) wrote: I acknowledge that 5 tyrants is very powerful, but this is nothing new. Ever since 7th edition hit people have been talking about multi-CAD lists that spam tyrants.
The "new" part is that you can now take 15 point troop choices to get extra HQ slots at lower point levels. It's the Mucolid, as much as the new detachment, that changes Nids.
2014/12/12 15:14:53
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
In addition, the list has no markerlights. Tau isn't going to be that good at shooting without them, giving the Tyranids a slight edge in the 'To hit' department. The Malanthrope is going to have it's work cut out, providing the 2+ cover saves that we enjoy.
I do not understand the TAU list. I'm not a tau player, but I play against them a lot. Bursttides are so much better at anit-air. With Rending they are also better at anti-tank against AV13 and below. I understand the urge to run an ion tide with interceptor(I assume they have this) to delete a unit of marines that arrive via drop pod, but 3 Ion tides and 0 Burstides in a trip tide list just seems weird.
Also Skyrays are the best anti-flyrant unit in the game, a better platform for marker lights (really durable, skyfire if they want it), and seem like a better usage of points than shadowsun or the squad of Marker Drones.
I'm really interested to see him run this list with these interesting list building choices. I'll bet he knows what he is doing. Is there a Tau player that can explain the lack of bursttides and the squad of markerlights instead of skyrays?
2014/12/12 16:12:25
Subject: Re:1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
tag8833 wrote: I do not understand the TAU list. I'm not a tau player, but I play against them a lot. Bursttides are so much better at anit-air. With Rending they are also better at anti-tank against AV13 and below. I understand the urge to run an ion tide with interceptor(I assume they have this) to delete a unit of marines that arrive via drop pod, but 3 Ion tides and 0 Burstides in a trip tide list just seems weird.
Also Skyrays are the best anti-flyrant unit in the game, a better platform for marker lights (really durable, skyfire if they want it), and seem like a better usage of points than shadowsun or the squad of Marker Drones.
I'm really interested to see him run this list with these interesting list building choices. I'll bet he knows what he is doing. Is there a Tau player that can explain the lack of bursttides and the squad of markerlights instead of skyrays?
With regards to HBC vs Ion, that's what I thought as well (at least initially). However, I'm finding it to be not much different actually. The reason is because the Ions ignore my armor. Now assuming the riptide successfully Nova'd and not factoring markerlight support.
So here is where you see the difference. Without markerlight support, the HBC is slightly better. However, with markerlight support, the Ion performs more efficiently due to the fact that the flyrant will get no save against it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/12 16:15:57
The determining factor for me depends on what powers you get. If you get 3 with scream, all those broadsides are dead turn 1. Then you spend the next few turns pumping 40-50 devourer shots into the tides and call it a day. All hail our pentyrant overlords.
2014/12/12 16:20:48
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
Strat_N8 wrote: I think 'nids will take this with no contest. Not so much because of the Tyrants per say, but rather because the Tau list has next to no mobility against an army that can basically be anywhere on the table that they are required. All the Tau have going for them is the potential to take down Tyrants after they get into the air, but taking the Tyrants down alone won't win the game (and it shouldn't be too hard to wipe out those MSU Fire Warriors, leaving more or less immobile Broadsides and the Riptides for scoring - both can be contested).
Just want to point out that it won't be easy to wipe out fire warriors in ObSec AV12 skimmers with 3+ cover, especially not with all the firepower coming my way. No, I need to deal with his markerlights 1st and firepower second before I can even consider those devilfish.
Dozer Blades wrote: I think Nids will win - this will show what your support units can do.
Yeah, this will be a real test for my MSU build. Can they prove their worth? They just may be the difference-maker here if my opponent focuses solely on my flryants.
StarHunter25 wrote: The determining factor for me depends on what powers you get. If you get 3 with scream, all those broadsides are dead turn 1. Then you spend the next few turns pumping 40-50 devourer shots into the tides and call it a day. All hail our pentyrant overlords.
I did get 3 Psychic Screams. However, I'll give you a hint. After forcing something like 10 LD test (at +2!), I did a grand total of just 1 wound to them.
But I'll give a hail yeah to our pentyrant overlords anyways.
extrenm(54) wrote: I acknowledge that 5 tyrants is very powerful, but this is nothing new. Ever since 7th edition hit people have been talking about multi-CAD lists that spam tyrants.
Yeah, they are probably to this edition what the seer council was to last edition. However, no matter how powerful the build, every army has a weakness. The seer council even back then was susceptible to a very strong alpha-strike army who went first (i.e. drop pod armies, Master of Ambush Tau, etc.). This Tau matchup might be the kryptonite to my pentyrant build. My opponent getting Master of Ambush + 1st turn certainly doesn't help my cause.
extrenm(54) wrote: I acknowledge that 5 tyrants is very powerful, but this is nothing new. Ever since 7th edition hit people have been talking about multi-CAD lists that spam tyrants.
The "new" part is that you can now take 15 point troop choices to get extra HQ slots at lower point levels. It's the Mucolid, as much as the new detachment, that changes Nids.
Yup. I swear, 15-pt troops is just plain stupid and 45-pts in order to take another 3 flyrants is just ridonculous.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/12 16:30:25
tag8833 wrote: I do not understand the TAU list. I'm not a tau player, but I play against them a lot. Bursttides are so much better at anit-air. With Rending they are also better at anti-tank against AV13 and below. I understand the urge to run an ion tide with interceptor(I assume they have this) to delete a unit of marines that arrive via drop pod, but 3 Ion tides and 0 Burstides in a trip tide list just seems weird.
With regards to HBC vs Ion, that's what I thought as well (at least initially). However, I'm finding it to be not much different actually. The reason is because the Ions ignore my armor. Now assuming the riptide successfully Nova'd and not factoring markerlight support.
So here is where you see the difference. Without markerlight support, the HBC is slightly better. However, with markerlight support, the Ion performs more efficiently due to the fact that the flyrant will get no save against it.
Not quite. He's got one set of marker lights. That means one flyrant might get lit up if you don't kill them (They would be my 1st target by a mile). Those markerlights would probably be better spent upping the BS of Misilesides so that they aren't hitting on 6's. So a Riptide calculus is generally based on how they perform without marker light support.
Also, unless he joins buffmander to the marker lights he is only getting 1.5 tags a turn for his entire army once you've left the ground.
In addition, a Riptide can kill a flyrant in CC. So in many cases you want to spread out your shooting to force as many grounding tests as possible, and you can't do that with marker light support.
While you average case with IA vs HBC with marker light support is better, the HBC has an opportunity to vastly exceed the average case. I've lost full wound flyrants to a single HBC that rolled well, and then failing saves. I've never lost a full wound flyrant to an Ion Tide.
Finally, there is overwatch. I know you don't plan to be doing much charging, but a HBC riptide is a terrifying sight to see in overwatch.
2014/12/12 18:36:46
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
Tag, thanks for bringing that point up. as a nid player, I have learned to fear the bursttide but my typical tau opponent doesn't run the buffmander with marker drone unit.
My friend has learned a brutally effective way to deal with multiple tyrants is to put 1 wound on each one to force the grounding test on multiple tyrants. This works well for him because:
1. i seem to have unlucky grounding test dice.
2. He seems to make alot of 2+ saves on units like broadsides that i can put alot of wounds on with tyrant fire.
I wonder if this is still a very viable tactic against your massed tyrants assuming you don't have crap awful grounding test luck like i seem to have.
JY2, has this Tau list been specifically created to deal with pentyrant? Obviously it has an extreme amount of skyfire but i have find even the twin linked ability of the broadsides is enough in combination with 2 riptides for "normal" skyfire situations.
looking forward to this! Gonna learn today!
2014/12/12 18:40:27
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
Jy2, first off, can't wait for another amazeballs batrep!
As for the game itself, I think you got this. I don't think that it was easy, but I have a feeling your opponent will overextend while trying to kill your fly(r)ants and that you eventually made him pay for that due to your MSU.
Why I think this is so: Against your list, your opponent really needs to decide whether to play the early game, or the later game. He has the tools to all but defeat you by T2-3, sure, but for that to work, he needs a lot of combinations to fall together. If even one link in his chain gets broken, he'll be overextended and caught between five flying rocks and dozen little tiny rocks all over the board.
Finally, I'd like to ask if you think that a well built and played total ground-control list could outdominate your Pentyrants? I mean, in the batrep before this one, I think your opponent had LESS of a chance to beat you, precisely BECAUSE he brought so many AV11 flying chassis. Flyrants are equally good vs both ground and air targets, and the only firepower you have comes from them, so paying points for flying rhinos is actually a huge handicap, in my opinion.
A well-constructed ground-control list would contain mobility to take objectives from you, be resilient enough to survive several turns of your firepower and dangerous enough that your 600 points of ground troops won't stand a chance when they eventually come on. In such a case, if played by equally skilled people, I feel both armies would stand a chance and the game would be decided by dice.
Because with the SW having cheap, versatile and awesome termies, TWC with a 2+ tank in front (such a squad can cost as low as 300 points, so we're not talking deathstars here), WG bike squads with 5 WS5 attacks on the charge and AV12 dreads with a 3++; and the new BA codex with cheap jump DC or more expensive, but more choppy Sang guard, awesome combinations for a massive JP ground/drop force, the meta might shift away from the gunline business as usual, to a more aggresive meta, where denial lists such as Pentyrant and AV spam gunline (WS spam, Necron AV13 walls) wouldn't seem so overpowering.
2014/12/12 18:56:16
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
BeeCee wrote: Tag, thanks for bringing that point up. as a nid player, I have learned to fear the bursttide but my typical tau opponent doesn't run the buffmander with marker drone unit.
I'll bet buffmander goes with a unit of Broadsides, not the drones.
Araenion wrote: Because with the SW having cheap, versatile and awesome termies, TWC with a 2+ tank in front (such a squad can cost as low as 300 points, so we're not talking deathstars here), WG bike squads with 5 WS5 attacks on the charge and AV12 dreads with a 3++; and the new BA codex with cheap jump DC or more expensive, but more choppy Sang guard, awesome combinations for a massive JP ground/drop force, the meta might shift away from the gunline business as usual, to a more aggresive meta, where denial lists such as Pentyrant and AV spam gunline (WS spam, Necron AV13 walls) wouldn't seem so overpowering.
TWC lose to flyrants, because you can't put a 2+ tank out front because to a flyrant there is no such thing as front. They can get you from basically any angle.
Likewise the Dreads with the 3++. that is front only. Tyrants will just throw a few devourers up its tailpipe, and it will go away.
Termies are another thing. If you are rolling good on your saves, it will take a long time for flyrants to wear you down. On Average each flyrant will kill 1.5 termie a turn. That Mawloc has their number, though.
2014/12/12 18:58:58
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
The reason i went with drones is that is what JY2 talked about in his HBC vs Iontide comparison. he can of course go in and out of units and the broadsides will be static. So definitely some options there.
2014/12/12 19:02:34
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
Ah, but you can use those 2+ and 3++ to throw them out of position. And even then, a flyrant kills 1 TWC per round. And you can flood the board with T5 2+/3+ wounds. Or for a bit less board presence, you throw in a Stormwoof and a Sicaran BT, the tyrants will have a lot to fear from your firepower as well. You just need to outlast them, not kill them. Forcing a few jinks might be all it takes.
2014/12/12 19:49:17
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
tag8833 wrote: Not quite. He's got one set of marker lights. That means one flyrant might get lit up if you don't kill them (They would be my 1st target by a mile). Those markerlights would probably be better spent upping the BS of Misilesides so that they aren't hitting on 6's. So a Riptide calculus is generally based on how they perform without marker light support.
All of his missilesides have Skyfire. They aren't hitting on 6's.
tag8833 wrote: Also, unless he joins buffmander to the marker lights he is only getting 1.5 tags a turn for his entire army once you've left the ground.
He does join his buffmander to the marker drones. That is the BEST way to play him. That's what the Command & Control node is for, to twin-link them (broadsides are already twin-linked). The Iridium armor is to tank incoming shots.
Finally, there is overwatch. I know you don't plan to be doing much charging, but a HBC riptide is a terrifying sight to see in overwatch.
Normally, I don't even bother to find out anymore.
BeeCee wrote: Tag, thanks for bringing that point up. as a nid player, I have learned to fear the bursttide but my typical tau opponent doesn't run the buffmander with marker drone unit.
My friend has learned a brutally effective way to deal with multiple tyrants is to put 1 wound on each one to force the grounding test on multiple tyrants. This works well for him because:
1. i seem to have unlucky grounding test dice.
2. He seems to make alot of 2+ saves on units like broadsides that i can put alot of wounds on with tyrant fire.
I wonder if this is still a very viable tactic against your massed tyrants assuming you don't have crap awful grounding test luck like i seem to have.
JY2, has this Tau list been specifically created to deal with pentyrant? Obviously it has an extreme amount of skyfire but i have find even the twin linked ability of the broadsides is enough in combination with 2 riptides for "normal" skyfire situations.
looking forward to this! Gonna learn today!
That is the wrong way to play. You need to focus until 1 flyrant is dead. However, one advantage of the iontide versus the burstide is that the iontide would force my tyrant to jink, thus causing him to snapshot next turn.
This is Adam's normal TAC list. He modified it slightly (as in, gave all of his broadsides skyfire) but those are the units he runs in his normal list. Actually, come to think of it, he had to drop 120-pts somewhere to fit skyfire into all of his broadsides. I wonder where that came from...oh yeah, he dropped all the FNP from his riptides as well as the Early Warning Overrides.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Araenion wrote: Jy2, first off, can't wait for another amazeballs batrep!
As for the game itself, I think you got this. I don't think that it was easy, but I have a feeling your opponent will overextend while trying to kill your fly(r)ants and that you eventually made him pay for that due to your MSU.
Why I think this is so: Against your list, your opponent really needs to decide whether to play the early game, or the later game. He has the tools to all but defeat you by T2-3, sure, but for that to work, he needs a lot of combinations to fall together. If even one link in his chain gets broken, he'll be overextended and caught between five flying rocks and dozen little tiny rocks all over the board.
Finally, I'd like to ask if you think that a well built and played total ground-control list could outdominate your Pentyrants? I mean, in the batrep before this one, I think your opponent had LESS of a chance to beat you, precisely BECAUSE he brought so many AV11 flying chassis. Flyrants are equally good vs both ground and air targets, and the only firepower you have comes from them, so paying points for flying rhinos is actually a huge handicap, in my opinion.
A well-constructed ground-control list would contain mobility to take objectives from you, be resilient enough to survive several turns of your firepower and dangerous enough that your 600 points of ground troops won't stand a chance when they eventually come on. In such a case, if played by equally skilled people, I feel both armies would stand a chance and the game would be decided by dice.
Because with the SW having cheap, versatile and awesome termies, TWC with a 2+ tank in front (such a squad can cost as low as 300 points, so we're not talking deathstars here), WG bike squads with 5 WS5 attacks on the charge and AV12 dreads with a 3++; and the new BA codex with cheap jump DC or more expensive, but more choppy Sang guard, awesome combinations for a massive JP ground/drop force, the meta might shift away from the gunline business as usual, to a more aggresive meta, where denial lists such as Pentyrant and AV spam gunline (WS spam, Necron AV13 walls) wouldn't seem so overpowering.
Thanks.
With regards to a well built/played total ground-control list, it wouldn't "outdominate" my Pentyrants, but it does have the ability to win. I feel that against such an extreme TAC list, you need to get extreme as well. Either go with extreme anti-air or an extreme ground-control army. Normal TAC lists, who does a little bit of this and a little bit of that, will have problems as they normally don't deal with overloading as well. The only exception, IMO, are Necrons who can do both very well (AV13-spam with guns that are great at AA).
It would require playtesting, of course, but a total ground-control list has the potential to give my Pentyrants problems.
Araenion wrote: Ah, but you can use those 2+ and 3++ to throw them out of position. And even then, a flyrant kills 1 TWC per round. And you can flood the board with T5 2+/3+ wounds. Or for a bit less board presence, you throw in a Stormwoof and a Sicaran BT, the tyrants will have a lot to fear from your firepower as well. You just need to outlast them, not kill them. Forcing a few jinks might be all it takes.
With such armies - the deathstar armies - my list will pick them apart. Here is how I would play against it:
1. Spread out the objectives - as far away from each other as possible.
2. Ignore his deathstar.
3. Kill the rest of his army.
I could try to deal with the deathstar, but will bother? It is much more efficient to beat them by killing everything else.
When I think of total ground control, I am thinking more along the lines of 60 marines, combat squadded, in drop pods/rhinos, backed by 30 sternguards, combat squadded, in drop pods/rhinos (or something along those lines). Basically, I am thinking about MSU ground control to give my list problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 20:03:28
Broadsides, I can do. Markerdrones will be a little harder. They've got the jump-shoot-jump tactic that they can use to hide behind walls. It'll take me probably 2-3 turns to get to them, meaning I will have to weather 2-3 turns of Tau shooting with markerlight support.
BeeCee wrote: Tag, thanks for bringing that point up. as a nid player, I have learned to fear the bursttide but my typical tau opponent doesn't run the buffmander with marker drone unit.
My friend has learned a brutally effective way to deal with multiple tyrants is to put 1 wound on each one to force the grounding test on multiple tyrants. This works well for him because:
1. i seem to have unlucky grounding test dice.
2. He seems to make alot of 2+ saves on units like broadsides that i can put alot of wounds on with tyrant fire.
I wonder if this is still a very viable tactic against your massed tyrants assuming you don't have crap awful grounding test luck like i seem to have.
JY2, has this Tau list been specifically created to deal with pentyrant? Obviously it has an extreme amount of skyfire but i have find even the twin linked ability of the broadsides is enough in combination with 2 riptides for "normal" skyfire situations.
looking forward to this! Gonna learn today!
That is the wrong way to play. You need to focus until 1 flyrant is dead. However, one advantage of the iontide versus the burstide is that the iontide would force my tyrant to jink, thus causing him to snapshot next turn.
This is Adam's normal TAC list. He modified it slightly (as in, gave all of his broadsides skyfire) but those are the units he runs in his normal list. Actually, come to think of it, he had to drop 120-pts somewhere to fit skyfire into all of his broadsides. I wonder where that came from...oh yeah, he dropped all the FNP from his riptides as well as the Early Warning Overrides.
When you fail grounding tests like I do it is not the wrong way to play. It really depends on the targets that you have on the board, in our games i've has piss poor luck dealing with broadsides despite dealing an obscene amount of wounds to them.
And that is precisely what i meant when i asked if it was a TAC list. Typically you do not need skyfire on 6 broadsides.
2014/12/12 22:53:44
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
tag8833 wrote: Not quite. He's got one set of marker lights. That means one flyrant might get lit up if you don't kill them (They would be my 1st target by a mile). Those markerlights would probably be better spent upping the BS of Misilesides so that they aren't hitting on 6's. So a Riptide calculus is generally based on how they perform without marker light support.
All of his missilesides have Skyfire. They aren't hitting on 6's.
Ah, that's why his list looked light. That makes it rougher.
Buffmander isn't only about Drone Controller and Twin linking. Monster hunter and ignore cover is quite valuable (no 2+ jinks, and an extra 4 saves per turn on your 3+ armor). Buffmander can still take a couple of drones with him when joining a group of MissileSides. Also he can tank for them, and raises their leadership so they don't run away.
ETA: Buffmander with 3 missilessides with SMS will on average do 4.33 unsaved wounds a turn to a Flyrant (assuming no FNP). That right there is pretty terrifying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/12 22:57:27
2014/12/12 23:25:06
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
I would have tried to squeeze in one AV14 bunker for a squad of Broadsides. There is one four models can shoot while embraced inside (Wall of Martyrs).
When you fail grounding tests like I do it is not the wrong way to play. It really depends on the targets that you have on the board, in our games i've has piss poor luck dealing with broadsides despite dealing an obscene amount of wounds to them.
And that is precisely what i meant when i asked if it was a TAC list. Typically you do not need skyfire on 6 broadsides.
The reason why you should not play like that is that the odds are against you (as the opponent). There's only a 1 in 3 chance of the flyrant getting grounded. That is not good odds to base a strategy off of. Now your case is an exception due to terrible luck on your part, but for the most part, I wouldn't preach that strategy to the many readers (especially the newer or less experienced readers) of my battle reports.
tag8833 wrote: Not quite. He's got one set of marker lights. That means one flyrant might get lit up if you don't kill them (They would be my 1st target by a mile). Those markerlights would probably be better spent upping the BS of Misilesides so that they aren't hitting on 6's. So a Riptide calculus is generally based on how they perform without marker light support.
All of his missilesides have Skyfire. They aren't hitting on 6's.
Ah, that's why his list looked light. That makes it rougher.
Buffmander isn't only about Drone Controller and Twin linking. Monster hunter and ignore cover is quite valuable (no 2+ jinks, and an extra 4 saves per turn on your 3+ armor). Buffmander can still take a couple of drones with him when joining a group of MissileSides. Also he can tank for them, and raises their leadership so they don't run away.
ETA: Buffmander with 3 missilessides with SMS will on average do 4.33 unsaved wounds a turn to a Flyrant (assuming no FNP). That right there is pretty terrifying.
I apologize for my misnomer. My opponent isn't actually running a true "Buffmander". Rather, he is running "Buffmander-lite".
His Commander does not have Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter (Puretide Neurochip) nor does he have the ability to ignore cover (Multi-Spectrum System). All he really does is to twin-link his unit and tank incoming shots.
Dozer Blades wrote: I would have tried to squeeze in one AV14 bunker for a squad of Broadsides. There is one four models can shoot while embraced inside (Wall of Martyrs).
While the bastion + broadsides is normally a good idea, in this case, my flyrants can take care of it. Egrubs will easily dealing with the bastion as well as to cause D6 S5 wounds to the unit inside. That trick don't work on multiple flyrants.
Yup. I swear, 15-pt troops is just plain stupid and 45-pts in order to take another 3 flyrants is just ridonculous.
Yeah. Not sure what the idea there was. Essentially gave Nids a play Unbound whenever you want card.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2014/12/13 06:16:53
Subject: 1850 Competitive - Jy2's Pentyrant Tyranids vs Spam Adam's Skyfire Tau
Blackmoor wrote: The fact that JY2 overemphasized his bad psychic powers means that he won.
Haha. In my "story-telling", sometimes I like to lead my audience. Consider it like a teaser. Now whether that lead is the truth or just a feint, that's something you guys will find out soon enough.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/13 07:56:29
I think nids have a fairly decent advantage in this game, as the opponent lacks the optimal tool for killing flyrants (skyrays).
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
Yup. I swear, 15-pt troops is just plain stupid and 45-pts in order to take another 3 flyrants is just ridonculous.
Yeah. Not sure what the idea there was. Essentially gave Nids a play Unbound whenever you want card.
That is just typical GW, they don't see any problem as nothing like this would ever come to their minds. It wouldn't surprise me if they thought that e.g. vespids were of great use.
As for this battle, Tyranids, of course. Those Iontides can't even touch the Flyrants and first turn is not enough.
I really needed to kill him.
Honestly, I shouldn't have been surprised though. In our last game, I also did the same thing to his Tau - casting multiple Psychic Screams against multiple targets - and he only failed 1 out of 8 
. Game over.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
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It really depends on the targets that you have on the board, in our games i've has piss poor luck dealing with broadsides despite dealing an obscene amount of wounds to them.
