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Grey Templar wrote:It was certainly not the best movie and it could have used a little more stuff. Given that some of the things we saw in the teaser didn't make it into the film I am hoping the extended edition adds some more stuff.
Sauron's banishment seemed a little rushed but it was well executed in the time it was given. I think making it an actual full on battle with Elrond, Galadrial, Sarumon, and an Elven army assaulting Dol Guldur(occupied by some orcs) would have made it a little more complete. Fighting to the top and saving Gandalf and banishing Sauron would have been epic. It could have used a good 20 minutes devoted to this.
Taurial should have died too IMO. I think that would have been the only way to satisfactorily resolve that silly love thingy she had going with Kili. The best would have been have her killed first and then Kili goes into a rage and gets killed as a result.
I am slightly disappointed they didn't have Thorin die like he did in the book. Would have been epic to see Beorn bear hug Azog to death and then drag him to safety and have him die in the tent. Not a huge issue for me though.
Everything you just said here I fully agree with.
Banzaimash wrote:The special effects were nauseating- what made the LOTR battle great was you could actually visually keep track of what the hell is going on. In the battles throughout this trilogy I've almost felt like hurling due to the swirling and frankly unrealistic fights happening before me at their own ridiculous pace.
Also talking about pacing, this film had probably some of the worst pacing ever. I couldn't recall any one instance to support this assertion, partly because it seemed to me that the whole film was a consistent article of poor pacing. Worryingly I felt constantly bewildered by a story I have been very familiar with since I was eight, simply due to the jarring flow of the whole film.
I agree on everything here.
As for stuff in the film there have been bits I do not like- obvious stuff like the Kili-Tauriel love shenanigans and the plain stupidity of some of Thorin's Company (don't get me wrong, I loved most of them- Dwalin, Balin and Bombur for instance, but some like that one who I can't even remeber with the axe in the head really irks me).
Bifur is the one with the axe in his head, and maybe it's because he doesn't really do anything unique. Difficult to give each guy his own "thing" when there's 13 of the same species with very little individuality even in the book.
As for the battle- it felt too small, and I think that is because it was. In fact looking at the battle scenes, the dwarves only brought just over a hundred warriors, and even the mighty goblin hordes only had a few thousand at most. Regardless it pales in comparison to something like the Pelennor Fields, and certainly in comparison to the way I imagined it ( it may just be who thinks this, but the people I have talked to about the film with agree that the battle is but a skirmish in comparison to the battle they'd imagined) Also the trolls looked stupid- a minor point I know. The consistent and bestial look of the trolls in the LOTR made them seem like threatening beasts of war- I understand the trolls in the first Hobbit film needed to be more human and to be fair they were executed nicely, but I do think they should have reverted to LOTR trolls thereafter, rather than the ridiculous bobble-headed giant babies that were scaling the walls of Dale in the Battle of the Five Armies (talking about Dale, I absolutely LOVED Erebor and Dale- indeed Dale reminded me distinctly of Osgiliath).
As for the most important question, that is to say 'too what extent has Tolkien's Hobbit been well adapted?' I would have to say very poorly. Faithfulness to the plot excluded, as I'd be thoroughly concerned if the plot were not captured in its entirety across three films, I'd say that the worst thing about the films is that it really felt like they'd dragged the whole story and Middle Earth to boot through the muck. Laketown irked me- what happened to the pragmatic yet noble people of laketown, that they were replaced by a completely sleazy bunch of weasels, to the point where they were ridiculous caricatures (see Alfred and the Master of Laketown)? Since when did the lord of the Iron Hills start telling people to 'sod off'? This is Tolkien, there is an element of everything being of a higher level than reality- remember Gondor and Rohan? I reckon if they were shown today, Minas Tirith would be some city of corrupt officials, brutal law enforcement and a thriving black economy or something. Also while I enjoyed Martin Freeman's acting, I felt there were times that he overplayed his 'I'm the everyday bloke in an extraordinary situation' card to the point where it really undermined scenes that where supposed to be perhaps poignant or moving or even just dramatic.
yup.
With respect to the dwarves also- WHERE WERE THE BEARDS? One of the defining things about dwarves is their beards, yet half of them merely (I say merely) had impressive moustaches, and in the case of Kili only a stubble. For Christ's sake, dwarves must have stubble in the womb or something, no self-respecting dwarf is going to make do with anything less than a sizeable beard.
To be fair, all the dwarves I saw had beards besides Kili (which I am annoyed about). On the flipside, I did like Dain's beard, but I can't recall the actual length of it, because I was focused on the tusk-like pointed bits.
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Kili is supposed to be a fairly young Dwarf in the film who is just starting his beard. The lack of beard is a clue to his youth and naivete. His brother is a bit older which is why he has a bit more facial hair but both are quite young by dwarven standards.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: Kili is supposed to be a fairly young Dwarf in the film who is just starting his beard. The lack of beard is a clue to his youth and naivete. His brother is a bit older which is why he has a bit more facial hair but both are quite young by dwarven standards.
I know they're supposed to be the youngest but they should still have pretty impressive beards by human standards, sort of down to their chest or something- stubble for any dwarf is inexcusable.
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Oh, I'm not getting into this too much, but boars have much longer snouts. The snout of Dain's mount is squashed similar to a Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pig.
That was probably one of the things cut for the theatrical release, but will be added back in with the Extended Edition. In the battle, Thorin, Dwalin, Kili and Fili mount up on goats that suddenly appear out of nowhere in the middle of the battle. My guess is that there is actually Dwarven Battle Goat Cavalry present in the battle, and Thorin & co. simply commander some of those goats (Thorin is the King after all and can do that).
I watched the movie this Christmas, and I thought it was grand. Dain's 'speech' was epic. I also liked Alfrid. He added some good laughs.
The things I really didn't were those ridiculous goats appearing out of nowhere (as if Rhosgobel Rabbits weren't bad enough already) and Legolas defying the laws of physics even more than in the previous movies. The previous times I didn't mind it so much, but that scene in which Legolas defies gravity by jumping up on falling rubble pushed it too far. The Battle of the Five Armies also was severely lacking in Wargs. Also, the deus ex machina ending with the Eagles was horribly anticlimactic, but that is more Tolkien's fault.
I also would have liked to see more of Saruman and Sauron. That was an interesting part they could have expanded upon.
Also, the Battle of the Five Armies was supposed to be small in comparison to battles like Helm's Deep or the Pellenor Fields. After all, in the book, the Elven army only has 1000 soldiers and the Dwarves 500. The Humans are not mentioned but with Lake Town (the only significant human settlement in the North) destroyed their army probably would not be so large either. The Orc/Goblin/Warg is also not given any numbers, but it does say that three-quarters of all Orcs in the North were destroyed that day. Tolkien's Middle Earth was meant to be on a Dark Ages level, which means that Middle Earth's total population is really rather small, and battles are not all that large either. Saruman's 10.000 strong army in the Lord of the Rings was supposed to be really special because something of that size had never been seen before in the Third Age.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/28 17:10:40
The White Council vs. Sauron felt a bit off. Galadriel's stood waving Nenya in the face of Sauron (which in itself is probably not too clever TBH), and Saruman and Elrond just stand there while she takes Sauron down on her own. If they've already decided to use their Rings of Power, why not have Elrond and the leader of the Istari help Galadriel out a bit? Old as she is, Saruman and Sauron are on a wholly different level.
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Ahtman wrote: Kili is supposed to be a fairly young Dwarf in the film who is just starting his beard. The lack of beard is a clue to his youth and naivete. His brother is a bit older which is why he has a bit more facial hair but both are quite young by dwarven standards.
I know they're supposed to be the youngest but they should still have pretty impressive beards by human standards, sort of down to their chest or something- stubble for any dwarf is inexcusable.
Eh, I'm ok with Dwarves not walking out of the womb with a beard, and as was stated earlier you have to differentiate thirteen different Dwarves visually in a visual medium.
I don't mind that Legolas did the common thing of elves breaking the laws of physics so much as I wish it hadn't been in slow motion. It would have looked better and been more elvish to show it at regular speed.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The White Council vs. Sauron felt a bit off. Galadriel's stood waving Nenya in the face of Sauron (which in itself is probably not too clever TBH), and Saruman and Elrond just stand there while she takes Sauron down on her own. If they've already decided to use their Rings of Power, why not have Elrond and the leader of the Istari help Galadriel out a bit? Old as she is, Saruman and Sauron are on a wholly different level.
Tolkien does describe Gladariel as "mightest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" - so at this point with Sauron not having the bulk of his power which is tied up with his ring, she may just be using her own inherent powers - hence being "diminished"" when she banishes Sauron- her roles in the hobbit films are some of my favouite
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The men of laketown are mentioned several times in the book, they were definitely present in the battle.
I wish I COULD enjoy the film to be honest. It's unlikely I'll get another Middle Earth screen adventure any time soon, and the original trilogy are some of my favourite films despite their flaws.
Da Boss wrote: The men of laketown are mentioned several times in the book, they were definitely present in the battle.
I wish I COULD enjoy the film to be honest. It's unlikely I'll get another Middle Earth screen adventure any time soon, and the original trilogy are some of my favourite films despite their flaws.
Yeah, they were present during the battle, but what I meant was that there is no mention of their exact numbers apart from there being 200 deployed on the same mountain spur as the dwarves.
I've been trying to figure out how you make these movies into two movies. Battle of The Five Armies is just one long climax, not a movie unto itself, but I'm trying to figure out what the climax of the first film would be if there were two movies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 22:11:00
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've been trying to figure out how you make these movies into two movies. Battle of The Five Armies is just one long climax, not a movie unto itself, but I'm trying to figure out what the climax of the first film would be if there were two movies.
Being captured and imprisoned by the Elves.
Or escaping in the barrels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/28 22:40:52
Or I should be, if the first 2 episodes had not already numbed my mind...
Uninspired, anti-epic, intolarable caricatures, bad editing/timing/pacing, bad dialogues, bad, bad screen-writing.
I also have no idea why the title was still The Hobbit, since he plays no role whatsoever - and when he does appear, MF conveys all emotions through nose wriggleing...
All the things that kept LOTR from being masterpieces blown up by factor 100, basically.
We were really relieved when it was over...
To be fair, the Thorin's madness story line was good in comparison, Balin a very likeable character and I had no problem with the love story (except for the kitsch daddy-love ending).
After two years of objection I recently watch the first Hobbit film, and then the Second. I didn't really enjoy it at all. There's far too much derp in it. I'm glad The Lord of the Rings turned out pretty well. The Fellowship will still be my favourite though.
The look of the LOTR's is just infinitely superior to The Hobbit films. Jackson really is a hack. A lot of people reason that it is because Christopher Lee wasn't around as must to keep his BS in check.
The LotR films, made by Peter Jackson, is infinitely superior to the Hobbit films, but Peter Jackson is a hack? I don't think Christopher Lee had much to do with it. I'm not saying actors can't have any effect on directors, as filmmaking is a collaborative art form, but last I knew Christopher Lee didn't have anything to do with the set and costume design, editing, cinematography, screenwriting, etc.
PJ was definitely channeling George Lucas when he made The Hobbit. But at least we can take consolation that his Prequel trilogy wasn't quite so disastrous as Lucas'.
Hordini wrote: The LotR films, made by Peter Jackson, is infinitely superior to the Hobbit films, but Peter Jackson is a hack? I don't think Christopher Lee had much to do with it. I'm not saying actors can't have any effect on directors, as filmmaking is a collaborative art form, but last I knew Christopher Lee didn't have anything to do with the set and costume design, editing, cinematography, screenwriting, etc.
If you watch the behind the scenes on the LOTR's you can see Christopher is a massive Tolkien fan. He re-reads the books every year. He might not have designed things but he did have the pulse of the setting.
There seems to have been much more effort put into those films. There are hours of special features on the extended box sets of the LOTR. I'm sure there's a segment where it talks about Lee complaining about elements of the script to Jackson.
Hordini wrote: The LotR films, made by Peter Jackson, is infinitely superior to the Hobbit films, but Peter Jackson is a hack? I don't think Christopher Lee had much to do with it. I'm not saying actors can't have any effect on directors, as filmmaking is a collaborative art form, but last I knew Christopher Lee didn't have anything to do with the set and costume design, editing, cinematography, screenwriting, etc.
If you watch the behind the scenes on the LOTR's you can see Christopher is a massive Tolkien fan. He re-reads the books every year. He might not have designed things but he did have the pulse of the setting.
There seems to have been much more effort put into those films. There are hours of special features on the extended box sets of the LOTR. I'm sure there's a segment where it talks about Lee complaining about elements of the script to Jackson.
I'm not surprised - Christopher Lee actually met Tolkien prior to the authors death.
Hordini wrote: The LotR films, made by Peter Jackson, is infinitely superior to the Hobbit films, but Peter Jackson is a hack? I don't think Christopher Lee had much to do with it. I'm not saying actors can't have any effect on directors, as filmmaking is a collaborative art form, but last I knew Christopher Lee didn't have anything to do with the set and costume design, editing, cinematography, screenwriting, etc.
If you watch the behind the scenes on the LOTR's you can see Christopher is a massive Tolkien fan. He re-reads the books every year. He might not have designed things but he did have the pulse of the setting.
There seems to have been much more effort put into those films. There are hours of special features on the extended box sets of the LOTR. I'm sure there's a segment where it talks about Lee complaining about elements of the script to Jackson.
I'm not surprised - Christopher Lee actually met Tolkien prior to the authors death.
Hordini wrote: The LotR films, made by Peter Jackson, is infinitely superior to the Hobbit films, but Peter Jackson is a hack? I don't think Christopher Lee had much to do with it. I'm not saying actors can't have any effect on directors, as filmmaking is a collaborative art form, but last I knew Christopher Lee didn't have anything to do with the set and costume design, editing, cinematography, screenwriting, etc.
If you watch the behind the scenes on the LOTR's you can see Christopher is a massive Tolkien fan. He re-reads the books every year. He might not have designed things but he did have the pulse of the setting.
There seems to have been much more effort put into those films. There are hours of special features on the extended box sets of the LOTR. I'm sure there's a segment where it talks about Lee complaining about elements of the script to Jackson.
Because he love Tolkien doesn't mean he had any say over anything being done in the film. You also have to remember that he was absent from all on-location filming, having filmed all of his parts in England because he was unable to travel (health concerns, you know, because he is freaking 92).
Also, actors typically don't see anything thing they film while it is in post-production; they film their scenes and that's it.
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