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Only two attacks?

Only Toughness 4?

Well, 50 points for this does not seem not cheap to. Very expensive, rather.

If we compare it to the Canoptek Spyder, another 50 point Monstrous Creature, it has...

+1 WS, +1 BS, -1 S, -2 T, +2 I, -3 Ld, -2 Sv.

In exchange, it gains Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, Fleet, Rampage, two heavy flamers, those silly weapons (AP4 means nothing on a MC)...

Including the weapons, its profile actually shifts

+1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, -2 T, +2 I, +1 A, -3 Ld, -2 Sv

It's going to mulch infantry as it should, but it's fragile. It's going to be taken down by bolters that the Spyder could reliably shrug off. In short, it's a Heavy Weapon Guy away from a dead model per turn. Damage output is well worth 50 points, but just like the Walker version, its never going to see combat.

With the PE I'm honestly all for it going up in points cost from now as long as it becomes a more reliable option because right now you need to be kind of crazy to field enough of them to actually have them for them to be useful. I say crazy because you need to own and build them (and I have yet to see anyone make resin copies of the PE which would solve how hard it is to assemble) and then be willing to put 9+ of them into an army to saturate the table with enough to make them useful.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Only two attacks?

Because that's exactly what Dreadnoughts have. Actually 3 since it has 2 buzzsaws, + Rampage, + in a squadron of 3 that's 9 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Only Toughness 4?

Yeah, it has a normal person strapped to the front with no protection. I gave it T4 following the notion that bikes give you +1T. And this allows it to be ID'd by ahti-tank weapons, but still be resistant to small arms, especially with FNP.

Maybe 30 points?

Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.

It's T4 for two reasons.

1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.

2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.

At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.

This is my Repentia ill post some up of my Engines tomorrow. Black one is pinned and the yellow one is magnitzed.

I'll state my stance from the beginning and then explain.

Stance: I disagree and do not hope they ditch them from the SOB product lineup.

Reasoning:
1. Currently the Sister models are extremely expensive and a lot of people have invested significant amounts of money into Penitent Engines and Repentia Sisters. To cut them from the SOB lineup would be a kick in the teeth for those people.
2. It makes sense in their fluff, extremely religious nut-heads punishing themselves or others for crimes either real or imagined.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

Dreadknights are cheese. Do you want more cheese? (Though if anyone needs it, it's Sisters)

And Why those pictures loaded side ways I will never know.

man those PE's look really front heavy.

Well if they fail to kill anything they make a nice heavy Metal Object to throw. lol . Yes they are very front heavy that is why they are set on the base the way they are. In the middle of base they would just fall forward. I have not fielded them since the digital Dex came out. Mainly Because Exorcists are King and all 3 slots are filled with them.

Just for the record, the Dreadknight's pilot is wearing Terminator armour.

Alcibiades wrote:
1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.

Yeah, this is part of what makes the PE look so silly. In the case of arcoflagellant, you just have one human that has been turned into something much, much more deadly. So the result is actually more likely to actually reach combat than a normal human: he will disregard any fear for personal safety, will run faster than any human could, and will ignore any wound that is not directly crippling (and even then will likely continue to try to attack, just less efficiently). They are likely to die even if they do not suffer any injury from the enemy, because of the backlash of the drugs and the inhuman effort they submit their bodies to. Loosing them is not a problem. The penitent engine, though? The pilot makes a much easier target to focus than the arcoflagellant, being strapped up and standing quite a bit higher than the normal soldier, completely unable to evade anything. Contrast that to the hunched up silhouette of an arcoflagellant… And when the pilot is lost, the whole machine become completely useless. This is why I do not like the concept.

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.

It's T4 for two reasons.

1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.

2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.

At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.

The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.

And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

Dreadknights are cheese. Do you want more cheese? (Though if anyone needs it, it's Sisters)

Not really. I was just trying to point out that there is a basis for having a higher T score than would be normal for the pilot being exposed.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.

It's T4 for two reasons.

1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.

2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.

At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.

The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.

And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.

That's why you make it cheap as hell, so you can throw flocks of them at the enemy.

Maybe gove it Shield of Faith? Or whatever it's called.

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.

It's T4 for two reasons.

1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.

2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.

At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.

The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.

And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.

That's why you make it cheap as hell, so you can throw flocks of them at the enemy.

Maybe gove it Shield of Faith? Or whatever it's called.

"Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.

T4 MCs are literally useless.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.

I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.

It's T4 for two reasons.

1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.

2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.

At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.

The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.

And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.

That's why you make it cheap as hell, so you can throw flocks of them at the enemy.

Maybe gove it Shield of Faith? Or whatever it's called.

"Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.

T4 MCs are literally useless.

Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.

Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.

Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.

Alcibiades wrote:
Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.

Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.

Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.

Tyranid Warriors are an Infantry unit, not a Monstrous Creature Unit. They're also easier to hide for cover saves.

And I'm pretty sure Broadsides can buy invul saves and have a decent armor save.

A T4 Monstrous Creature Penitent Engine is just a bad idea. It's basically making them more fragile than they are now since they'd be wounded/killed on a 2+ vs S8 instead of glanced on a 3/penned on a 4+ vs S8.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.

For 10 points a model I would totally take them. Those missile launcher spent on Penitent Engine are missiles that will not kill my more expensive Sisters .

In the event of TEOTWAWKI and Sisters get a new codex, GW will either 1) get rid of pengines since they are metal or 2) give them a beautiful, dual-build plastic kit that will still be rubbish rules-wise

... if they were going to get rid of units because they are metal, the Sisters would no longer have an army at all.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.

Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.

Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.

Tyranid Warriors are an Infantry unit, not a Monstrous Creature Unit. They're also easier to hide for cover saves.

And I'm pretty sure Broadsides can buy invul saves and have a decent armor save.

A T4 Monstrous Creature Penitent Engine is just a bad idea. It's basically making them more fragile than they are now since they'd be wounded/killed on a 2+ vs S8 instead of glanced on a 3/penned on a 4+ vs S8.

Broadsides have a very good armour save, but that will not protect them from lascannons or meltas, which will ID them, and they're both huge and static. And getting an invul, save makes their posts cost go through the roof (to 80 points I think?).

Anyway, just an idea.

There is a lot of internet white-knighting in here... :-p

For what it is worth, my wife LOVES her Sisters of Battle, and their aesthetic. Part of what appealed to her was tough/empowered seeming women, some of which voluntarily are exposed.

Similarly, not all women are sexually repressed and feel offended by the eroticism of the female form. Again, my wife thinks units like Repentia look really cool, and she owns/painted several units.

Based on sales of books like 50 Shades of Grey, I am going to imagine that things like the aesthetic of Sisters/Adepta aren't what offend female gamers, as much as talking about them like exotic animals, only rumored to be in the wild. :-p

 Psienesis wrote:
... if they were going to get rid of units because they are metal, the Sisters would no longer have an army at all.

Well, the idea of them getting a new Codex is sorta predicated on new plastic kits. We've seen large metal or Finecast kits get axed during a complete overhaul. Again, come the apocalypse...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
"Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.

For 10 points a model I would totally take them. Those missile launcher spent on Penitent Engine are missiles that will not kill my more expensive Sisters .

True, but would you really field them at any point level higher than 10? At 20 a T4 model on a Dreadnought sized base becomes pretty laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.

Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.

Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.

Tyranid Warriors are an Infantry unit, not a Monstrous Creature Unit. They're also easier to hide for cover saves.

And I'm pretty sure Broadsides can buy invul saves and have a decent armor save.

A T4 Monstrous Creature Penitent Engine is just a bad idea. It's basically making them more fragile than they are now since they'd be wounded/killed on a 2+ vs S8 instead of glanced on a 3/penned on a 4+ vs S8.

Broadsides have a very good armour save, but that will not protect them from lascannons or meltas, which will ID them, and they're both huge and static. And getting an invul, save makes their posts cost go through the roof (to 80 points I think?).

Anyway, just an idea.

Meltas are fairly short range and weren't really on the table here (and would mince the proposed PE), and Lascannons don't make too many lists because of their points cost, and are better served firing at heavy tanks or things like the the Riptide.

If Broadsides cost 80pts with an invul, that puts them on a level field with the Penitent Engines, and I bet most people would take the Broadsides long-range firepower of the Engines CC wrecking, much as I love them.

Penitent Engines and Repentia are kinda the only ties SOB currently have to being 'ultra-religious nutbags', really the only thing showing just how dark the Imperium has become. Hope they don't scratch them.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
If Broadsides cost 80pts with an invul, that puts them on a level field with the Penitent Engines, and I bet most people would take the Broadsides long-range firepower of the Engines CC wrecking, much as I love them.

Penitent Engines and Repentia are kinda the only ties SOB currently have to being 'ultra-religious nutbags', really the only thing showing just how dark the Imperium has become. Hope they don't scratch them.

Well that and the Exorcist and the Ecclesiarchy stuff.

If anything the army needs more crazy religious stuff, not less. Less moves them more towards being watered down Marines instead of a fully realized army in my mind.