I really hope they ditch the repentia and penitent engines from SoB

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**Psienesis**

the_Armyman wrote:
It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.

Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.

I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.

Codex: Witch-Hunters wrote:
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial Eviscerators and lead into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep-seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution.

So, yep, still Sisters. Only now they are Sisters Repentia rather than Sisters Militant or Sisters Famulous or Sisters Dialogous or Sisters Pronatus or Sisters Belonging-To-Another-Type-Of-Order.

To build on the last point a bit... if they weren't still Sisters of Battle, they wouldn't be called Sisters Repentia, they'd just be called Repentia or something. There are, after all, specific units/models of Sisters of non-Militant Orders (Dialoguous perhaps most memorably) that are called Sisters "Something", denoting their status as members of an Order of the Sororitas, while not being actual Battle Sisters (which is a Sister of an Order Militant).

**jeffersonian000**

St. Celestine is a Repentia, which is why she does not wear shoes.

One point people miss is that Repentia are self-condemned. It is not that a Sister is religated to the Repentia as a punishment, it is that Repentia feel they have had a failure of faith and seek redemption in battle via ritualized repentance. Personally, I love the background of the Repentia, yet preferred them in 2nd Ed "duel-pistol solo-Sister" over their 3rd re-make (although the 3rd Ed nudes do have a certain "appeal"). For me, it's the truly useless rules we've had for the "nudes" rather than the actual modes that made them unplayable. If GW wants to re-issue the current Repentia with Smash, Hammer of Wrath, and a 5++ dodge save for a cheap enough price that makes them worth taking, I'd be fielding a unit of murder-nudes in every game!

SJ

**Plumbumbarum**

Totalwar1402 wrote:Um, no you're being really disingenuous, the theme is very much "girls in power armour".

The theme is also, first and foremost, fanatic grimdark nunz with gunz and for me they are one of the coolest things in 40k. You saying that penitent engine doesnt fit and your desire to scrap the army into boring girl ultramarines just shows how much you don't get the their mood and theme.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Religious zealots exist in other armies such as Word Bearers, Black Templars and even thematic Imperial Guard armies with Priests. If GW wanted to make an army of zealots and focused on a pure Ecclesiarchy army then why on earth would they have chosen to make them all women, wear power armor and carry bolters; essentially making them female space marines?

Because it's hard to make male nuns convincing.

Totalwar1402 wrote:You could easily represent such a force without having them be girls, have power armor or have bolters.

There is a monk component to space marines so it fits, monks and nuns all wearing power armour.

Totalwar1402 wrote:No, the core fundamental reason for this armies existence is not because GW wanted to represent the army of the Ecclesiarchy or have a religious zealot army, they exist because they wanted an all girl army in power armor. The religious fanatic theme was simply applied on top of that to try and give the army more of an identity but its an idea which follows from the core concept.

They are girls in power armor models that GW happened to decide to make religious zealots in their fluff. The models design came first, the fluff and backstory second.

Even if that's exactly how it went, for which I bet you have no source except your own guess, what matters is that they added the identity and found that great way to represent women of the imperium. It doesnt matter at all that they were born out of need for girls in power armour and is no reason to reduce them back to that basic theme.

Btw not sure if you know but the main sob helmet is straight ripoff from nemesis the warlock comic book so puting them all into power armour you get an army of boring half ripoffs with tits.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters of Battle. They're flaggleants who are cast out of the order, this is why they have their armor taken off them to symbolise them not being SoB anymore. The problem is that this makes them embarrassingly bad, even with FNP which most guns in the game ignore anyway. Why they can't simply wear armor and just have their robs shredded with eviserators is beyond me. They just don't fit in with the rest of the army because they don't wear armor. I already have an army of half naked wychs, I don't care another one.

You can fix that with rules or point cost. No need to remove them.

Totalwar1402 wrote:My main gripe is the idea of GW redoing kits like the repentia and Penitent Engine rather than make better CC units which are actual sisters of battle.

Thats my main hope for sob, also that theyre going to redo them good so I won't have to hunt for old penitent engine model.

**BlackTalos**

the_Armyman wrote:
It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.

Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.

I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.

I would really suggest THIS BOOK for any who wish to really get into some good Sisters of Battle fluff.

From the fluff contained therein: Sister Repentia ARE Sisters of Battle. They can repent after a few days and actually return to being Sisters (big "IF").

Now for the more detailed spoilery part, i suggest you do not read this if you are considering reading the book:

Spoiler:

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
St. Celestine is a Repentia

Used to be, actually.

jeffersonian000 wrote:
One point people miss is that Repentia are self-condemned. It is not that a Sister is religated to the Repentia as a punishment, it is that Repentia feel they have had a failure of faith and seek redemption in battle via ritualized repentance.

No, both can happen. Some are self-condemned, other are forced into it.

**fox-light713**

the_Armyman wrote:
It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.

Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.

I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.

The Repentia Mistress are part of the SoB as they weir the same pattern power armor only worn by the SoB.

**J3f**

How I would revamp the rules for Repentia and Penitent Engines (and every other Sororitas unit) is clearly laid out in my Codex Sisters of Battle: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

I made Repentia 15 point Troops with the best of all the rules they've had through all the editions. They have Feel No Pain, They're insanely fast with the ability to move +D6" and can charge after running. Their Act of Faith gives them a 4++ and it allows them to strike at least once in combat. You can take up to 20 of them and they get a new Mistress of Repentance Special Character upgrade a la Sergent Tellion, Mistress Romelia serves to face challenges and add a couple Flamer templates to the unit. You can even Load them up in the Rhino Advancer, an open topped Rhino that can transport 20.

As for the Penitent Engine, I increased its front armour to 12, gave it back Battle Frenzy and added Rampage and the special rule that allows Repentia to move +D6" and charge after running. It's now an Elite too.

I made the rest of the Codex as diverse as possible while still keeping the Sisters of Battle front and center. To that end I gave them back Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors, Confessors, Zealots(HQ command Squad not troops), and Arco-flagellants (Elites). I've also added several other completely new units to fill in all the gaps Sisters had while maintaining their fluff and feel as best I could.

**jeffersonian000**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
St. Celestine is a Repentia

Used to be, actually.

Ah! But does Celestine think she's a Repentia or not? She dawned the armor, draw the sword, and then continued with her penance, one might say. /wink

jeffersonian000 wrote:
One point people miss is that Repentia are self-condemned. It is not that a Sister is religated to the Repentia as a punishment, it is that Repentia feel they have had a failure of faith and seek redemption in battle via ritualized repentance.

No, both can happen. Some are self-condemned, other are forced into it.

"Forced" might be the case of being heavily implied. We see this in one of the Sister novels where the Sister Superior is being leaned on to step down for her squad's failure, to which one of the squad volunteers for Repentia to absolve to squad of guilt. Then later on, when the actual Repentia are lead into battle, there is a certain implied envy on the part of the Battle Sisters watching. It seemed to me that Repentia is an accepted way out of a perceived lack of faith, much in the way of an honorable death mixed with a possible chance of redemption.

SJ

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

So, apparently, nobody shares my opinion of what Repentia should be?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful.
Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.

**Mr Morden**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, apparently, nobody shares my opinion of what Repentia should be?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful.
Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.

I like it this alot

It was interesting that despite all the great fluff and new image is the Shield of Baal books no mention of them............

**BlackTalos**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, apparently, nobody shares my opinion of what Repentia should be?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful.
Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.

I would disagree: I think what really gives the Repentia their "style" is the massive eviscerator. I modded my version of the models to increase it further (The standard models have "eviscerators" that are the size on chainswords).

They are Sisters who have nothing left BUT a chainblade, and by the Emperor it's massive!

I cannot see them as "leftovers" or canon-fodder as you describe them... When you say "in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time" i'd put it completely the other way: Standard Sisters should feel honored to be able to buy time for the revered warriors that are the repentia to reach the enemy. They are Sisters who, mostly by choice, decided to give themselves completely to the Emperor and not hide behind power armour. Elite Warriors, who, once they have repented would come back at the rank of canoness at the bare minimum, but all are would-be Saint Celestines!

**jeffersonian000**

On Penitent Engines, since those have gotten less talk time. Back in the day, when 2nd Ed was king and Sisters the new flavor of the month, I had hoped and prayed for a Sister Dread, lighter than a SM Dread, though faster, armed with duel-Meltas and twin Stormbolters (Meltas could be fired as Flamers back then). Then along came 3rd, and Witch Hunters, and the Penitent Engine, to which I was like "OMG, my Dread idea! Only with Saw Blades and Flamers! Why the F is it open top!?!? And why is a heretic strapped to the front all Mad Max style!?!?!?" And I never bought one.

Yet, Kiromazov presented an excellent opportunity to represent a Celestian Squad as a single model monstrous creature, a Sister piloting a "throne" with a twin-linked heavy weapon, Eviserator, good Toughness, good Strength, and a 2+ save ... only to see DreadKnights come out for the GK and I got all frawny-faced.

Next were the terribad mini-Dexes, which got me thinking "you know, Sisters have a lot a units identical to those Blood Angels over there, and they have flying Dreadnoughts with spears and shields, and Flamers! My little Ladies are now the Angelic Host!" To which, I started planning out my counts as Bangel army using Battle Sisters, Immolator-Razorbacks, Sister Rhinos, Whirlwind-Exorcists, Death Company Repentia, "Penitent" Furioso "Thrones", "Retribution" "Thrones", "Celestian" Librarian "Thrones", and the Sanguinator "St. Celestine". And let me tell you, I had a blast!

If GW does new rules for the Penitent Engine, please please please don't F it up like they've done twice now!!!!!

SJ

**the_Armyman**

Psienesis wrote:

Codex: Witch-Hunters wrote:
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial Eviscerators and lead into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep-seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution.

So, yep, still Sisters. Only now they are Sisters Repentia rather than Sisters Militant or Sisters Famulous or Sisters Dialogous or Sisters Pronatus or Sisters Belonging-To-Another-Type-Of-Order.

Hey, I think we agree.

To build on the last point a bit... if they weren't still Sisters of Battle, they wouldn't be called Sisters Repentia, they'd just be called Repentia or something. There are, after all, specific units/models of Sisters of non-Militant Orders (Dialoguous perhaps most memorably) that are called Sisters "Something", denoting their status as members of an Order of the Sororitas, while not being actual Battle Sisters (which is a Sister of an Order Militant).

Nope, now you contradict yourself. You can't be a Sister of Battle and a Repentia at the same time. Dialogus and Hospitallers are not Sisters.of Battle.

I think you're misunderstanding my use of the term "Sister". The Repentia are exiled from their order. They still remain a Sister, but they now become a Sister Repentia. I guess from the Order Repentia, though, I've never seen that referred to as an Order like the Hospitallers or Famulous. So, she is no longer a Battle Sister. No longer of the Order Militant. No longer part of the Adepta Sororitas. The Adepta Sororitas are the Sisters of Battle/Battle Sister/Sisters I'm referring to; the ones the Codex is named after. The Orders Famulous, Hospitallers, and Repentia are not Adepta Sororitas. I'm assuming that since those Orders are sorta doled-out to where they're needed, much like the Missionarius Galaxia, they're part of the Ecclesiarchy's over-arching authority.

If I was unclear as to how I was using the term Sister, my apologies. A Repentia's a Sister, but not a Battle Sister.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

BlackTalos wrote:
They are Sisters who have nothing left BUT a chainblade, and by the Emperor it's massive!

+1/2 str AP4 unwieldy. Maybe -1 WS.

BlackTalos wrote:
I cannot see them as "leftovers" or canon-fodder as you describe them... When you say "in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time" i'd put it completely the other way: Standard Sisters should feel honored to be able to buy time for the revered warriors that are the repentia to reach the enemy. They are Sisters who, mostly by choice, decided to give themselves completely to the Emperor and not hide behind power armour. Elite Warriors, who, once they have repented would come back at the rank of canoness at the bare minimum, but all are would-be Saint Celestines!

Go to the lowest of the low before going back to the top. Very religious fanatic-like. 99% of them dies, those that do not are obviously destined for greatness.
Repentia are not honored by the way, they are outcasts.

**BlackTalos**

@the_Armyman

I am guessing you are reading the posts 1 by 1 and replying in time? You asked for canon fluff on what the Repentia are and two of us gave you the answer a few posts up.
(That they ARE sisters just like any other, just in need of "ME" time)

@jeffersonian000

I've not been with Sisters that long, so cannot really comment on such, but i agree that a re-ruling of A LOT is needed for Sisters. It might happen, or they just get out the lazy way and hope a few Special Rules help out the model:
"- Oh look, we've given the Penitent engines Void Shields, because REASONS. Happy now?"
lol

**SisterSydney**

Nitpick: "Adepta Sororitas" includes both Battle Sisters (the Orders Militant) and the Sisters Hospitaller, Dialogus, Famulous, Pronatus, etc (non-militant Orders). Presumably the Repentia count as Adepta Sororitas but not Battle Sisters, as if they were their own specialist Order.

“The Sisterhood is most commonly associated with the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant. However, there are several major non-militant Orders of the Adepta Sororitas, most notably the Orders Famulous, Hospitaller and Dialogus, as well as many other minor Orders that may only number a hundred or so Sisters. Each Order dedicates itself to a specific role..."

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Adepta Sororitas (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2014-06-24. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=724807644

**BlackTalos**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
They are Sisters who have nothing left BUT a chainblade, and by the Emperor it's massive!

+1/2 str AP4 unwieldy. Maybe -1 WS.

BlackTalos wrote:
I cannot see them as "leftovers" or canon-fodder as you describe them... When you say "in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time" i'd put it completely the other way: Standard Sisters should feel honored to be able to buy time for the revered warriors that are the repentia to reach the enemy. They are Sisters who, mostly by choice, decided to give themselves completely to the Emperor and not hide behind power armour. Elite Warriors, who, once they have repented would come back at the rank of canoness at the bare minimum, but all are would-be Saint Celestines!

Go to the lowest of the low before going back to the top. Very religious fanatic-like. 99% of them dies, those that do not are obviously destined for greatness.
Repentia are not honored by the way, they are outcasts.

The book i referred to earlier seems to point them out in a slightly different light.

Yes they are Outcasts, and "Shamed", but the other Sisters actually respect them quite a lot.
So, not honoured as in "praised, loved, *to show courteous behaviour towards*" definition of honoured, but the main definition:
"hold in great respect, hold in high esteem, have a high regard for"

Even if they don't show their affection, it's still there =P

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SisterSydney wrote:
Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=724807644

Lol, hey you talking about sisters! let me link you the Codex.
I think that if the poster did not know of that link his argument would be completely void already =P

I will recommend the selfless Plug though!
Great Book, i'd recommend it if you ever even considered playing them!

**the_Armyman**

BlackTalos wrote:
@the_Armyman

I am guessing you are reading the posts 1 by 1 and replying in time? You asked for canon fluff on what the Repentia are and two of us gave you the answer a few posts up.
(That they ARE sisters just like any other, just in need of "ME" time)

Novels are not canon. Ask anyone who reads Star Wars or Star Trek fiction. Authors take liberties with their background material all the time. However, arguing GW canon borders on ridiculous since they change and retcon stuff to sell models on a regular basis, so I'll just keep my opinions as to why Sisters Repentia are not Sisters of Battle to myself

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

BlackTalos wrote:
Yes they are Outcasts, and "Shamed", but the other Sisters actually respect them quite a lot.

Yeah, they respect repentia because they know the repentia made the final sacrifice and will just run into the meatgrinder to save their battle sisters some time

.
Well, I like it that way personally. But realistically, GW will not change how eviscerator work, or make Repentia viable, in the next 10 years anyway, so…

**BlackTalos**

the_Armyman wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:
@the_Armyman

I am guessing you are reading the posts 1 by 1 and replying in time? You asked for canon fluff on what the Repentia are and two of us gave you the answer a few posts up.
(That they ARE sisters just like any other, just in need of "ME" time)

Novels are not canon. Ask anyone who reads Star Wars or Star Trek fiction. Authors take liberties with their background material all the time. However, arguing GW canon borders on ridiculous since they change and retcon stuff to sell models on a regular basis, so I'll just keep my opinions as to why Sisters Repentia are not Sisters of Battle to myself

I guess you are right (even if i really like that book), and for that i went to have a look at the Codex, which can only be the "pure canon" right? Guess what i found?
Pretty much what i was saying lol:

"Although extremely rare, those few who return to the fold of their Order are held with great esteem by the Sisterhood.
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek forgiveness in the Emperor’s eyes by treading the path of a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain. Indeed, some Battle Sisters willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgression in order to join the ranks of the Repentia."

**Psienesis**

the_Armyman wrote:
Psienesis wrote:

Codex: Witch-Hunters wrote:
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial Eviscerators and lead into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep-seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution.

So, yep, still Sisters. Only now they are Sisters Repentia rather than Sisters Militant or Sisters Famulous or Sisters Dialogous or Sisters Pronatus or Sisters Belonging-To-Another-Type-Of-Order.

Hey, I think we agree.

To build on the last point a bit... if they weren't still Sisters of Battle, they wouldn't be called Sisters Repentia, they'd just be called Repentia or something. There are, after all, specific units/models of Sisters of non-Militant Orders (Dialoguous perhaps most memorably) that are called Sisters "Something", denoting their status as members of an Order of the Sororitas, while not being actual Battle Sisters (which is a Sister of an Order Militant).

Nope, now you contradict yourself. You can't be a Sister of Battle and a Repentia at the same time. Dialogus and Hospitallers are not Sisters.of Battle.

I think you're misunderstanding my use of the term "Sister". The Repentia are exiled from their order. They still remain a Sister, but they now become a Sister Repentia. I guess from the Order Repentia, though, I've never seen that referred to as an Order like the Hospitallers or Famulous. So, she is no longer a Battle Sister. No longer of the Order Militant. No longer part of the Adepta Sororitas. The Adepta Sororitas are the Sisters of Battle/Battle Sister/Sisters I'm referring to; the ones the Codex is named after. The Orders Famulous, Hospitallers, and Repentia are not Adepta Sororitas. I'm assuming that since those Orders are sorta doled-out to where they're needed, much like the Missionarius Galaxia, they're part of the Ecclesiarchy's over-arching authority.

If I was unclear as to how I was using the term Sister, my apologies. A Repentia's a Sister, but not a Battle Sister.

Except we apparently don't, since you had previously said:

Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.

Which is incorrect on its face, as all members of the Adepta Sororitas are Sisters, but only those of the Orders Militant are Sisters of Battle.

**insaniak**

the_Armyman wrote:
Novels are not canon. Ask anyone who reads Star Wars or Star Trek fiction.

Star Wars and Star Trek novels aren't canon because their publishers say they're not. Not because not being canon is some intrinsic property of novels. Either of those could be canon if their publishers decided to make them such, as was 'sort of' the case with the Star Wars novels until Disney took over.

40K novels are canon, because their publisher says so. They just aren't always in-universe 'factual' and may be contradictory.

**SisterSydney**

Actually, GW's official position on what's 40K canon is that there is no canon:

Spoiler:

Lynata wrote:
So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..

I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?

[edit] Oh, I forgot, I should write a bit about how I deal with the subject myself ...

Me, I'm staying as close to the GW studio fluff as possible, meaning the contents of codices, the rulebooks, magazines such as White Dwarf or Citadel Journal (RIP) and the stuff hosted on the various websites (free PDFs and short articles). Aside from me "growing up" with the tone and style of the studio's own writing, I also believe that this approach keeps me more compatible to the majority of future products from this origin than if I were to embrace one of the outsourced outlets of fluff instead, simply because all the GW stuff is written by the same circle of people (aside from the occasional change in personnel that occurs over the years), compared to the ideas and interpretations of the many, many different individual writers that work on novels etc. Many cooks, broth, etc. Even now, after over two decades, you still find references and even straight copied passages of text from the earliest days of the franchise in the newest rulebook. That is a consistency unparalleled by any other source of fluff, and I'm all for consistency.

Last but not least, even with the "laissez-faire" approach that GW has taken on the setting, it seems that people - including other authors - tend to look to GW for orientation first. This can be witnessed on outsourced material quickly picking up on, for example, the "Newcrons", rather than ignoring this pseudo-retcon. This exchange of ideas actually works both ways, but GW seems notably less likely to adopt something from BL (etc.) than the other way around. And don't count on seeing the contents of one BL novel referenced in another, except perhaps when they're part of a series .. and even then you'll have conflicts.
When it comes to GW sources, I'm also going with "newer source overrides older source" in case of any contradictions that cannot be worked around.

That doesn't mean that I do not incorporate anything that has not been printed elsewhere into my own personal interpretation of the 41st millennium, however. There are a number of aspects from various novels and games that I have adopted into my perspective as well, all depending on how cool I subjectively thought they were, as well as (perhaps even more important) how well they fit in or can be made to fit in. In this, I do not incorporate the entire product but just the things I liked.

The cherrypicking from non-GW sources is something I rarely discuss here, however, simply because that is even more personal and subjective than my preference for GW fluff, which I also regard as a sort of "common ground" between us. So, whenever I'm posting about fluff, consider it to be referring to GW material. Any exceptions to this will be specially marked by me, and usually take the form of suggestions of something to potentially draw inspiration from if the reader likes what he or she sees.

**insaniak**

Interesting. That's a slightly changed message from the last statement I saw. Works just as well, though, if you're trying to avoid having a continuity editor.

**Melissia**

Like in real life, historical sources in 40k are often massively biased, and each person must decide for themselves what the truth is.

**SisterSydney**

"What is truth?" said jesting Pilate -- and would not stay for an answer.
-- Sir Francis Bacon

**the_Armyman**

I'll grudgingly accept that Repentia are Adepta Sororitas. Yay.

**Nightlord1987**

Let's hope they get rid of that Sister Dialogus blow up doll model instead....

**ionusx**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Let me explain. This army would never have carried on its perpetual half life (with the bare minimum of prodding from GW lorewise) if it weren't for the fact that they are to all intents and purposes female space marines. A space marine is a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. A sister of battle is a girl...and also a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. Because of this, again despite minimal prodding from GW most fans know what Sisters of Battle are.

So a big part of the look of the army should be that they all wear some form of power armour. In fact rules wise they are the only non space marine army to give 3+ armor to their basic troops (since the change to Necron warriors).

As described above, repentia and pentitent engines do not fit with the general look or underlying theme of sisters of battle. Yes, they're religious fanatics and have the gothic look. But not to that extent and dispensing of armor gets rid of their whole identity as sisters of battle. It is the main distinguishing feature of sisters of battle and differentiates them from imperial guard for example. Whilst the Penitent engine just looks plain stupid with the pilot totally exposed. Standing alongside basic sisters the units look out of place and you wouldn't think they were part of the same army. Unlike for example a marine dread next to a regular marine. I really really hope they cut those units or at least don't bother updating them.

I also dislike the notion that the armies elite units with some of the best equipment should be its rejects...rather than regular sisters of battle. Surely the best equipment and the best trained units would be exemplars of being SoB.

Plus in such a small army, giving two unit slots over to non SoB units is just stupid. Especially because if they did do a plastic release then doing things like repentia and PE in plastic will take away attention from actual SoB units.

thats really all they are now that they cant sell sisters of battle in a store and attract the attentions of radical feminists. im going to be you anything thats one of the primary reasons the sisters are being buried as an army now. their too stupid to think up a way to use the sisters beyond eyecandy bdsm fetish nuns and as a result leave them locked up in the broom closet because if they brought them out now they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage. GW has enough problems the last thing they want is to get nailed to a wall in a PR fiasco that will only ever end badly. in my opinion the unit that need to go the most is the repentia. the pentient engine actually isnt that bad, perhaps in need of a new model but she is passable. the repentia and their mistress need to go; they need to be wiped from lore and from table rules. when they are gone i feel a lot of the issues people would have with the sisterhood would go away from a public opinion standpoint.

**ClockworkZion**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
Let's hope they get rid of that Sister Dialogus blow up doll model instead....

She just needs a better face sculpt. If she was part of a multi-part plastic kit you could even use a different head to avoid that issue completely.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ionusx wrote:
thats really all they are now that they cant sell sisters of battle in a store and attract the attentions of radical feminists.

Experiance has taught me that the attention of the feminist community, much less the extreme ends of it (like rad fems) isn't a great target market. It's interests as a movement don't line up well with the customer base as a whole. Sure individual feminists might, but the movement as a whole is not the customer 40k needs to try to pander to if it wants to come out of it as "40k".

ionusx wrote:
im going to be you anything thats one of the primary reasons the sisters are being buried as an army now. their too stupid to think up a way to use the sisters beyond eyecandy bdsm fetish nuns and as a result leave them locked up in the broom closet because if they brought them out now they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage.

Sisters have one of the most conservative looking depictions of females in fiction. They are covered in (mostly, excusing the stupid boobplate) practical armor, aren't driven by sex, aren't sex objects, kick ass, take names and burn planets as needed and the only "BDSM" aspects you could argue have to do with aspects taken from religious penance rituals (like self-flogging and hair shirts).

Seriously, anyone who argues that Sisters are just BDSM nuns don't understand BDSM or religion enough to know what they're talking about.

ionusx wrote:
GW has enough problems the last thing they want is to get nailed to a wall in a PR fiasco that will only ever end badly. in my opinion the unit that need to go the most is the repentia. the pentient engine actually isnt that bad, perhaps in need of a new model but she is passable. the repentia and their mistress need to go; they need to be wiped from lore and from table rules. when they are gone i feel a lot of the issues people would have with the sisterhood would go away from a public opinion standpoint.

Repentia don't "need to go". They need to be updated sure, but they don't need to be dropped.

The issues with the army publicly aren't the Repentia either (seriously, if I had to point anywhere, I'd point a finger at Dark Eldar if you really want to complain about BDSM and females wearing impractical outfits). It's the cost of the army ($90 gets you a basic squad. Play Marines and you get 2x 10 model squads plus bits for the same cost), the fact they haven't seen new models since 3rd edition, and rules that keep watering down aspects of the army (and the last codex seemingly only existing to get us to stop bitching we didn't have one in print while they removed more out of stock model options from the book). There is also the limited range (which is shrinking as they aren't renewing molds anymore it seems), lack of flexibility in the army, a lack of responsiveness to threats like flyers, and even when Sisters do show up to things (the Shield of Baal) they don't even get rules for anything.

So there is a lot holding the army back before you even think about the design of the Repentia.