Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alcibiades wrote:

Broadsides have a very good armour save, but that will not protect them from lascannons or meltas, which will ID them, and they're both huge and static. And getting an invul, save makes their posts cost go through the roof (to 80 points I think?).

Anyway, just an idea.

90 points.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Similarly, not all women are sexually repressed and feel offended by the eroticism of the female form.

Blah blah blah. One does not need to be sexually repressed to be fed up by overused, silly, ridiculous tropes.

With the repentia and penitent engine, maybe it's worth thinking about what they are -- which is "buy time" units.

The GW designers seem to have given short-range shooting armies (like Necrons, Nids to some extent, and Sisters) lots of "buy time" units. By which I mean that they are supposed to give the rest of the army time to move up into shooting range unmolested. They are generally fast and/or have Infiltrate, have a lot of damage output, but aren't very durable. This means Genestealers, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Lictors. Their job is to force the enemy to deal with them instead of the bulk of the advancing army.

(That most of them seem to be overpriced, according to most players, is probably an indication of the value GW sees in such units.)

In the case of Sisters, Repentia and Penitent Engines seem intended to play this role.

Does this seem right to the more experienced players?

Wraiths are durable.
They ahnd 3+ invuls and 2 wounds. Give them a D. Lord with weave and they can now tank S8 AP3 attacks (which would have otherwise instant kill them) with impunity.
In fact, I would say wraiths are slightly under priced.

Flayed ones are still crap though. An expendable "buy time" unit should not take up a precious elite slot, and there isn't really incentive to target them because they just aren't that effective in combat.

Scarabs are more of a distraction unit, imo. They are pretty fast, and are a threat to vehicles, meaning that they are a worthy target to go after.

They do take a fast attack slot though. I would have preferred it if they didn't take any slot at all, considering how there are supposed to be so many of them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wraiths are durable.
They ahnd 3+ invuls and 2 wounds. Give them a D. Lord with weave and they can now tank S8 AP3 attacks (which would have otherwise instant kill them) with impunity.
In fact, I would say wraiths are slightly under priced.

Well they are more durable against high-AP attacks, but against bolters or lasguns they are just 2 marines.

I agree that they are underpriced, not least because they make Triarch Praetorians totally pointless.

Anyway my point wasn't about whether units are priced correctly or not, but about "battlefield roles" as envisioned by GW.

Well yeah, there are cannon fodder units, but those units are usually pretty cheap and come in large numbers, or have a fair number of wounds for their points.

Grots, rippers, conscripts and cultists come to mind.

There are also what I like to call "suicide squads," which are quasi-expendable units which are relatively inexpensive, who are meant to hurt the enemy a lot, but usually die in the process.

Fire dragons are an example of this.

Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.

Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.

Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.

Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.

Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.

Yeah, that's what I was thought. Don't they have eviscerators though, and can deal a bit of damage before dying horribly?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.

Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.

Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.

Yeah, that's what I was thought. Don't they have eviscerators though, and can deal a bit of damage before dying horribly?

Aren't eviscerators unweildy? So not only can they not shoot, they are unlikely to deal damage before dying in CC to anything remotely capable

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.

Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.

Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.

Yeah, that's what I was thought. Don't they have eviscerators though, and can deal a bit of damage before dying horribly?

Aren't eviscerators unweildy? So are unlikely to deal damage before dying anyway

That is an unfortunate possibility, yes

They are still great theoretical tank killers though. Tanks can't punch back

They can theoretically murder a lot of things but tend to fail to deliver on that theory as a they can't get to their targets effectively without requiring whole other units to be their screens.

Not good at being chaff, not good at being scary murderers.

If you can get a full squad of Repentia to charge a target, it will die. Getting a full squad to charge is hard...

 Furyou Miko wrote:
If you can get a full squad of Repentia to charge a target, it will die. Getting a full squad to charge is hard...

Since losing the standard FnP, getting one to make the charge is hard. Getting a full squad across is like playing Dark Souls with your feet while blindfolded.

I'd make Penitent Engines able to be taken as Elites or Heavies (Space Marines can get Dreadnaughts as Elites or Heavies).

I'd also give the PE assault grenades, so it can at least strike before Unwieldy if it has to charge through terrain (Ironclad Dreadnaughts can purchase Assault Launchers which give them the benefit of both Assault and Defensive Grenades).

Then I'd increase the front armour to make it 12/11/10 Open Topped. Expand the Unstoppable rule (which currently makes it immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned) to also make it ignore Immobilised results on a die roll (5+?). I'd up the point cost from 80 to 100-110.

I think that would balance it much better compared to other Close Combat walkers. Soul Grinders and Ironclads are both AV13 walkers (which are quite nasty in CC since krak grenades can't hurt them), Maulerfiends have the benefits of the Demon, Fleet and It Will Not Die rules and Deff Dreads are cheaper with AV12/12/10 and not being open-topped.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
If you can get a full squad of Repentia to charge a target, it will die. Getting a full squad to charge is hard...

Since losing the standard FnP, getting one to make the charge is hard. Getting a full squad across is like playing Dark Souls with your feet while blindfolded.

What if...you use a rhino to block line of sight to them, and move the rhino out of the way before making their charge?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if...you use a rhino to block line of sight to them, and move the rhino out of the way before making their charge?

Rhino explodes, kill 4 repentias, now the enemy has line of sight and there is difficult terrain in front of your unit.

Every time? Even with smokes?

It is a rhino. If the rhino explodes and take out 4 repentia, it destroyed more than its own point cost. I am fairly sure the enemy will have enough firepower to destroy ONE rhino, which is one of the most fragile transport in the game.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if...you use a rhino to block line of sight to them, and move the rhino out of the way before making their charge?

Rhino explodes, kill 4 repentias, now the enemy has line of sight and there is difficult terrain in front of your unit.

Also you're using another until to screen a poorly balanced on just to try and get it up the board making it even more of a points sink.

Allied land raiders are beautiful though.

But that's a lot of points, and if you're bringing a Land Raider, you might as well support it with Bloodclaws or something, rather than using it as a bulldozer.

Bloodclaws are never going to have the damage output of an on-target unit of Repentia though.

Giving the thing AV12 (or any AV -- that's why I made it an MC) sticks in my craw. It's got an unarmoured person stuck to the front!

Alcibiades wrote:
Giving the thing AV12 (or any AV -- that's why I made it an MC) sticks in my craw. It's got an unarmoured person stuck to the front!

AV11 Open Topped perhaps? I'd rather see it stay a walker personally...

11/11/10, WS3 or 4, S5 (2x DCCW), I5, A3, 3HP
Open Topped, Rampage, It Will Not Die, Move Through Cover.
Elite Slot, Squadrons of 1-3, 60pts each.

As I see a Penitent Engine, it's not AV12 like a sealed Dreadnought - it's actually a lot closer to an AV10 (non-Armored) Sentinel (35 pts w/ HF) or AV11 Kan (55 pts w/ S7 Klaw & Skorcha).

Pilot is a Repentia so WS4 BS4 I3 base skills for consistency in theme.

It's monstrously strong (S6) and fighty (A3), but ungainly (I3). Weapons are Power Axes(S+2 AP2) with integral Flamers.

Penitent Engine
WS4 BS4 S6(8) AV11/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP3 Ld10
2x Power Axe (AP2) (w/ Flamer)
Open-Topped, Fleet, Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), Hammer of Wrath

Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.

In HtH, they don't need S10, which switches the role to anti-armor, but paired Axes gives +1A and S8 for Instant Death against all MEQs in HtH; AP2 to give TEQs a pause in HtH. Flamers vs HFs keep the cost down a bit more, and will do just fine against massed GEQs before wading in.

Carry the core Repentia rules: Fleet, Rage and Shield of Faith over MTC, Rampage & IWND. Similar function, but better for army consistency.

When the PEs charge, they have Hammer of Wrath and Rage for +2A = 6x S8 AP2 attacks per model. Good stuff!

55 points based on 35-pt Sentinel with +0 swap HF to 2x Flamer, +20 pts Axes

A PE is definitely not a Walker. This is not a organic, sentient thing like a Wraithlord. It is a piloted machine, akin to a Dreadnought. The exposed pilot makes it Open-Topped.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Pilot is a Repentia

Thematically, I link PEs and Repentia together.

If I am making a PE, then I should leverage the Repentia rules for consistency.

Consider how C:CSM leverages Daemon and Daemon Engine for a consistent set of rules. Same idea here.

To me, "Penitent" == WS3 BS4 Rage, Fleet, Shield of Faith (6++).

Simple.


BTW, to me, Penitent is an expansion of "Sister" == WS4 BS4 Shield of Faith (6++)

Reduce the mental workload on the player by having common groups of stats run through the army.

It's also why the PE has S6 base, doubling the S3 of a basic Sister.

Except the fluff of the PE is a heretic mounted to the torture machine and then thrown at the enemy.

That Fluff detail is completely irrelevant from a rules and stats POV, which is all that I really care about.

It makes no difference if the person is a "heretic". It is still a penitent of some sort, within a Sisters context, so Sisters rules generally apply.

Trying to capture every nuance in a "special snowflake" way creates unnecessary rules bloat and complication where none is necessary.

There is no obvious reason why a PE-bound "heretic" would need different stats or rules from a Repentia, other than to be different purely for the sake of being different.

If it makes you feel better, please change the word "Repentia" in my previous post to "penitent" and we can move on.

Penitent Engine
WS4 BS4 S6(8) AV11/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP3 Ld10
2x Power Axe (AP2) (w/ Flamer)
Open-Topped, Fleet, Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), Hammer of Wrath

Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.

... because it shouldn't get Shield of Faith or an Act of Faith! The person strapped to the front of this thing simply lacks the purity of faith the Sisters do... and is, in fact, being injected with piety, directly to the central nervous system.

... unless that AoF was "Apotheosis", which causes the Penitent Engine to explode in a ball of holy fire, centering a Large Blast Marker on it and causing a S10 hit to all models caught under the blast.