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Relapse wrote:

 JOHIRA wrote:

Spoiler:

I think they're very well-executed models compared to what GW has been doing lately. They fall short though of "great", for the same reason every GW multi-part plastic is going to fall short of "great"... they don't look like they're truly bodies in motion. Rather, they look like mannequins posed in the manner of how a school boy might think a body in motion might look if they've never tried to move athletically themselves.

It all comes down to GW's reliance on multi-part plastics. You'll never get a body that truly looks like it's in motion as long as you design all the parts of that body as separate pieces that have no relationship to each other. The human body isn't some robot machine where every limb moves completely independently, it's an armature sheathed in overlapping muscles that must balance against each other to keep the form together.

Which, if GW plastics were super-cheap, would make this sort of complaint completely irrelevant. If the Harlequin Troupe box was half its current price, I'd say it was a tremendous value and be totally willing to ignore the shortfalls in the sculpts. But when the company wants to charge top-dollar for average-quality results, I'm going to take my business to the plethora of sculptors out there who know what a human-like body in motion actually looks like. Even if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models. Especially if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models, because single-pose is the only way to really ensure that your model truly looks like a human-like body in motion.

You keep referring to the human body. Eldar are not human, so your comparison makes as much sense as saying a sculpture of an ape is bad because it doesn't match the way a human would move.

While what you're saying is, of course, correct, it doesn't take account of the fact that the only reference we have for bipedal, upright, humanoid motion is ourselves.

We have a deeply ingrained sense of what looks "right" and what looks "off" and justifying it feeling off by "they're not human" is ok, but won't make the poses feel any more correct.

I often have a similar discussion about cavalry models, having grown up in a horsey household and ridden myself when I was (much) younger, I often find myself more sensitive to inaccuracies in posing than those who haven't spent so much time on and around horses.

The difference here, of course, is we're all intimately familiar with how humanoids are supposed to look.

Personally, I think they're a decent kit, but they're lacking the sprinkling of unobtanium models need to get bought if they don't have an immediate gaming relevance for me.

Relapse wrote:

 JOHIRA wrote:
I think they're very well-executed models compared to what GW has been doing lately. They fall short though of "great", for the same reason every GW multi-part plastic is going to fall short of "great"... they don't look like they're truly bodies in motion. Rather, they look like mannequins posed in the manner of how a school boy might think a body in motion might look if they've never tried to move athletically themselves.

It all comes down to GW's reliance on multi-part plastics. You'll never get a body that truly looks like it's in motion as long as you design all the parts of that body as separate pieces that have no relationship to each other. The human body isn't some robot machine where every limb moves completely independently, it's an armature sheathed in overlapping muscles that must balance against each other to keep the form together.

Which, if GW plastics were super-cheap, would make this sort of complaint completely irrelevant. If the Harlequin Troupe box was half its current price, I'd say it was a tremendous value and be totally willing to ignore the shortfalls in the sculpts. But when the company wants to charge top-dollar for average-quality results, I'm going to take my business to the plethora of sculptors out there who know what a human-like body in motion actually looks like. Even if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models. Especially if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models, because single-pose is the only way to really ensure that your model truly looks like a human-like body in motion.

You keep referring to the human body. Eldar are not human, so your comparison makes as much sense as saying a sculpture of an ape is bad because it doesn't match the way a human would move.

As a sculpter myself I hate when people use this old dead argument. They are called elves, but they are the human form, period. While I am happy with the models, at 40 dollars for 6 plus bits I think they are fine. A premier individual pose would sell for at least 10 a pop and you'd start to require doubles. Though allowing for alternate weapons and heads would fix that problem too. Clearly GW is capable of making fantastically posed multipart models because one only needs to look at the dark eldar range. I personally will use a clown box and a wych kit to make 16 for ~60 dollars. Much more cost effective IMO.

@hilarious Red Corsair, I had the exact same thought on combining wytches and harlequins.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 JOHIRA wrote:
I think they're very well-executed models compared to what GW has been doing lately. They fall short though of "great", for the same reason every GW multi-part plastic is going to fall short of "great"... they don't look like they're truly bodies in motion. Rather, they look like mannequins posed in the manner of how a school boy might think a body in motion might look if they've never tried to move athletically themselves.

It all comes down to GW's reliance on multi-part plastics. You'll never get a body that truly looks like it's in motion as long as you design all the parts of that body as separate pieces that have no relationship to each other. The human body isn't some robot machine where every limb moves completely independently, it's an armature sheathed in overlapping muscles that must balance against each other to keep the form together.

Which, if GW plastics were super-cheap, would make this sort of complaint completely irrelevant. If the Harlequin Troupe box was half its current price, I'd say it was a tremendous value and be totally willing to ignore the shortfalls in the sculpts. But when the company wants to charge top-dollar for average-quality results, I'm going to take my business to the plethora of sculptors out there who know what a human-like body in motion actually looks like. Even if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models. Especially if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models, because single-pose is the only way to really ensure that your model truly looks like a human-like body in motion.

You keep referring to the human body. Eldar are not human, so your comparison makes as much sense as saying a sculpture of an ape is bad because it doesn't match the way a human would move.

As a sculpter myself I hate when people use this old dead argument. They are called elves, but they are the human form, period. While I am happy with the models, at 40 dollars for 6 plus bits I think they are fine. A premier individual pose would sell for at least 10 a pop and you'd start to require doubles. Though allowing for alternate weapons and heads would fix that problem too. Clearly GW is capable of making fantastically posed multipart models because one only needs to look at the dark eldar range. I personally will use a clown box and a wych kit to make 16 for ~60 dollars. Much more cost effective IMO.

I think of the old White Dwarves that had stories about Harlies that were able to move in ways that humans could not duplicate, but I see what you are saying.

 Lobukia wrote:
@hilarious Red Corsair, I had the exact same thought on combining wytches and harlequins.

Great minds and all that

I mean they went to the trouble of giving us all those extra masks and weapons

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but I think this is pretty compelling evidence that there will be a Harlequins Codex or Dataslate coming out very soon. I mean, we all think there will be, but here's some tangible evidence.

The two new kits have rules in the White Dwarf. The rules refer to the units as "Troupe" and "Solitaire" respectively.

On the official packaging, GW calls them "Harlequin Troupe" and "Harlequin Solitaire" in much the same way they call the BA Tac Squad a "Blood Angels Tactical Squad". This pretty much confirms for me that Harlequin at the very least will be a Faction, either via new Codex or Dataslate.

Well, I think the most compelling part for a Harlequin faction is more this...

There is a huge amount of variety for both posing and choosing weapons options and all of the components in this kit are fully interchangeable with the other Harlequin plastic kits.

This multi-part plastic kit contains 80 components with which to make a 6-man Harlequin Troupe. Also included are 6 x 25mm round bases and a Harlequins transfer sheet.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but I think this is pretty compelling evidence that there will be a Harlequins Codex or Dataslate coming out very soon. I mean, we all think there will be, but here's some tangible evidence.

The two new kits have rules in the White Dwarf. The rules refer to the units as "Troupe" and "Solitaire" respectively.

On the official packaging, GW calls them "Harlequin Troupe" and "Harlequin Solitaire" in much the same way they call the BA Tac Squad a "Blood Angels Tactical Squad". This pretty much confirms for me that Harlequin at the very least will be a Faction, either via new Codex or Dataslate.

Not so much. That is likely lessons learned from the CHS case. In order to be a trademark - they must use it in trade (i.e. - a product named such, not just a word in a book...). Doesn't nescessarily mean they won't be a Codex/Dataslate (there is a heck of a lot more there there with Harlequins than many of the other "Codex" releases these past couple years...) - but the existence of it is not confirmation.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, I think the most compelling part for a Harlequin faction is more this...

There is a huge amount of variety for both posing and choosing weapons options and all of the components in this kit are fully interchangeable with the other Harlequin plastic kits.

This multi-part plastic kit contains 80 components with which to make a 6-man Harlequin Troupe. Also included are 6 x 25mm round bases and a Harlequins transfer sheet.

Other kits? This is very exciting...

Fully compatible with other kits.. like another box of Harlequin troupes! Better buy at least 2.

The terminology used is really similar to the terminology used with the Wych Cult and Reaver Jetbike/Hellion units back when they were initially released.

Ordered both for my sins.

Been after a Solitaire for years. Would be cool to go back and play a game of 2nd Edition when he was last available.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I personally will use a clown box and a wych kit to make 16 for ~60 dollars. Much more cost effective IMO.

Finally! The way to "make Wyches work"!!!

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but I think this is pretty compelling evidence that there will be a Harlequins Codex or Dataslate coming out very soon. I mean, we all think there will be, but here's some tangible evidence.

The two new kits have rules in the White Dwarf. The rules refer to the units as "Troupe" and "Solitaire" respectively.

On the official packaging, GW calls them "Harlequin Troupe" and "Harlequin Solitaire" in much the same way they call the BA Tac Squad a "Blood Angels Tactical Squad". This pretty much confirms for me that Harlequin at the very least will be a Faction, either via new Codex or Dataslate.

I think even more compelling is that they now have their own tab on the web store under 'Armies'

Are those bases the regular ones? These models would benefit more from the bigger 32mms.

Yes multipart will most of the times fall short in comparison with one pose sculpts but the variety of this kit seems to compensate that flaw and balances out the deal for me.

This kit looks fantastic! Kudos to GW are due.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Are those bases the regular ones? These models would benefit more from the bigger 32mms.

From the Product Description:

This multi-part plastic kit contains 80 components with which to make a 6-man Harlequin Troupe. Also included are 6 x 25mm round bases and a Harlequins transfer sheet.

Were the Harlequins & Solitaire in the new Dark Eldar codex?

I like the models but I feel keeping them attached to their ruins makes them seem more rigid. I think some brass rod at a different angle could make these guys a lot more dynamic.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Were the Harlequins & Solitaire in the new Dark Eldar codex?

Nay, there were no Harlequins rules in the most recent DE book. They are mentioned in the fluff, but the rules were pulled.

Ah that's a shame.

Thought that was a nice touch to have them in both.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I personally will use a clown box and a wych kit to make 16 for ~60 dollars. Much more cost effective IMO.

Finally! The way to "make Wyches work"!!!

I plan to use straight wych models.
Lelith as a solitare.
Succubus as a Great Harlequin and/or shadowseer.
wyches as troops, with the various wych weapons as harlequin weapons- hydra gauntlets as harlry kiss, razor flails as caress, and net/impaler as embrace.

 Kirasu wrote:
So you're going to get a sculptor to create multiple unique models that look like eldar harlequins? Is that a real thing or you're just saying it because you had no intention of buying harlequins anyway?

Uhh... not sure where that came from. What I'm saying is I'm not going to buy these. Because I don't need to buy these, and because in my mind they aren't a quality worthy of the price. If they were far less expensive, I would buy them. But to me their unnatural posing makes them look more like toys than models, and I'm not the sort of person to drop excessive money on toys.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 JOHIRA wrote:
Even if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models. Especially if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models, because single-pose is the only way to really ensure that your model truly looks like a human-like body in motion.

To each their own, I suppose. I definitely prefer diversity and the ability to customise the models. Even at the expense of half-realistic poses and the like.

Even though I don't agree with you, that's a fair enough opinion and I appreciate you not decending into silly straw-man or defensive territory the way certain other posters have.

I guess the way I see it, based on the background I would never want a whole army of Harlequins anyway. So a well-sculpted set of say 10 unique poses should be enough to randomly select 6 or so for a box from, plus however many models are needed for special weapons.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Clearly GW is capable of making fantastically posed multipart models because one only needs to look at the dark eldar range.

I likewise appreciate your reasonable response and I've quoted the part I disagree with. I just looked through the Dark Eldar plastics and I wouldn't call them "fantastically posed". The only units that truly looks like a realistic body in motion holding weapons that have weight are the Incubi, which are monopose, and the Scourges, which are multi-pose plastics but which are really just the same pose for the most part, just with the body weight shifted to the left or right. Of the remaining plastic units, everything looks off to some degree. For the Kabalite Warriors, you see it in the way the squad leader's weapons appear to be weightless (because his body cannot be designed to be braced against the weight of them.) For the Wyches, everything just looks like a mish-mash of limbs not moving in a realistic way. And for the Wracks, well, the less said the better.

I'm not begrudging anyone who wants these figures. I'm just saying that at those prices, I don't think they're quite good enough. And given GW's approach, I don't think they ever will be.

Fun fact for you guys: I visited two gaming stores and called a third. 2 were out of WD and my store closest to me got zero shipped (they usually order 4 every week for certain people).

Figures. Normally White Dwarf is near worthless and you really can't give them away. When it actually has content in it for once, though, it's impossible to get.

Okay, now someone go find the next WD so I know how many DTs to get for my happy clown killers.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Figures. Normally White Dwarf is near worthless and you really can't give them away. When it actually has content in it for once, though, it's impossible to get.

Thus demonstrating the law of supply and demand.

Huh- just left my store a couple minutes ago. They had four still sitting on the shelf.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but I think this is pretty compelling evidence that there will be a Harlequins Codex or Dataslate coming out very soon. I mean, we all think there will be, but here's some tangible evidence.

The two new kits have rules in the White Dwarf. The rules refer to the units as "Troupe" and "Solitaire" respectively.

On the official packaging, GW calls them "Harlequin Troupe" and "Harlequin Solitaire" in much the same way they call the BA Tac Squad a "Blood Angels Tactical Squad". This pretty much confirms for me that Harlequin at the very least will be a Faction, either via new Codex or Dataslate.

Not so much. That is likely lessons learned from the CHS case. In order to be a trademark - they must use it in trade (i.e. - a product named such, not just a word in a book...). Doesn't nescessarily mean they won't be a Codex/Dataslate (there is a heck of a lot more there there with Harlequins than many of the other "Codex" releases these past couple years...) - but the existence of it is not confirmation.

It is actually interesting to note that I think all GW boxes (or at least all non-character ones) that have come out recently have had the naming format "Army Unit". Flashgitz are labelled "Ork Flashgitz", the Gorkanaught is "Ork Gorkanaught", Venomthropes are "Tyranid Venomthropes", even in WHFB the Eternal Guard are "Wood Elves Eternal Guard", Stormfiends are "Skaven Stormfiends", the only exception is the End Times characters I think.

So it would be odd for Harlequins not to be labelled "Eldar Harlequins" if they were only in Eldar. But obviously the most compelling thing is they have their own tab

I think the most compelling this is we got these rumours from a reliable source a long way out and so far they have been spot on.

If I had to choose between "The way their box is named", "Rumours have been right so far", and "They have their own army tab" for the "most compelling" category, I'd choose the latter... but only barely.

 JOHIRA wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 JOHIRA wrote:
Even if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models. Especially if that means I have to buy single-pose resin/metal models, because single-pose is the only way to really ensure that your model truly looks like a human-like body in motion.

To each their own, I suppose. I definitely prefer diversity and the ability to customise the models. Even at the expense of half-realistic poses and the like.

Even though I don't agree with you, that's a fair enough opinion and I appreciate you not decending into silly straw-man or defensive territory the way certain other posters have.

I guess the way I see it, based on the background I would never want a whole army of Harlequins anyway. So a well-sculpted set of say 10 unique poses should be enough to randomly select 6 or so for a box from, plus however many models are needed for special weapons.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Clearly GW is capable of making fantastically posed multipart models because one only needs to look at the dark eldar range.

I likewise appreciate your reasonable response and I've quoted the part I disagree with. I just looked through the Dark Eldar plastics and I wouldn't call them "fantastically posed". The only units that truly looks like a realistic body in motion holding weapons that have weight are the Incubi, which are monopose, and the Scourges, which are multi-pose plastics but which are really just the same pose for the most part, just with the body weight shifted to the left or right. Of the remaining plastic units, everything looks off to some degree. For the Kabalite Warriors, you see it in the way the squad leader's weapons appear to be weightless (because his body cannot be designed to be braced against the weight of them.) For the Wyches, everything just looks like a mish-mash of limbs not moving in a realistic way. And for the Wracks, well, the less said the better.

I'm not begrudging anyone who wants these figures. I'm just saying that at those prices, I don't think they're quite good enough. And given GW's approach, I don't think they ever will be.

I far prefer multipose and multiconfiguration, simply because it gives me many reasons to buy multiples of the same kit. To take a simple example, I have purchased in all, about 10 furioso Dreadnought boxes (you don't want to know how many Dreadnoughts of all sorts I own... most certainly 3 digits). I would never do that, if it weren't possible to (a) pose them so that they didn't all look the same and (b) build them as 3 very distinct models (Furioso, Librarian, DC Dread). The torsos, gear, etc. of the 3 builds are distinct enough modelling them is fun. And the posability makes it so that if I want several Fragiosos, for instance, they don't have to look like clones.

I appreciate that some of the poses aren't anatomically perfect, but really, we're talking about superheroic humans and superheroic aliens nearly 40 thousand years into the future, so who's to say? I think the GW poses are comic-book looking. For instance, a human would not fit into a suit of Terminator armor; shoulder joints should not be at the level of one's ears, and yet, of all GW models, Terminators are my favorite. I guess, what I am saying is, to me, anatomic correctness and accurate bodies in motion is (far) less important than cool, posable, configurable scifi toy soldiers that I can model and paint up.

Also, I don't really see the fuss at $10 models. Frankly, I think $10 / model is cheap. I buy nearly all the new release Privateer Press models, and they're certainly never cheaper than that. Infinity models are in that price strata too. Are there any other scifi models I should be looking at that are fantastic and "army-able"?

@Red Corsair - I would agree with you on the Dark Eldar collection. I have collected every model made for DE since their inception simply because of the beauty of their models. The Succubus is amazing (though sadly, single pose); the vehicles like the Raider and Ravager are awesome. Reavers are so superior to Eldar jetbike models that it's not funny. And, I think Kabalites and Wyches are by far the best 10-pack infantry models. Frankly, I think they are GW's best sculpting work.