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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/25 03:55:27
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Having started to read some of the various 40k novels, my friend pointed out to me that marines are "a lot scarier in the books". I had to agree, depending on the book marines can seem infinitely more powerful and durable, especially against the likes of orks (the army he runs). He personally wishes that my DA would hold up a lot better in melee, as well as show that they're a lot more durable. We were thinking about making a game that he'd get more points (maybe 1000 vs 1750 or such), but that all of my units would get huge buffs.We're honestly just throwing together whatever we feel will make marines more powerful but at the same time not disgustingly unbalanced. This is entirely for a very fluffy, narrative game for him, I'm not trying to say marines are bad or whine that they aren't exactly to my liking.
The statline of a basic marine would be upgraded, WS and BS 5, A 2 or 3. Bolters, heavy bolters, and storm bolters would all fire an extra shot. Plasma doesn't get hot. Power fists hit at initiative 2. Terminators T5, and 5+ FNP. My dreadnought will have a 5+ invuln,
From what I've suggested, does 1000 vs 1500 seem fair? Or should he get more? And are there any other key things I'm missing that would make marines more cooler, or does anything I've suggested seem silly?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/25 03:55:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/25 04:49:33
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Terrifying Rhinox Rider
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So many threads on this that I can't find.
It sounds fine for a one-off thing, you should do it.
I have three main things you should think about.
A: bs5 is weak on something so expensive. Think Gaunt's Ghosts novels where missiles hit tanks and bounce off, but the really skilled characters can always hit a weak spot and blow the turret/tracks right off. Maybe consider Tank Hunters, since you are going to have way fewer AP weapons than you're used to and bs5 doesn't make up for it.
B. Keeping track of the extra wounds on basic models probably isn't worth it. Only for an occasional game.
C. Marine powerfists* are almost the only things that hit at initiative one as it is. What benefit do you get?
*+ axes, hammers
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/25 07:31:15
Subject: Re:Realistic Marines Scenario
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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The best way to make it imo is to create a desired game profile for a movie/book marine.
Depending on the ones you're reading it may vary greatly.
For me it's something like this.
Statline changes:
t5, 2 wounds, WS/BS 5, 2 attacks, 6+ fnp.
Gear changes:
chainsword - shred
bolter - rapid fire 2/3
And so on and so forth - to get close to the image of the super-elite warrior you wana see. And than it's time to price your marines correctly.
For the statline i've proposed, i think something around 30 ppm would be fairly reasonable. But only testing can tell.
The thing with the current marine statline is that if they were too powerful, you'd be able to field much fewer. Which is bad for the sales aestetics.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/25 07:37:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/25 07:39:51
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Heroic Senior Officer
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And others think the current statsline is fine and that the books are doing it wrong.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/25 07:46:57
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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Bobthehero wrote:And others think the current statsline is fine and that the books are doing it wrong.
That's why we have proposed rules. You can make marines t2 if you wish. Make them grots in power armor. Or return their rogue trader t3 4+ armor. Up to you.
Books tend to overpower marines when needed to the plot and make them unkillable super-men kicking back krak missiles while backflipping. And in some books they die to a lazgun shot. So, it's mostly up to your mental imaginery to decide what's the 'right' statline. I'd like to think that marines are somewhere in the middle being super-tough for someone their size thanks to all the countless augmentations and gene modifications. But not to the point of shrugging off heavy fire like no big deal. Maybe t5 is too much in this case. But otherwise there'd be a too huge difference in durability vs s8-9 and small arms fire. But in return, they lack numbers to deal significant damage all around - thus, have to concentrate their forces.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/12/25 07:56:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/25 22:36:47
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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pelicaniforce wrote:C. Marine powerfists* are almost the only things that hit at initiative one as it is. What benefit do you get?
If a squad of terminators runs into something else with unwieldy (power klaws), so that my AP2 is better than his AP2. If meganobz fight terminators, the terminators had better be pretty darn outnumbered to lose more than a model or two.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/26 03:59:48
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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I have attempted to do something similar in the past, but unfortunately due to the current state of the game I don't think including fluffy marines would work. What if you want fluffy Terminators? Fluffy Primarchs?
The system broke already when I reached Terminator armour, and there's even more strong things than that around. Grey Knights, for example.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/26 04:50:46
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Ashiraya wrote:I have attempted to do something similar in the past, but unfortunately due to the current state of the game I don't think including fluffy marines would work. What if you want fluffy Terminators? Fluffy Primarchs?
The system broke already when I reached Terminator armour, and there's even more strong things than that around. Grey Knights, for example.
Oh jeez, while I like what you're going for that it's escalating WAY too quickly haha. And this would definitely be a limited thing, maybe only played once or twice. I wouldn't have to worry about grey knights because it'd just be my current DA vs orks, no need for rules to for anything other than specifically what I'll run. We'll leave orks exactly as they already are, and just buff marines to a point that we feel is somewhat more appropriate. Definitely not going to try and make new rules or anything.
So a venerable dreadnought is the scariest thing in the army, then a squad of deathwing, maybe a bike squad, and the rest would just be tac marines. Librarian at the helm.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/26 06:55:23
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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The Orks were the initial threat and the powered armor was made to help the Space Marines become a threat to the powerful Ork Infantryman, kind of an equalizer of sorts. If Orks were 40K real right now, then they'd be pretty scary creatures, I'd hate to imagine Tyranids...
Anyway, I think the books are generally good on how war is with Astartes and their armor, yet in the game I've had SM's hold out pretty well sometimes then others just plain blah... I would agree with your friend on SM's being a lot scarier in the books though.
The point offset sounds like it could be fun.
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of the women.
Twitter @Kelly502Inf |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/26 07:06:04
Subject: Re:Realistic Marines Scenario
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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For me, this is how I would stat out a Spess Muhreen:
Tactical Marine:
WS: 5 BS: 5 S: 5 T:5 I: 5 : W: 2 : A: 2 LD: 10 3+/4+ FNP.
Make it 45 ppm or so. Nothing too outlandish but at least they're hard as nails.
Astartes Boltgun:
S: 5 AP: 5 Rapid Fire, Shred 24"
Astartes Bolt Pistol
S: 5 AP: 5 Pistol, Shred 12"
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/26 08:30:50
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Sinister Chaos Marine
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I have played a game using the chaos Lord stat line and points as regular marines. I played for the mark of nurgle to give them T5. The guy I played agreed to give them FNP for free. We played the same points and it was an awesome game. I kept everything individual and moved them like the badass warriors they are. Except for the FNP this is just an unbound list and is legal
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/12/26 09:51:50
Subject: Realistic Marines Scenario
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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This concept was in a White Dwarf once (I don't recall which issue) as the "Movie Marines" army list. One ten-man Tactical Squad (all models operating individually) was a 1,500pt army, including among other things "stunt doubles" (the first few times you kill any of them you actually killed a stunt double).
Needless to say this was facetious.
The issue with representing the novels in the game is that the novels tend to make the faction they're focusing on vastly overpowered by comparison to everyone else; if Inquisitors could really do the gak Eisenhorn and Ravenor pull the whole game would be two psykers miles from the battlefield duking it out, if Space Marines really walked through everything in their way without trying there would be no game, et cetera. The game is a set of abstractions that tries to sit somewhere in the middle of all the extremes the lore claims of the models fighting on the field such that we have an actual game instead of a carpet of Guardsmen marching forward while one Khorne Berzerker chops his way through them laughing maniacally.
That said tweaking the scale of the game to allow a small heroic Space Marine force to hold the line against a tide of Orks isn't a bad idea; I might suggest pumping the Marines' statlines and taking some of the hero-stat concepts from GW's LotR game (for those who aren't familiar with it heroes have a reserve of Might (used to modify rolls up or down, or to take special out-of-sequence actions), Will (used to activate and resist magical powers), and Fate (used to avoid death) points that get used to do dramatic things ordinary soldiers can't do), that lets you get away with doing cool things and making the Space Marines dramatically harder to kill without going overboard on statline buffs. A terrain-dense board and potentially something like 4e Kill Team's klaxon system (the Orks move semi-randomly until the Marines make enough noise to be spotted) might be interesting too.
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