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He's probably on some medication right now. Cut him some slack.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am pretty sure them being more intelligent than any normal human being, having super human abilities more than allows them to do so. Space marines are designed to do whatever the helk they want. The Raptors Chapter being a camo chapter that rarely gets into close combat. infact many chapters perfer ranged combat to close quarters.

Sigh. It's like you didn't even bother reading what I posted before responding to it. Could you please stop doing that? Otherwise there's not much point in having a "discussion" with you.

WE can't say what is better and what is not.

Oh really? Because you seemed perfectly happy to do exactly that:

"The helmets that Space Marines wear have alot of special optics that make most starcraft technology look crappy in comparision."

Now could you please provide proof of this statement or concede defeat?

That is an equalivency statement I suggest you look it up before commenting any further. But you lack this quite often and just rush in with out any idea and no support for your own claims.

What? I have no idea what you're talking about here. You posted the bit about medical technology and planet killers in response to my request for proof of your claims about space marine optics being superior to Starcraft marine optics. And those things have nothing to do with the quality of helmet optics.

As I have stated before this comes to a logical conclusion that their optics are just as advanced as 40k weapon technology is leagues ahead of their medical technology.

No, that is absolutely NOT a conclusion. Being better in one area does NOT inevitably mean superiority in some other area. Technology doesn't work like that, different fields are independent of each other and there isn't some RTS-style tech tree that everyone follows. And this is especially true in 40k, where science and engineering are heresy and the Imperium is limited to repeating the same old recovered STC designs. So the Imperium could easily have medical technology tens of thousands of years ahead of its helmet optics, simply because a good medical STC library was recovered intact, while hemet optics are limited to a much older design.

Funny thing those are actually from white dwarves XD The bullet picture was made from a fan, and the other photo was in a white dwarf.

Yes, I was clearly talking about the fan-made drawing, not the WD scan. This still doesn't answer the question of why you think that a fan-made drawing (which doesn't even follow the fluff) is at all relevant in this discussion.

No more on the lines of. Why are you talking about this. This has nothing to do with the matter on hand. Stop acting high and mighty.

And, again, you were perfectly happy to talk about it as long as you were presenting your own opinion and nobody disagreed with you.

And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?

It is a response to your claim that 40k isn't a "retro-future" universe.

 Asherian Command wrote:


The armor that land raiders use might be far more effective and layered than our tanks. Lets not forget this is the year 40k meaning everything is far better and more well suited than right now. So our conventional weaponry might just bounce off it like a dodge ball hitting a wall of solid metal.

I was refering to the stats on the free poster that was in WD when the LR kit was first released. The land raider does in fact have layered composite armour with adamantium in it, and while it is no doubt thinner than modern armour, the stat given is that the LR armour is that it is the equivalent of 350mm of homogeneous steel plate.
The problem Imperial tanks have is that armour is badly angled, in a lot of cases not angled at all. probably the only way a LR would 'bounce' a shot is if a shot from the front hit it a glancing blow on the side (or takes out the lascannon sponson). And that doesn't even take into consideration the massive weakspots (tracks, Heavy bolter, assault ramp) from the front.

If you do even a little reading into (modern) tank design you will quickly see the design of the imperial vehicles is incredibly backwards, and illustrates that while the LR looks pretty cool, it would be dead meat in a modern battle.

as to baneblades and other superheavies.... they would be great if the enemy had no artillery or airsupport. they are so huge that they are an easy target for artillery, so slow they can't maneuver to make themselves hard to hit by a plane, and so big that even if they did maneuver, they are so big it would be hard to miss. there is a reason the german Ratte never made it off the drawing board! Titans would be even harder to miss. sure they have void shields and super thick armour, but the sheer size of them means you would struggle to miss! one lucky (or well placed) hit from the front, and a warlord titan will just blow up!

but that's going off topic. Realistically, there is no real way to compare marines with Spartans or star craft marines. it is highly unlikely that they would ever meet on a battlefield, even if they were fighting each other. The job of the astartes isn't to lead frontal assaults (not since girlyman killed the legions) but rather to hit and fade, and strike vulnerable targets behind enemy lines. you let the grunts fight on the front lines.

 Grey Templar wrote:
He's probably on some medication right now. Cut him some slack.

What is that suppose to mean?

O.O
......



Automatically Appended Next Post:

madtankbloke wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


The armor that land raiders use might be far more effective and layered than our tanks. Lets not forget this is the year 40k meaning everything is far better and more well suited than right now. So our conventional weaponry might just bounce off it like a dodge ball hitting a wall of solid metal.

I was refering to the stats on the free poster that was in WD when the LR kit was first released. The land raider does in fact have layered composite armour with adamantium in it, and while it is no doubt thinner than modern armour, the stat given is that the LR armour is that it is the equivalent of 350mm of homogeneous steel plate.
The problem Imperial tanks have is that armour is badly angled, in a lot of cases not angled at all. probably the only way a LR would 'bounce' a shot is if a shot from the front hit it a glancing blow on the side (or takes out the lascannon sponson). And that doesn't even take into consideration the massive weakspots (tracks, Heavy bolter, assault ramp) from the front.

If you do even a little reading into (modern) tank design you will quickly see the design of the imperial vehicles is incredibly backwards, and illustrates that while the LR looks pretty cool, it would be dead meat in a modern battle.

as to baneblades and other superheavies.... they would be great if the enemy had no artillery or airsupport. they are so huge that they are an easy target for artillery, so slow they can't maneuver to make themselves hard to hit by a plane, and so big that even if they did maneuver, they are so big it would be hard to miss. there is a reason the german Ratte never made it off the drawing board! Titans would be even harder to miss. sure they have void shields and super thick armour, but the sheer size of them means you would struggle to miss! one lucky (or well placed) hit from the front, and a warlord titan will just blow up!

but that's going off topic. Realistically, there is no real way to compare marines with Spartans or star craft marines. it is highly unlikely that they would ever meet on a battlefield, even if they were fighting each other. The job of the astartes isn't to lead frontal assaults (not since girlyman killed the legions) but rather to hit and fade, and strike vulnerable targets behind enemy lines. you let the grunts fight on the front lines.

If things get bad you send the titan legions to deal with it. Making short work of the starcraft forces quite efficiently.

I am pretty sure though that with imperiums vast resources the Terran Dominion would be wiped from existence pretty quickly. As crusade fleets would necessarily wipe out the terran dominion in single swoop.


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pelicaniforce wrote:
Hey Asherian Command, you know I'm no in this conversation and I don't have any problems with you, so can you tell me why your writing is so crazy?

The same reason why most people in here determine to tell me that my writing is crazy without pointing out what is so crazy about it. I rarely edit these posts. Because mostly this is a VS thread and I am hardly taking it seriously.

Bobthehero wrote:Personally, I think the TT stats for SM are a good representation of them, stronger and faster than humans but not so much that they're unbeatable and undefeatable.

I am sure you do, you play Guardsmen after all.

Grey Templar wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Personally, I think the TT stats for SM are a good representation of them, stronger and faster than humans but not so much that they're unbeatable and undefeatable.

They're good for the purpose they serve, as stats for a battle game. But to properly represent them on the table top relative to everyone else's stats, basic tactical marine profiles would need to look like this.

WS:5
BS:5
Str:4
T:4
W:3
I:4
A:2
Ld:8

They'd also have FnP and Acute Senses.

They'd also cost 50ish points for just a guy with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol.

I quite like your stats, they seem far better than the current, but in order to put in truly fluffy stats the whole game would need an overhaul. The game breaks fast otherwise.

 Grey Templar wrote:
At best they're equal

No, the SC armor and guns are way better.

 Matthew wrote:
Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?

No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yet starcraft marines are slaughtered in the hundreds by zerglings and hydralisks.

So I guess the 40k marines would be slaughtered by the thousands by zerglings and hydralisks.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
At best they're equal

No, the SC armor and guns are way better.

 Matthew wrote:
Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?

No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!

I cannot fault your logic here.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
At best they're equal

No, the SC armor and guns are way better.

 Matthew wrote:
Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?

No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!

I cannot fault your logic here.

O.o I had forgotten about that. In terms of fluff for starcraft though. Those cruisers are 700 meters big according to some people on many forms. I highly doubt that the guns in cinematics could do so. But there are alpha level pyskers that can bring whole armies to their knees.

*ahem*

 Asherian Command wrote:

And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?

If that has no baring in the conversation Don't bring it up. That is a side strike. What point is it to bring it up other than as a distraction to the thread?

I think we should give 40k marines the award for being able to punch tanks to death though.

 Torga_DW wrote:
*ahem*

 Asherian Command wrote:

And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?

If that has no baring in the conversation Don't bring it up. That is a side strike. What point is it to bring it up other than as a distraction to the thread?

I think we should give 40k marines the award for being able to punch tanks to death though.

Now as we go through stuff in terms of the fluff I think space marines win hands down. But in terms of gameplay... Marines still win. Orbital bombardment and sniping of all the leaders and deploy virus bombs.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
At best they're equal

No, the SC armor and guns are way better.

 Matthew wrote:
Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?

No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!

No, just no.

Thats because the game uses a simple hitpoint vs damage output mechanic. Its far worse than even the 40k system at portraying realistic damage.

Anything in that game can kill anything given enough time and if left unmolested. Its a game, its therefore an abstraction.

Also, a marine with just his fists could disable a space ship if he was on it. he'd just need to start ripping out wires and smashing important looking stuff. He'd do it eventually. A Thunderhawk would be trivial.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I highly doubt that the guns in cinematics could do so.

Do you have evidence for this, or are you just assuming it so that marines don't look bad?

But there are alpha level pyskers that can bring whole armies to their knees.

Didn't you just finish complaining about how talking about anything but the three specific "space marine" types was off-topic and shouldn't be allowed here? Your comment about alpha-level pyskers is about as relevant (by your own standards) as talking about how a single Culture warship would slaughter the entire 40k universe.

Well starcraft marines are out. They are just normal dudes.

Spartans have a good chance since they have such a variety of skills and weapons. I would put Space marines in a close second, this is only because you said with blotters. The spartans would assess the situation and all take snipers and be home for afternoon training.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
We really don't have any actual comparable information. The only thing we actually know is that Spartans are much faster and stronger than unaltered humans, and that Astartes are much stronger and faster than unaltered humans, and that each wears a suit of power armor that similarly makes them much faster and stronger than they already are. Especially considering that plasma weapons kill Astartes as easily as they seem to kill Spartans when both are in full armor, about the only reasonably quantifiable comparison you can actually make and actually support in a meaningful way is that bolters have more firepower in general than the Spartan's standard small arms. Any supposition beyond that comes down purely to how much of a fanboy you are of the respective faction.

Covenant Plasma Pistols are objectively far far weaker than 40k Plasma pistols.

40k Plasma can put holes in battle tanks. The Covenant Plasma pistol is the basic weapon of grunts and it can barely scratch the paint on a glorified ATV.

According to video game logic, which isn't much of logic to go on when making comparisons. What we would need is solid background info from the creator of Halo, and what he/she envisioned for the lore. We really don't have any idea of just how powerful Covenant weaponry is. The games really do a piss poor job of explaining things. A fuel rod cannon for instance seems like it should blow things up or worse. But in the video games, your ATV just flips all around and takes no damage (until later installments). But of course, the damage isn't really flushed out due to video game logic...they won't blow up your vehicle in one hit due to it being...a video game. No accurate representation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I highly doubt that the guns in cinematics could do so.

Do you have evidence for this, or are you just assuming it so that marines don't look bad?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-00uQzXyujI

Marines never shot up. They can't kill a battle cruiser. Starcraft marines cannot do that. Except in game.

But there are alpha level pyskers that can bring whole armies to their knees.

Didn't you just finish complaining about how talking about anything but the three specific "space marine" types was off-topic and shouldn't be allowed here? Your comment about alpha-level pyskers is about as relevant (by your own standards) as talking about how a single Culture warship would slaughter the entire 40k universe.

\

Alpha level pyskers are in the realm of possibity and live in the 40k universe. Did any your examples? no? Then no, it is not related.

Any thing that is outside of the current genres or ideas or franchises can be used. Or what has been detailed by the OP. If you want to make your own thread please do so.

As pyskers are in 40k.

For one a culture ship isn't even from 40k. An alpha level pysker is. Though Extremely rare. And Exceedingly dangerous.

See my logic makes sense. Yours sadly in this argument does not. It is way off the beaten path and one that should not be taken as it has no relevance in this debate what so ever. Mobile Infantry, Supreme Commander those last I checked where no where to be seen in 40k or Starcraft or Halo.

 Asherian Command wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-00uQzXyujI

Marines never shot up. They can't kill a battle cruiser. Starcraft marines cannot do that. Except in game.

Wait, let me get this straight: your "proof" that marine rifles can't hurt a battlecruiser is that the marines in that scene never shot at a friendly battlecruiser?

Alpha level pyskers are in the realm of possibity and live in the 40k universe. Did any your examples? no? Then no, it is completely related.

As pyskers are in 40k all the time.

For one a culture ship is even from 40k. An alpha level pysker.

See my logic makes sense. Yours sadly in this argument does not

Are you drunk? Honestly? Because you aren't even making any sense anymore. Alpha-level psykers have nothing to do with space marines, and are just as off-topic (by your own standards) as Culture drones or Starship Troopers.

Guys, if you want to continue this argument, please make sure to do so without personal attacks.

 luky7dayz wrote:
Well starcraft marines are out. They are just normal dudes.

Spartans have a good chance since they have such a variety of skills and weapons. I would put Space marines in a close second, this is only because you said with blotters. The spartans would assess the situation and all take snipers and be home for afternoon training.

And the Sniper Rifles would do jack all against the Marines armor. The UNSC, for all of it's blinky lights, is one of the most poorly thought out human faction in sci-fi... ever.

You are all wrong. The Doom marine wins



That video from Deathbattles was funded by microsoft, and was complete nonsense.

The Doomguy fought off an invasion from hell wearing what is basically a flak jacket.
The other guys need power armor.

The Doomguy can carry 7 weapons and still run.
Can the other marines do that?

Not to mention that the Doomguy punches demons and gak to death with his fists.
Grey Knights need a halberd.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You are all wrong. The Doom marine wins

Doom marine is the best, then Starcraft marines, then… well, I do not know enough about spartans, so either 40k marines or Spartans.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anything in that game can kill anything given enough time and if left unmolested.

No. An immortal, or a zealot, for instance, will never be able to even damage a battlecruiser. And iirc, 12 marines against a battlecruiser, the marines will win even if the battlecruiser strikes back, when at full upgrade both. 10 is a closer deal.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Also, a marine with just his fists could disable a space ship if he was on it. he'd just need to start ripping out wires and smashing important looking stuff. He'd do it eventually. A Thunderhawk would be trivial.

Yeah. Starcraft marines are able to destroy thunderhawk with their fists. How badass is that?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Also, a marine with just his fists could disable a space ship if he was on it. he'd just need to start ripping out wires and smashing important looking stuff. He'd do it eventually. A Thunderhawk would be trivial.

Yeah. Starcraft marines are able to destroy thunderhawk with their fists. How badass is that?

Well, there was one marine, who had his neural resocialization process reversed by a Protoss. The guy sabotaged the life support system of a battlecruiser. So technically it would be possible for a marine to take down a big ship.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You are all wrong. The Doom marine wins



That video from Deathbattles was funded by microsoft, and was complete nonsense.

The Doomguy fought off an invasion from hell wearing what is basically a flak jacket.
The other guys need power armor.

The Doomguy can carry 7 weapons and still run.
Can the other marines do that?

Not to mention that the Doomguy punches demons and gak to death with his fists.
Grey Knights need a halberd.

Read the hammer of demons. A Grey Knight was able to beat to a pulp an actual demon. Those are different types of demons from a completely different universe where guns somehow are able to kill demons. We have no idea what the actual demons are like.

For all we know those could be aliens from a dimension from hell.

Plus what the hell does doomguy have to do with this discussion?

I am really sorry but lets face it the doomguy is not involved with this discussion. This is starcraft marines vs space marines vs spartans.

Doom marine is the best, then Starcraft marines, then… well, I do not know enough about spartans, so either 40k marines or Spartans.

Nope space marines still win because they face demons, chaos space marines, and make the zerglings fall flat. Now what I would like to see is the tyranids vs the flood vs the zerg.

It would be so cool. Just endless battering and parasites countering parasites.

I am pretty sure according to the lore the starcraft marines can't bring down a battle cruiser. Otherwise they wouldn't of retreated against the dominion fleet. they would of just deployed marines on the side of the hyperion instead of running?

No. An immortal, or a zealot, for instance, will never be able to even damage a battlecruiser. And iirc, 12 marines against a battlecruiser, the marines will win even if the battlecruiser strikes back, when at full upgrade both. 10 is a closer deal.

According to gameplay a single space marine squad can take down a baneblade. According to gameplay a single drop pod can launch people in the air. instead of CRUSHING Them.

Yeah. Starcraft marines are able to destroy thunderhawk with their fists. How badass is that?

Doubt it. They had trouble fighting a bunch of zerglings.






See the problem with your logic is that because they can shoot down ships. Yet it has been shown that they can't in the cinematics and lore.
Hey look your full of it.

When we have this....

Well, there was one marine, who had his neural resocialization process reversed by a Protoss. The guy sabotaged the life support system of a battlecruiser. So technically it would be possible for a marine to take down a big ship.

Eh....

I remember a single Raven Guard being able to take down an entire battleship by himself.

We have marines being jetsoned into space without their helmets and surviving! Starcraft marines are just human. If it came to a fist fight the space marines would still live and win. Tactically the space marines win due to how vast their resources are. Logisitically they win. Its a joke to even think that the starcraft marines win.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Plus what the hell does doomguy have to do with this discussion?

He is the bestestest marines of them all, times infinity, plus one. Admit it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Nope space marines still win because they face demons, chaos space marines, and make the zerglings fall flat.

A zergling would kill a 40k space marine one on one.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am pretty sure according to the lore the starcraft marines can't bring down a battle cruiser. Otherwise they wouldn't of retreated against the dominion fleet. they would of just deployed marines on the side of the hyperion instead of running?

There were too many dominion marines.

 Asherian Command wrote:
See the problem with your logic is that because they can shoot down ships. Yet it has been shown that they can't in the cinematics and lore.

It has never been shown .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Plus what the hell does doomguy have to do with this discussion?

He is the bestestest marines of them all, times infinity, plus one. Admit it.

The greatest marine to ever live is John Perry from Old Mans War. Who took down an entire alien armada and civilization. By himself.

Don't believe me? Read the book series XD. They took down ships sometimes with their weapons. Giant Aliens the size of small frigates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War

 Asherian Command wrote:
Nope space marines still win because they face demons, chaos space marines, and make the zerglings fall flat.

A zergling would kill a 40k space marine one on one.

I disagree. Considering a marine can kill a termgaunt pretty easily. Zergling is a much smaller termagaunt.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am pretty sure according to the lore the starcraft marines can't bring down a battle cruiser. Otherwise they wouldn't of retreated against the dominion fleet. they would of just deployed marines on the side of the hyperion instead of running?

There were too many dominion marines.

Oh god your logic is hilarious..

 Asherian Command wrote:
See the problem with your logic is that because they can shoot down ships. Yet it has been shown that they can't in the cinematics and lore.

It has never been shown .

Nope. But neither has it been shown that they could take one down in terms of lore of cinematics. Ingame mechanics don't count. Because we have a space marine fall from a moon to the ground and survive. While pummeling a terminator with his bare hands.

Tell the the next Eldar player I play that "in game mechanics" don't count.

Martel732 wrote:
Tell the the next Eldar player I play that "in game mechanics" don't count.

We are not using ingame mechanics otherwise marines would win no matter what.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tell the the next Eldar player I play that "in game mechanics" don't count.

We are not using ingame mechanics otherwise marines would win no matter what.

That's about the most insane thing I've heard for a while. Please, continue.

Marines are too embarrassing on the table top to remotely take their fluff seriously. Because the true fluff is them being gunned down mercilessly by guardsmen with plasma guns. Big gun, cheap dude. Works every time.

Martel732 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tell the the next Eldar player I play that "in game mechanics" don't count.

We are not using ingame mechanics otherwise marines would win no matter what.

That's about the most insane thing I've heard for a while. Please, continue.

Marines are too embarrassing on the table top to remotely take their fluff seriously. Because the true fluff is them being gunned down mercilessly by guardsmen with plasma guns. Big gun, cheap dude. Works every time.

Not always. If you have read a few sci-fi books and certain situations where the more advanced soldiers slaughter entire populations.

See the more you say don't read the fluff the more I will reference the fluff.

You keep using other sources from starcraft fluff and doom fluff. So it is only fair I take from the 40k fluff.

Stop plugging your ears and say NO THOSE Don't count and just accept it. The Adeptus Astartes win.

Hybrid and you are just drawing out this thread because you are both trolls and have been known to do this. So stop arguing against the entire idea you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.

Martel732 wrote:
I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.

The tabletop is not Representative of 40k. Its basically the tool to tell stories. I played both the table top and read the fluff for 10 years.

I used the tabletop for a while to help write my fluff. Using it to craft a narrative. Often playing against my opponents quite purposefully.

It was actually more fun and my opponents actually had just as much fun when I did crazy things with my troops. By adding a random RNG event for my opponent.

Often times I allowed my younger opponents to bring back entire squads. Sometimes we also had marines that stayed in cover in the cities of death rule set fight in cover for turn and turns and be shot by titans and still survive an explosion from a void missile pretty much ensured me that the tabletop you really can't trust it.

In terms of gameplay and the tabletop marines becoming inferior is because of Power Creep it happens when a game company has no idea how to make rulesets or gameplay work.

Considering that I highly doubt marines can randomly comeback to life on the board. The Tabletop really doesn't count.