Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Terran Marines, in their lore, are displayed the same way as Marines are shown on the tabletop; they are oneshotted by almost everything.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
... and consistently suffer catastrophic casualties.

Just like certain chapters of 40K marines, then

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour.

A very drunk Tychos, to be exact. Context man, it does wonders for discussions.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.

Cavemen stabbing chaplains in the throat with wooden spears does exist tho.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Terran Marines, in their lore, are displayed the same way as Marines are shown on the tabletop; they are oneshotted by almost everything.

Which tells us two things.

1: The universe of StarCraft is a lethal one.

2: Terran marines are line troopers.

 Asherian Command wrote:
But their lore is extremely well thought out. I love their tanks, I love everything about starcraft but. You have to admit that their marines are so untrained its hilarious. Remember how many casualities the Terran suffered during their civil war? Billions. BILLIONS in a war that lasted a few months.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yeah but then tychos is killed by a single shot from a regular pistol.

 Asherian Command wrote:
1. Terran Marines are extremely expendabale as the lore AcTUALLY SAYS.

 Asherian Command wrote:
2. Terran Marines are actually Militia.

 Asherian Command wrote:
3. Terran Marines are killed quite often even by other marines.

 Asherian Command wrote:
4. Terran Marines are not wearing extremely protective armor.

 Asherian Command wrote:
5. Terran Marines are thoroughly outclassed against Thors.

I always enjoy a fellow SC-fan Ash, but your lack of knowledge about the StarCraft universe is astounding.

It’s true that the training of the common Terran marine enlisted in militias is going to vary. However, marines under the CMC, Terran Dominion and the War Pigs are trained much better. In the case of CMC and Terran Dominion, you have former convicts brainwashed into becoming the perfect soldiers, utterly loyal and exceptionally well trained.

Sadly in the case of the Dominion, they often die in droves, mostly due to the Dominion’s insane politics and the fact that loses are not difficult to replace.

Stick to what you know Ash, and let the StarCraft aficionados on Dakka take care of the other end.

 Torga_DW wrote:
Keep in mind though, billions is the population of modern day earth, so a single planet. Thats not taking into account things like hive cities where you have billions of people in just one structure.

As far as fighting a war goes, putting mass-produced 'good enough' troops against superior-equipped forces is how america beat germany. And regardless of the wearer, the marines in the starcraft universe are wearing 40k-style power armour. The notable difference being that 40k marines need a backpack to house the powerplant for their suit, while sc marines have it housed in the body itself.

I think the technology level of starcraft is more advanced - no point genetically engineering supersoldiers if they die just as easy as a conscripted grunt. Tychos might have fared a bit better if he'd had his faceplate down when he needed it.

 Torga_DW wrote:
They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.

 Asherian Command wrote:


The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.

There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.

There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.

I don't know the horus heresy was quite a determent of that.

Where almost the entire imperium and 75% of the space marine population was dwindled in a few years.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.

There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.

I don't know the horus heresy was quite a determent of that.

Where almost the entire imperium and 75% of the space marine population was dwindled in a few years.

Right, but how much of those casualties would have been caused by boltguns over, say, destruction of troop ships in naval battles or orbital bombardments or chemical weapons or whatever.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.

Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.

The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

Martel732 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.

Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.

The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

The bolter is actually a popgun in practice. S4 AP 5 rapid fire 24" on a 14 pt model stinks.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.

Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.

The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.

Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.

The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.

it was the Auretian Technocracy that had Power Armor and not the Interex. Sorry a bit of a stickler for fluff. But yeah, the Interex was overwhelmed due to an issue of numbers and that they were not a war-centric empire. However their soldiers seemed have been quite capable at taking out Space Marines with their standard issue gun cross bow thingamajig punching holes in power armor with ease.

The Auretian Technocracy was also a fairly peaceful empire no where close to being as warmongering as the Imperium. They were forced to surrender after a 10 month siege on their capital planet by (I think) 3 different legions including the Sons of Horus. Horus was after their STC's to bribe some of the Ad Mech to join his rebellion.

 Paimon wrote:
So the discussion is 100 vs 100 vs 100. Not plus all the ships and warp and super weapons, because in that case, Halo uses the Rings and wins. Plus Cortana hacks all of the things and makes friends with the Machine Spirits and/or gets corrupted by all of the crazy gak left over from the war against the Iron Men, or some other technobable cyberwarfare something.

We can't trust 40k fluff as lore, since it's cannon but not accurate. That is, it's as likely to be Imperial propaganda as it is to be useful accurate information about how effective a specific military unit is. The table top is an abstraction and probably makes the Marines weaker than they should be. Finding a happy medium is tricky.

Some people here keep listing off all of the super awesome upgrades that the GW Space Marines get, as though the Spartans aren't also genetically enhanced. Spit out vaugely technical information about the GW armor, as though the other two armors don't also have things that protect their wearer and improve performance.

Spartans can flip tanks. Their armor cannot be worn by non-enhanced humans because the neural interface is such that, upon thinking about moving, the armor will make the movement so fast that it will break bones and rip muscle in a normal human. 40k Power Armor does not have this problem. "Something something black carapace" you say. This is the obvious rebuttal, and while the Black Carapace improves performance compared to normal humans in Power Armor, this is a strength and not a speed increase.

What does this mean? It means that the Spartans are almost certainly a hell of a lot faster than a 40k or Starcraft Marine. Moreover, they are way more willing to sneak around (with some exception depending on which chapter we're dealing with) and even run away to figure out just what the hell they are dealing with. Both Imperial Marines and Spartans beat out the Terran Marines who are less veteran, less bred for war, and less augmented. Their armor is certainly slower than the Spartans at least, given that, unaugmented, they can't move that fast without being pulped. Similarly, in one of the Games, Master Chief fell from Orbit and lived, with armor and systems intact. So including the recharging shields, Spartans have armor that is at least as tough as the Space Marines.

Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).

 primalexile wrote:
Master Chief would destroy the whole 40k and Starcraft Universe.. The only one who could possibly stop him is Draigo, who unfortunately is stuck in the warp.

 Asherian Command wrote:
True. But you have their armor being damaged heavily by small gunfire. Where it has been shown that starcraft marine dies from a couple shots as well.

I think marines are not only augmented further than Spartans but are vastly more improved as they have centuries or decades of more experience than any spartan.

 Paimon wrote:
Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).

 Grey Templar wrote:
A marine will have served a minimum of 5 years in the Scout squads before he's a full battle brother. Pretty sure the only chapter which makes full marines out of green recruits are the Space Wolves, and even then they will have likely seen combat as a tribesmen on Fenris.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Paimon wrote:
Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).

The problem with this approach to scaling is that it only considers distance scaling and ignores time scaling. If an inch on the tabletop represents ~70 yards in "reality" then none of the time scaling makes any sense. An average infantry unit can move 6" per turn followed by a 2D6" charge, so at 1:2460 scale that unit could move over half a mile across open ground and charge an enemy unit while the target barely has time to throw a few inaccurate shots in their general direction. This is obviously absurd, and the situation only makes sense if you assume that the movement distance for the charging unit is scaled roughly the same as the 28mm model (which makes the distance ~10-15 yards).

With that in mind the best way to handle things like the maximum range of tank guns on the tabletop is to accept that the range number in the rules is purely a game mechanic and has nothing to do with the actual range of the weapon. The most we can conclude from the Basilisk having a 240" maximum range is that a Basilisk has a really huge maximum range relative to the average 40k battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A marine will have served a minimum of 5 years in the Scout squads before he's a full battle brother. Pretty sure the only chapter which makes full marines out of green recruits are the Space Wolves, and even then they will have likely seen combat as a tribesmen on Fenris.

Sure, but that's 5 years as a scout, not as a full marine. And it's 5 years that is intended to be a training period. So that's well short of the assumption that an average marine has decades or centuries of experience.

 Peregrine wrote:
The problem with this approach to scaling is that it only considers distance scaling and ignores time scaling. If an inch on the tabletop represents ~70 yards in "reality" then none of the time scaling makes any sense. An average infantry unit can move 6" per turn followed by a 2D6" charge, so at 1:2460 scale that unit could move over half a mile across open ground and charge an enemy unit while the target barely has time to throw a few inaccurate shots in their general direction. This is obviously absurd, and the situation only makes sense if you assume that the movement distance for the charging unit is scaled roughly the same as the 28mm model (which makes the distance ~10-15 yards).

Well, with regards to your question about running and assaulting, an infantry model may run an additional D6" in the shooting phase (Move! Move! Move! just allows them to reroll that distance, I believe.) So that's between 62.5 and 375 meters. Assaulting is now done on 2D6, so that is another 123-750 meters. So potentially, a Guardsman in peak, unaugmented human condition is capable, in game terms, of running 1,475 meters in a turn.

Now, being able to move almost a kilometer and a half at any sort of pace that a human could reliably keep would take at least 5-8 minutes (any military folks who actually can run a 1.5k with full kit, feel free to confirm/correct me; I'm an overweight and out of shape slob who can't run more than 50 feet without getting winded.) If they're attempting to move at all cautiously (and who wouldn't, under frontline combat circumstances?) we can assume it would probably take 15-30 minutes to complete a turn. Based on the concept that Night Fighting rules can take effect both for the first and last turn of the game, it's assumed that the battle takes at least 6-8 hours to fight, if not a bit longer. Again, not unreasonable.

Considering weapon ranges and rate of fire: the weapon ranges are, to my eyes, an average of *effective* range, based on the capabilities of the weapon and the firer. Any trained rifleman can hit a man-sized target with your average battle rifle at 500 meters, but you'd have to be an absolute wizard to push it too much farther than that, particularly in the heat of combat. So we figure that the 12"-24" range on a lasgun is the Guardsman moving at a steady but careful pace and taking deliberate (or as best he/she can) aim at a target that is in the average effective range of the weapon. Inside 12", we're looking at the same careful, by-the-numbers movement, but with much less deliberate - and thus, less accurate - fire. Now, we can safely assume, I think, that a weapon that is, for example, Assault 2 (a Guard shotgun or something) does not represent a soldier moving at that kind of pace over a turn that realistically should take about half an hour only firing two shots in that period. Rather, it is intended to represent a certain volume of fire directed downrange during that time. A Heavy Bolter, for example, is roughly equivalent (I would think) to a .50 caliber machine gun. Now, the M2 they put on top of Humvees has a cyclic rate of about 700 rounds per minute. Therefore, we could assume that a Heavy Bolter has a similar cyclic rate. Thus, the three shots per turn that it fires could safely be assumed, on a spur of the moment SWAG, to equate to probably 75-100 rounds per turn, assuming controlled bursts and time spent reloading. In terms of a lasgun, you could figure maybe 30 or 40 shots at double tap range, or 10-15 at longer range. The First Rank, Second Rank order represents the 40k equivalent of the "Mad Minute" that British soldiers used to strive for in WWII. For artillery like a Basilisk, I suspect that the shells the weapon fires do not actually have the blast radius or lethality that their base statistics would represent, but a sustained barrage at one target, firing a certain number of shells in a given period, would cause the casualties.

For vehicles, a 6" combat speed movement is not unreasonable. If you consider that with the exception of main battle tanks engaging each other in open terrain (The Eastern Front in WWII or the American invasion of Kuwait in 1991, for example), most AFVs and APCs will travel at the same speed as the infantry around them, particularly in dense terrain like cities or forests. Theirs is a symbiotic relationship; the infantry benefit from the firepower and cover from small arms fire that a tank or APC can provide, and in turn, they provide greater visibility and protection from infantry-based AT weaponry. So a 6" combat speed for vehicles is not unreasonable, either. Moving twice that for cruising speed is, again, a reasonable approximation for most vehicles, representing a rapid redeployment regardless of infantry support. Flat out is hammer down, pedal to the metal speed, and realistically, is not something most vehicles could sustain for long.

So at this point, setting aside the fact that our Imperial Guardsmen must be sheer giants to be taking 15-20 meters per stride, I think we can figure that an average game term would take roughly 30-45 minutes, allowing for relatively cautious movement, measured firepower, and the swirling chaos of melee combat. Shooting values represent approximations of ranges and rates of fire, factoring in movement speed, average marksmanship, and reload time of the weapon. We can pretty safely assume that the number of attacks a model makes in melee equate to roughly the same scale. All told, aside from the sizes of the miniatures (which we know are screwy anyway, because there's no way you could squeeze 10 marines, a driver and co-driver/gunner/commander/whatever AND an engine into a vehicle the size of a Rhino) the ranges, weapon fire rates and lethality, and game time isn't at all unreasonable for a massed land battle.

 Paimon wrote:
I think you're looking at this the wrong way, time scaling is a thing that we can also calculate from distance scaling. When I first did the math almost 2 years ago now, I started a thread in the IGMB, and while giving up and just saying 'game mechanic' and leaving it at that is the rational thing to do, we can figure things out with more detail if we're willing to do the work. Sgt. Rock already did the work for us though, so I'm going to quote him:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour. I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Though, admittedly, such a scenario would slightly favor space marines due to their heightened reflexes.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Starcraft marines are basically cannon fodder, not elite at all.

 Asherian Command wrote:
But their lore is extremely well thought out. I love their tanks, I love everything about starcraft but. You have to admit that their marines are so untrained its hilarious. Remember how many casualities the Terran suffered during their civil war? Billions. BILLIONS in a war that lasted a few months.

That is their military getting slaughtered quite quickly.

 primalexile wrote:
Master Chief would destroy the whole 40k and Starcraft Universe.. The only one who could possibly stop him is Draigo, who unfortunately is stuck in the warp.

 Asherian Command wrote:
The Starcraft marine is the slowest of all the three presented.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
The Starcraft marine is the slowest of all the three presented.

Actually, when stimpacked, they are the fastest of all three, reaching eldar hero level of initiative .

Doomguy is slower but more badass so he wins.

 Grey Templar wrote:
MJOLNIR armor is actually surprisingly weak in terms of protection.

The shield is the only substantial protection it offers, and it gets overloaded with even a couple weak hits from a covenant plasma pistol. Legendary difficulty is the "canon" difficulty setting if you want to do comparisons. And once the shield is down, the Spartan goes down quickly.