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 Asherian Command wrote:
A Space Marine chapter known as the Invaders destroyed an entire craftworld.

A space marine chapter known as the minotaurs destroyed a superiorly armed chapter fleet quite easily.

How is that relevant to anything I said. You claimed space marines never suffer high casulties and I rebutted that claim.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sheesh, good thing I didn't fight Witchhunters back then. I would not have been able to make a single WBB roll.

Well, there were the 4-flamer rending squads too.

Eh, I got WBB against ranged rending. It's only Instant death and CC attacks that ignore armor that denied WBB back then.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
A Space Marine chapter known as the Invaders destroyed an entire craftworld.

A space marine chapter known as the minotaurs destroyed a superiorly armed chapter fleet quite easily.

How is that relevant to anything I said. You claimed space marines never suffer high casulties and I rebutted that claim.

And I rebutted your claim.

I said rarely.

Not never.

"As terminator squads would deploy and slaughter entire units. "


Then you were playing against poor players. These kinds of stories can still be found on this forum in modern games. But just because it worked for you, does not make it good in a general sense.

Power weapons in 3rd ignored armor. This was before they gave terminators 5++ save, which really won't save them from AP 2 weapons still. I cut terminators apart with BA by the dozen in 3rd ed, whereas in 2nd ed I had a game against CSM where they killed my entire list on their first turn of shooting.

 Asherian Command wrote:
3rd also did not have those rules. You are maing it up again. I played third ed.

Power weapons only forced +3 armor saves to take an invulnerable save.

+2 did not.

Okay, I cannot take you seriously anymore.
I think you will get this thread closed just like the assassin/ninja one .

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, I got WBB against ranged rending. It's only Instant death and CC attacks that ignore armor that denied WBB back then.

Yeah, I know. Except if those 4 flamers, 1 combiflamers, and then 10 bolter shots, all rending, did kill the whole unit, iirc.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Space marines are also immune to raditiation almost all forms of posioning. (Except in very rare cases)

As evidenced by the fact they are affected by every poison in the game .

They also die from radiation on Calth, even while being fully equipped with power armor.

Those are very rare cases. They are still immune to every poisoned weapon that do not have the poison rule! Oh, wait, no, they are not even immune to those. Well…

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Space marines are also immune to raditiation almost all forms of posioning. (Except in very rare cases)

As evidenced by the fact they are affected by every poison in the game .

They also die from radiation on Calth, even while being fully equipped with power armor.

Radiation kills everything. Marines have no protection against the atoms which make up the molecules which make up the proteins which make up their DNA being ionised.

Martel732 wrote:
"As terminator squads would deploy and slaughter entire units. "


Then you were playing against poor players. These kinds of stories can still be found on this forum in modern games. But just because it worked for you, does not make it good in a general sense.

Power weapons in 3rd ignored armor. This was before they gave terminators 5++ save, which really won't save them from AP 2 weapons still. I cut terminators apart with BA by the dozen in 3rd ed, whereas in 2nd ed I had a game against CSM where they killed my entire list on their first turn of shooting.

I feel like you are stuck in a echo chamber.

Along with some of these posters on here who keep insisting .


Its more on the lines of i Am a fanboy and I refuse to move my position.

Please know I am only a fan of 40k lore.

I haven't touched 40k in years.

Yeah because I am a fanboy I am defending it.

I hate space marines. They are my least favorite race. Eldar are my favorite race. :B

I just know when a space marine wins a VS fight against Terran and Spartans this is done to death.

Now if they were facing the Starship troopers or the Old Man's War Space Corp. The Space Corp wins hands down.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
A Space Marine chapter known as the Invaders destroyed an entire craftworld.

A space marine chapter known as the minotaurs destroyed a superiorly armed chapter fleet quite easily.

How is that relevant to anything I said. You claimed space marines never suffer high casulties and I rebutted that claim.

And I rebutted your claim.

I said rarely.

Not never.

Edit: Ahh why do I even bother discussing this with you? You're stubborn as a mule Ash.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Space marines are also immune to raditiation almost all forms of posioning. (Except in very rare cases)

As evidenced by the fact they are affected by every poison in the game .

They also die from radiation on Calth, even while being fully equipped with power armor.

Erm. No they didn't.

They died from the explosions from the ships above. None of the marines died from radiation. Stop making things up.

I've read the battle of Calth. It killed all the humans but none of the Space Marines.

Otherwise the whole legion would of died.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
3rd also did not have those rules. You are maing it up again. I played third ed.

Power weapons only forced +3 armor saves to take an invulnerable save.

+2 did not.

Okay, I cannot take you seriously anymore.
I think you will get this thread closed just like the assassin/ninja one .

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, I got WBB against ranged rending. It's only Instant death and CC attacks that ignore armor that denied WBB back then.

Yeah, I know. Except if those 4 flamers, 1 combiflamers, and then 10 bolter shots, all rending, did kill the whole unit, iirc.

Not if I had a unit of the same type within 6" of the fallen unit, or a Tomb Spyder on the field

 Asherian Command wrote:
Its more on the lines of i Am a fanboy and I refuse to move my position.

Yeah. Exactly that. That part I bolded. You refuse to even acknowledge you could be presumptuous. You are sure you know better than anyone else, and your truth is irrefutable.

In future, when you are taking part in a thread, whether you are coming late to it or starting it, if you try and take up a position and refuse to admit when you are changing it, and instead still claim that everyone else is wrong, it fosters an environment in which good discussion is not possible.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"As terminator squads would deploy and slaughter entire units. "


Then you were playing against poor players. These kinds of stories can still be found on this forum in modern games. But just because it worked for you, does not make it good in a general sense.

Power weapons in 3rd ignored armor. This was before they gave terminators 5++ save, which really won't save them from AP 2 weapons still. I cut terminators apart with BA by the dozen in 3rd ed, whereas in 2nd ed I had a game against CSM where they killed my entire list on their first turn of shooting.

I feel like you are stuck in a echo chamber.

Along with some of these posters on here who keep insisting .


Its more on the lines of i Am a fanboy and I refuse to move my position.

Please know I am only a fan of 40k lore.

I haven't touched 40k in years.

Yeah because I am a fanboy I am defending it.

I hate space marines. They are my least favorite race. Eldar are my favorite race. :B

I just know when a space marine wins a VS fight against Terran and Spartans this is done to death.

Now if they were facing the Starship troopers or the Old Man's War Space Corp. The Space Corp wins hands down.

So how do you know enough to claim that others are making things up? Because your claims about 3rd ed rules are very much made up. Other veterans on here know how that edition worked.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not if I had a unit of the same type within 6" of the fallen unit, or a Tomb Spyder on the field

Yeah, do not worry, I had basically no way to deal with the monolith anyway, with being only able to do glancing hits!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Its more on the lines of i Am a fanboy and I refuse to move my position.

Yeah. Exactly that. That part I bolded. You refuse to even acknowledge you could be presumptuous. You are sure you know better than anyone else, and your truth is irrefutable.

In future, when you are taking part in a thread, whether you are coming late to it or starting it, if you try and take up a position and refuse to admit when you are changing it, and instead still claim that everyone else is wrong, it fosters an environment in which good discussion is not possible.

^ Read what I said.

I am not a fan of 40k. I just have read into the lore. When I was a kid I used to love them. But now I see them as wastes of time. instead making my own universes and exploring other ways to make believable fantasy worlds.

Also kettle meet pot.

So far you have refused to acknowledge it.

I have even said. AND I QUOTE

Starcraft Ghosts have a chance, though unlikely

See that? That is allowing for discussion and saying. Yes it is possible. But not nullifying by saying It cannot you and your peers have only said never and cannot. Not maybe, You said never.

If you look through my posts. i rarely use the word never.

All you have done is use assumptions and baseless knowledge to try and prove a point.

All you have done is insult me this whole thread. Saying I have done this and that.

That is incredibly immature and baseless.

I will not have any part in a conversation where I am constantly insulted.

Good DAY!

You made the first accusation of "making things up".

Changing the goalposts again...

 Asherian Command wrote:
^ Read what I said.

The bolded part, Ash. The one about you being… stubborn. But yeah, I think either people will start ignoring you and you will start ignoring people, or this thread will be closed.

 Redcruisair wrote:
There is another thing marines have in their favor: Healing.

If you are a space marine and get wounded, then mostly you’re all out of luck. You just sit around waiting for an apothecary to come your way, in which case you’re probably already dead and his only here to harvest your leftovers.

Aren't space marines a little like orks? If an injury doesn't immediately kill them then chances are they will stabilise within minutes, even if in extreme cases it means dropping into a sus-an coma, and eventually recover (through their improved healing and availability of bionics).

They do have some stuff, but not Ork-level though. Leave a marine in the hands of an ork medik for a bionic transplant, you will get a dead marine.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

They also die from radiation on Calth, even while being fully equipped with power armor.

Erm. No they didn't.

Mark Of Calth, Calth That Was: Even Mark IV plate can only remain above ground for a limited time before its protective qualities are eroded.

Mark Of Calth, Calth That Was: He will wait and watch as the caustic rays from the poisoned sun burn the flesh from the Word Bearer's bones. As layer after layer of skin blackens and drifts away like cinders, the toxic air will scald the traitor's throat, silencing his screams and causing him to retch up the frothing, disintegrating remains of his lungs.

Mark Of Calth, The Underworld War: 'I'm' going to the surface,' Kaurtal said at last. Thuul turned his tusked helm to the other warrior. 'To go to the surface is to die.'

The Terminator gave a passive regard. 'you believe the daemon inside you renders you immune to the radiation of a sickened sun?'

Mark Of Calth, The Underworld War: He sensed the daemon's disgust. "You are hollowed through by cancers. They hang inside you, these black fruits, staining your body with sickness. You would die without me, Jerudai. This pilgrimage on the surface will see you dead.

Now could you just please once in your life accept that you were wrong about something?

 Asherian Command wrote:
I've read the battle of Calth.

Well, you certainly didn’t read Mark Of Calth.

Ghosts fire explosive shells that can punch through siege tank armor

 Asherian Command wrote:


The problem is that their armor is made out steel. That is the strongest material they have in their arensal for infantry is nanosteel (Marauder).

Meaning it is inferior to the Adeptus Astartes Power Armor.

Wrong.

Either way, the strongest materials are almost always either alloys or better arrangements of already tough materials.

If there's a humanity 38000 years from now, those materials will very likely be made of many thin layers of different materials arranged in a specific way (molecular level lattices) for maximum weight efficiency and the composite factor.

Given what we know from current armor and future technologies, I'd even wager it would also have micro reactive layers in the mix.




Basically, GW technology is either magical or really pitiful for a civilization 1000+ years from now, oftentimes worse than current non-secret weapons.

Starcraft Marines are just cannon fodder so there's no comparison with the IoM's super soldiers.

Ah so basically ceramite is probably a mixture of materials and materials.

Basically you're conflating a credible scientific projection that I make with the undefined mythic material called ceramite of which we know only one thing: "power armor spehs mareeehn best metal".

Ceramite is nothing until it's been properly defined by GW, which is exactly what's wrong with everything technological in the 40K fluff: it sucks balls. It's not real sci-fi, it's low quality futuristic fantasy.

The stories and the universe are nice and all, but there is no depth, no illusion of another world that lasts more than a few seconds because the background is so simple yet dumb and devoid of science (even lite or fiction).



In that context, the only thing we can say about the power armor is that according to Astartes, it's totally badass, as is just about everything in the game according to the lore (really who isn't über in their own fluff ???).

The comparison with Starcraft Marines can only be done in relative terms: Space Marines are elite units whereas Starcraft Marines are cannon fodder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

A ghost cannot take out a hundred marines. A ghost is a comparision and the only people able to be able to reasonably take it out. But space marines have fairly more capable weaponry. Such as the Kraken Bolters and lascannons being able to outrange anything the Terran Marines have on hand.

He doesn't need to take out a hundred marines though.

And he's a Psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

I laugh at you quite much.

We're all laughing at you, so I guess that's only fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Considering that a plasma weapon fires basically a miniature star at the enemies.

See, that's where basic knowledge of science could help you look smarter.

I suggest wikipedia, looking up what a Plasma is, what the relation to a fusion powered stellar body is, and how exactly that "miniature star" would behave on a battlefield.

Hint: it can only transfer so much heat as it was given to begin with, dissipates some along the way, does not obliterate the whole squad when containment fails.

Calling it a miniature star is a huge stretch if it can't even damage a Leman Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I Am a fanboy and I refuse to move my position.

Yes, yes you are.

Watching Morgoth trash talk others, when he himself is notorious for getting everything wrong on so many treads.

In fairness though, daleks would own everyone, as long as there were no stairs involved.

Exterminate the stars! Exterminate the stairs!

 Asherian Command wrote:

There is NO cannon for 40k, just peoples' views. So we're back to all using IMO

Every time someone says that. They are mostly saying that to get out of an argument or discussion or trying to make every point sound stupid and nebilious. We call this straw manning and distracting from main points. Instead of taking the words of actual lore and agreeing with it, you just basically shut down everyones argument because of some idiot literally said that once.

And has not been confirmed ever since.

Sorry, i should have backed up the statement: Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

There is NO cannon for 40k, just peoples' views. So we're back to all using IMO

Every time someone says that. They are mostly saying that to get out of an argument or discussion or trying to make every point sound stupid and nebilious. We call this straw manning and distracting from main points. Instead of taking the words of actual lore and agreeing with it, you just basically shut down everyones argument because of some idiot literally said that once.

And has not been confirmed ever since.

Sorry, i should have backed up the statement: Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K:

Spoiler:

 Lynata wrote:
So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..

I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?

[edit] Oh, I forgot, I should write a bit about how I deal with the subject myself ...

Me, I'm staying as close to the GW studio fluff as possible, meaning the contents of codices, the rulebooks, magazines such as White Dwarf or Citadel Journal (RIP) and the stuff hosted on the various websites (free PDFs and short articles). Aside from me "growing up" with the tone and style of the studio's own writing, I also believe that this approach keeps me more compatible to the majority of future products from this origin than if I were to embrace one of the outsourced outlets of fluff instead, simply because all the GW stuff is written by the same circle of people (aside from the occasional change in personnel that occurs over the years), compared to the ideas and interpretations of the many, many different individual writers that work on novels etc. Many cooks, broth, etc. Even now, after over two decades, you still find references and even straight copied passages of text from the earliest days of the franchise in the newest rulebook. That is a consistency unparalleled by any other source of fluff, and I'm all for consistency.

Last but not least, even with the "laissez-faire" approach that GW has taken on the setting, it seems that people - including other authors - tend to look to GW for orientation first. This can be witnessed on outsourced material quickly picking up on, for example, the "Newcrons", rather than ignoring this pseudo-retcon. This exchange of ideas actually works both ways, but GW seems notably less likely to adopt something from BL (etc.) than the other way around. And don't count on seeing the contents of one BL novel referenced in another, except perhaps when they're part of a series .. and even then you'll have conflicts.
When it comes to GW sources, I'm also going with "newer source overrides older source" in case of any contradictions that cannot be worked around.

That doesn't mean that I do not incorporate anything that has not been printed elsewhere into my own personal interpretation of the 41st millennium, however. There are a number of aspects from various novels and games that I have adopted into my perspective as well, all depending on how cool I subjectively thought they were, as well as (perhaps even more important) how well they fit in or can be made to fit in. In this, I do not incorporate the entire product but just the things I liked.

The cherrypicking from non-GW sources is something I rarely discuss here, however, simply because that is even more personal and subjective than my preference for GW fluff, which I also regard as a sort of "common ground" between us. So, whenever I'm posting about fluff, consider it to be referring to GW material. Any exceptions to this will be specially marked by me, and usually take the form of suggestions of something to potentially draw inspiration from if the reader likes what he or she sees.

Interesting. I remember reading this a while ago I will think about and its application. Seeing as the common ground is the codexes...

See, that's where basic knowledge of science could help you look smarter.

I suggest wikipedia, looking up what a Plasma is, what the relation to a fusion powered stellar body is, and how exactly that "miniature star" would behave on a battlefield.

Hint: it can only transfer so much heat as it was given to begin with, dissipates some along the way, does not obliterate the whole squad when containment fails.

Calling it a miniature star is a huge stretch if it can't even damage a Leman Russ.

The plasma "bolts" fired by these weapons explode on impact and generate the destructive heat of a small sun,

Thats from the space marine codex.

This probably says alot about how thick space marine and leman russ armor is in general as it is able to withstand a sun. As apparently melta weapons are even stronger. But the trade off being a melta weapon runs out of ammo quite quickly compared to a plasma weapon, and a plasma weapon is meant as an anti-infantry weapon.

We're all laughing at you, so I guess that's only fair.

No you are laughing at me, because of immaturity and thinking you are winning.

Well, you certainly didn’t read Mark Of Calth.

Mark of Calth is techincally noncanon and not taking place in the world of 40k. Its an interpretation. When in parts of the lore mostly the Horus Heresy book supplied by GW ie. the Collected visions says this is not true and has space marines fighting on the surface of Calth.

This is a contradiction and one that means that the mark of Calth is non-canon.

He doesn't need to take out a hundred marines though.

And he's a Psyker.

He/she might be, but they aren't very strong pyskers. Starcraft's pyschic powers are extremely limited compared to 40ks. The strongest pysker in starcraft is Sarah Kerrigan who can destroy a battlecruiser realitvely easily. The strongest type of pysker in 40k is an Alpha level pysker. Who can control entire planets, Alpha Levels are extremely rare. A Space Marine Librarian is noted to being quite strong pysker, their powers can be various, and with a flick of their hand can send someone into a bursting inferno.

Ghosts are assassins. Not frontline troops. Anyone that thinks different hasn't read the lore. Ghosts die rather quickly in the lore and also Ghosts do not have powerful pyschic powers as a ground troop. The most basic ghost can only read minds.

A spectre is very different in comparision. Which is more powerful version of a ghost.

Yes, yes you are.

Defamation won't get you anywhere here.

Watching Morgoth trash talk others, when he himself is notorious for getting everything wrong on so many treads.

I have seen that several times. He has already made several wrong statements.

Basically you're conflating a credible scientific projection that I make with the undefined mythic material called ceramite of which we know only one thing: "power armor spehs mareeehn best metal".

Ceramite is nothing until it's been properly defined by GW, which is exactly what's wrong with everything technological in the 40K fluff: it sucks balls. It's not real sci-fi, it's low quality futuristic fantasy.

Heres the thing. If you try to define something that does not exist, it only becomes technobabble. Unless you actually know what it is.

Such as someone trying to delve into time travel. You can explain it all you want in a book. But that doesn't make it correct or anyway quantifable or in anyway similar.

Starcraft does a very similar thing where it only states a real world material and does not go the cliched route of making up a new material entirely.

Even though there are stronger materials that do exist outside of steel.

The stories and the universe are nice and all, but there is no depth, no illusion of another world that lasts more than a few seconds because the background is so simple yet dumb and devoid of science (even lite or fiction).



In that context, the only thing we can say about the power armor is that according to Astartes, it's totally badass, as is just about everything in the game according to the lore (really who isn't über in their own fluff ???).

The comparison with Starcraft Marines can only be done in relative terms: Space Marines are elite units whereas Starcraft Marines are cannon fodder.

Considering space marines can survive from missile explosions, heavy bolters and their own weaponry relatively easily. Tt says alot more about their armor and protection than them getting killed by a minitature sun weapons.

In context of the lore space marines die quite often. It is stupid to think that space marines haven't lost any battles. Such as the Battle of Damnos and the Eye of Terror Campagin. Or the Babd War. Which techincally was a lose for a few chapters of space marines.

Or the last stand of the Lamenters.

Or the Extinction of the Emperor's Scythe.

Each chapter is different in how it deploys its space marines.

But space marines according to the codexes are in fact shock troopers. It is just romanticized to seem like they fight on the front lines.

Aren't space marines a little like orks? If an injury doesn't immediately kill them then chances are they will stabilise within minutes, even if in extreme cases it means dropping into a sus-an coma, and eventually recover (through their improved healing and availability of bionics).

Sorta kind of. Orks are extremely tough, but.... they are strength 3. Not strength 4. Which is the strength of a space marine.

Making that equivalency kind of false.

It is believed that the space marines are given more strength from their power armor.

Space marines also don't have spores on their backs that serves as a means to reproduce.