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So running at Mach 39 and throwing a headless carnifex is fine?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So running at Mach 39 and throwing a headless carnifex is fine?

Yes!

That works. Nothing wrong here.

I would say Mach 7 is the max effective speed of a space marine. 5 if carrying a Carnifex, 4 for Tervigon

 Ashiraya wrote:
Oh wait, we are considering Black Library canon for this? Noice.

That, unfortunately, means the SM win this with ease.

The Spartans are very good and the Starcraft Marines have their advantages as well, but then the Marines start running.

Starcraft Marines are human. Marines explicitly move faster than human eyes can follow. And for your information, what your eyes can't follow, your guns certainly can't either. FTR, the speed at which something must move before the eye literally can't follow it is something akin to 504,000 mph. Good luck hitting that target, lol.

Spartans are also faster than normal humans (IIRC?) which would give them a fighting chance in theory, but they would still simply be outmatched. 'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80. Even if we for some obscure reason assume the Starcraft Marine armour is tougher even than PA, they would suffer death by a thousand cuts before they could strike as much as a single blow back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For a list of interesting things to consider before you say the Space Marines are beaten, take a look at http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

Do you really believe that ?

Do you realize that the only way to express a tracking limitation is in radians or degrees per second, and that the distance to the object is very relevant.

Maybe that 504000 MPH, which would be Mach183 not 80, is an accurate figure for an asteroid five thousand kilometers away ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:
We already went over that part.

The popular thought here is that, Stimpacks put marines and marauders on (at least) equal footing with Eldar in terms of speed and reflexes.

And the Eldar completely obliterate Space Marines in the fluff of the Eldar.


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80.

Fortunately for the non-GW marines we can just dismiss this as "the author is an idiot" because mach 80 space marines don't appear anywhere else and IIRC the description of the supposed mach 80 space marine isn't even consistent with that kind of speed.

Yeah, no sonic boom, no marine disintegrating from the forces exerted on the armour and body etc.

I mean lets assume that they're accelerating to their top speed in around the same time as Usain Bolt (after all, there's no point in moving faster than the eye can see if it takes you an hour to get to that speed). Bolt manages to get an acceleration out of the starting blocks of around 9.5m/s^2, allowing him to reach his top speed of 12.2m/s in around 1.28 seconds.

For a Space Marine to accelerate to 504,000mph (which is 225,300 m/s) in that amount of time they'd need to have an acceleration of 176,015m/s^2. Which is 17,942 times larger than acceleration due to Earth's gravity.

To put that into perspective, for a planet to have that kind of gravitational pull it would have to have the mass of ~18,000 Earths.

Now I have my doubts as to something needing to move that fast to be too fast for the human eye (it'll depend on the size of the object, for starters) so I'm gonna pick a much lower speed to see how that compares.

If we say 300mph, then we get an acceleration of 104m/s^2. This is 10 times faster than acceleration due to gravity on earth, so it's the equivalent of acceleration due to gravity on a planet 1.1 times the mass of earth.

That's still ridiculous, though.

What is it with people and math ?

104 m/ss = 10G equals ten times the fething mass, not 1.1 times. Besides, it would take the exact 10 times mass within the same radius for your example to work. (M1*M2/dd)

What is relevant however, is that 10G is an acceleration commonly handled by top guns and non-girly-spaceshuttle astronauts.
Just kidding, it's actually rather rare, Saturn V had a top acceleration of 11G and that was really the worst thing they'd made that far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait if we are using the fluff, then let's see...

Spoiler:

Grasping one talon in the formidable grip of his power fist, Neleus dragged the lictor creature out of the sand and held it momentarily, dangling from its own fore-talon. Then, with a swift movement, he crushed the talon in his fist and launched the hapless creature in the air with a swing of his immense arm, riddling it with hellfire shells as it flew. By the time it landed back in the sea of its own kind, the creature was little more than a shredded husk.

Terminators can throw a 1 ton lictor with a single arm and riddle it with bullets.

Spoiler:

Balder's fellow veterans were in formation around him, discharging volleys of lasfire from their multilasers, providing support for Hoenir's squad.

Veterans use Multilasers.

Spoiler:

With a blinding blast of red light, the Assault Marine's jump-pack went critical and its fuel cells detonated, firing him down towards the ground like a giant bolter shell. Even from where he was standing, Gabriel could see the Marine was working to release the grenades that were clipped around his belt, flinging them down into the formation of eldar below him even as he rocketed down towards them. The disciplined aliens seemed unphased (sic) for a fraction of a second, holding their firing vectors until they realised what was about to happen. Then, as the xenos creatures began to scatter away from the Wave Serpents, the string of grenades smacked into the ground and detonated all at once, blowing a huge crater into the desert and rocking the nearest Wave Serpent. In an instant, the Marine's jump-pack roared down towards the vehicle, spiralling on its axis now that it had been jettisoned by the Marine himself, until it punched heavily into the gunnery cockpit on top of the Wave Serpent, blowing it clean off the vehicle and engulfing the whole thing in a giant red fireball. The Marine himself ploughed down into the desert nearby.

Jump Packs go boom with enough strength to explode a Wave Serpent.

Much better still, that Wave Serpent has a gunnery cockpit. lmao.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

There is no canon. However, if there is something that is contradicted by every other piece of fluff ever written, and that does not make for an interesting universe, you can safely discard it from your headcanon. Or just take a less literal explanation.

Why does it matter who is strongest between a Spartan a Space Marine and an Adeptus Astartes when Sly Marbo has already killed all 3?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

There is no canon. However, if there is something that is contradicted by every other piece of fluff ever written, and that does not make for an interesting universe, you can safely discard it from your headcanon. Or just take a less literal explanation.

Headcanon. Nice word.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

Who decides where this line is to be drawn?

When space marines running mach 40 and being able to throw a carnifex.

A Space Marine running Mach 40 and German supplexing a Carnifex is completely fine though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

Who decides where this line is to be drawn?

When space marines running mach 40 and being able to throw a carnifex.

A Space Marine running Mach 40 and German supplexing a Carnifex is completely fine though.

No thats still over the top mach 30 and supplexing a dreadnought sounds about right though.

There is no canon. However, if there is something that is contradicted by every other piece of fluff ever written, and that does not make for an interesting universe, you can safely discard it from your headcanon. Or just take a less literal explanation

Read what I have said.

Look what you have said.

Thats a logical leap right there.

What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Get your head out of arse Hybrid and taking my words and bastardizing them into something they are not.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Read what I have said.

I was talking to Ashiraya, and referencing Lynata. I do not care about what you have said.

I put him on ignore. I think he's trolling at this point anyway.

Now I'm just seeing how long this can go before it gets the axe.

I still say the fluff doesn't matter, the tabletop is the real litmus test. Astartes are joke in that case.

Martel732 wrote:
I put him on ignore. I think he's trolling at this point anywya.

Now I'm just seeing how long this can go before it gets the axe.

I still say the fluff doesn't matter, the tabletop is the real litmus test. Astartes are joke in that case.

Who Hybrid?

Or me? I have trying to talk to both sides. And I have conceded to points that have been made.

Space Marines win in the fluff. And starcraft marines lose no matter what.

This whole thread is an entirely a joke.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Who Hybrid?

Or me?

He cannot answer you, because he cannot read you .

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected .

Aside from Ash, it looks like most people here, who previously were ignorant of the StarCraft marines and Spartans, have learned a thing or two about them, and wont underestimate them in the future.

As it turned out, a battle between space marines and Terran marines surprisingly enough favored the Terrans. I feel like this is the result of the Terran’s overall better gear and easy accessibility to better support and numbers, whereas space marine are an ill-conceived and self-contradictory elite force, who doesn’t know what it wants to be.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Who Hybrid?

Or me?

He cannot answer you, because he cannot read you .

I like how he thinks you might be the one on ignore though.

Guess what Ash, you're on pretty much everyone's ignore list in this thread by now. At least pretty much all those who use the ignore button at all.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected .

Aside from Ash, it looks like most people here, who previously were ignorant of the StarCraft marines and Spartans, have learned a thing or two about them, and wont underestimate them in the future.

As it turned out, a battle between space marines and Terran marines surprisingly enough favored the Terrans. I feel like this is the result of the Terran’s overall better gear and easy accessibility to better support and numbers, whereas space marine are an ill-conceived and self-contradictory elite force, who doesn’t know what it wants to be.

The fact that GW neglects to elaborate on their own creation, instead relying a bunch of independent writers to do so doesn't help matters.
I think a Space Marine is indeed superior to a Terran Marine, or at least, intended to be. I also think that for an franchise that's so dependent on it's IP its sorely lacking in details and tends to be poorly executed.
GW in a nutshell, really.
Starcraft wins out in that regard; more details, more consistency.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected .

Aside from Ash, it looks like most people here, who previously were ignorant of the StarCraft marines and Spartans, have learned a thing or two about them, and wont underestimate them in the future.

As it turned out, a battle between space marines and Terran marines surprisingly enough favored the Terrans. I feel like this is the result of the Terran’s overall better gear and easy accessibility to better support and numbers, whereas space marine are an ill-conceived and self-contradictory elite force, who doesn’t know what it wants to be.

Yes because Starcraft Marines are incredibly elite.

They are not powerful.

Lets see what have I said in this thread: Hmmm..


If you ignore me and say I don't know anything about starcraft I've been playin starcraft since early 2000.

Infact starcraft is one of my favorite game series. Saying I am ignorant of it is saying of something of you and assuming I don't know anything. I would love to be in defense of starcraft.
But in this case I can't because 40k is basically the dragon ball z in this match up. Over the Top and stupidly powerful.

Considering I played competitve starcraft for years and years saying I am ignorant is just extremely rude in this regard.

Considering all that has happened is me providing evidence and sources and you providing no sources, no information just heresay and what you think and assuming that means it stronger.

I have provided that evidence and you have not. Just relying on gameplay elements instead of lore examples.

You have said things like:

WE have all agreed that Terran marines with stims make them as fast eldar.

With that in mind I ask you this..

What type of mutagens, drugs or chemicals are placed inside these stimpacks.

AS we know the drugs in Warhammer 40k have multiple chemicals that don't even exist.

We are comparing two things and two different universes, there are bound to be people who like to compare a fictional metal to real life metal. But we can't we don't have specifics. We don't know how hard the material is.

We don't know how reactive it is to modern day gunfire. We don't have a reference for that. We only have heresay.

I Know a few peeps on here who keep trying to say it, but they haven't done anything to prove it otherwise.

For the purposes of debate we require three things

1. Believablity - Does it make sense in terms of argument?
2. Sources - Where are you getting this information
3. Credibility - How does your audience percieve the information you are giving, are you insulting or giving information out of your butt.

Sources are what help move a debate. The more you post and say this and that are true but I am more true than you because I say so. Are not at all credible.

Infact in this debate we have people who have said things like this

Marines can take out BattleCruisers

Okay yes in terms of game mechanics but then we have in the lore. More specifically the starcraft books where the marines can't kill the battlecruisers.Mostly Liberty's Crusade a book detailing how marines are unable to actually shoot down a battle cruiser and have to run and duck into cover and hope to god the air support does not see you.

In fact one of my favorite bits of lore ever is the Great War where Jim Raynor acts as a Confederate and fights for the Confederacy.

Or there bit where a Goliath faced an ultralisk. I don't know both are quite awesome.

uess what Ash, you're on pretty much everyone's ignore list in this thread by now. At least pretty much all those who use the ignore button at all.

How very mature of you ^.^

I won't back down on this debate if people keep attacking me and thinking me stupid because I don't agree.

This says more about you that it does me.

Starcraft wins out in that regard; more details, more consistency.

It also helps that most of blizzard's writing staff work together and discuss this stuff more often and try to make it believable first rather than for because it is cool. Like GW does, but GW has weapons that make us go thats impossible. When really its their universe that has these bizarre rules that 40k has.

Mostly the fact that space marines also have access to 6km ships and planet killing weaponry.

Where STarcraft's greatest weapons are nukes. Where the imperium's greatest weapons are planet killing or solar system killing.

Space Marines do not go into combat unprepared and the entire idea that people think that space marines are unsuperior to their terran marines. Is mostly based on biased idea, rather that actual comparision data or any form of data.


For this sake of the argument I will pull up some old data from a friend of mine who did a similar argument on this.

Mostly based on this myth that the imperium does not have access to railguns....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/345467.page

The Imperium may have the rare piece of dark age technology which surpasses that of any other races, its just that most of its is either lost, or next to othing is known about it so as it cannont be reproguced or even properally maintained. The Tau have high tech equiptment on a large scale wheras the Imperium of the 41st Millenium has to rely on lower grade mass produced tech because they are laregly unable to produce the better stuff (which they inevitably end up losing altogether). Circa Great Crusade definately the Imperium, at least on a small scale (though is a pulse rifle more advanced than a bolter?), before that man had tech on par with the Eldar, if not even more advanced, nowadays their mostly using clunky pieces of junk, but they may have the juicier stuff stashed away here and there (that'll never be used due to Mechanicus sanctions).

the Imperium certaintly has a vaster knowledge of Technology.


the T'au, however, have a greater degree of applied Technology.

the Imperium has Railguns too, but they are massive and only mounted on space ships. the T'au have managed to make the Tech more efficient to where it can be put on land units.

the Imperium's Plasma weaponry is at the same level as the T'au, but the T'au don't use the Tech to it's full potential and keep the weapons to a safe level. the Imperium has no such safety concerns and makes more powerful weapons.

the Imperium has an edge in Space Travel too. the T'au, being a Psykerless race, can't harness the full potential of the Warp Drive and can only make short jumps.


T'au are also limited by their lifespans. they only live about 40 standard terran years while humans like at least twice as long, up to 10 times as long with Juvnat treatments. a T'au firewarrior simply won't ever get to an experiance level a Human can because he won't ever see as many battlefields.

on the issue of AI:

while the T'au are currently enjoying the benifits of AI, History must be remembered.

Humanity also had AI once. they were called the Iron Men, fully autonomous hominoids capable of thinking and perfoming independent action.

then these AI's realized they didn't need Humans anymore and so the War of the Iron Men began, triggering the end of the Dark age of Technology and the fall of the Old Night.

Humanity eventually eradicated the Iron Men, but they weren't forgotten. Humans realized that AI that is capable of human level thought processes was dangerous.


true AI was replaced with what is called the Machine Spirit. a computer made up of both Biological and mechanical componts. as a result, the AI can't function or replicate without Human intervention at some point in time and is prevented from rebelling.



the T'au will eventually suffer the same issues. they will realize that their own pathetic bodies are poorly suited to warfare in this Galaxy. they will create warrior machines who will eventually rebel against the T'au.

the T'au will be ill suited to stopping their AI rebellion because of the small empire size and realitivly low T'au to AI ratio they will have.

The Space marines are in terms of regard are called warriors without peer. This is not even getting into the debate of how much damage a space marine weapon can do.

Considering it is basically firing an artillery weapon. But due to balance space marines on the tabletop cannot represent this.

But there are movie marines which are considered to be lore friendly and can take out entire armies by themselves. (Read White Dwarf 300)

The Imperium also has access to what the starcraft universe doesn't even have. Warp Drives. The imperium has mastered the stars and rules a gaxaly wide empire. AT its height it almost conquered the whole bloody thing. While the entire starcraft universe is in the korpulu sector a small amount of space compared to the imperium.

What some are saying is that a company of space marines are unable to pacify a human race when they have faced the same type of thing before. During the Great Crusades, Space marines faced different amounts of threats and warriors. They faced during the Great Crusade many horrors and creatures that make the Terrans quite self conscious.

The terrans can barely defeat the zerg. The Imperium faces the Tyranids an ever evolving force that evolves while it is fighting. Not to mention the space marines have killed entire fleets, while the starcraft universe has been unable to manage defeating the zerg. At all.

Now people have brought up ghosts and their abilities, but have yet to list any. Going by starcraft lore that I have read and remember they are very passive abilities, such as reading opponents minds and being able to push stuff with their powers. But them being pyschic, is true but their powers are quite underpowered compared to a space marine libarain who can actually cast bolts of fire and crush bones with very little effort.

We also have the issue about stimpacks

"These inbuilt chemical delivery systems dose marines with a powerful mix of synthetic adrenaline, endorphins, and a psychotropic aggression enhancer. Marines on stims benefit from greatly increased speed and reflexes, but are subject to long-term side effects including and not limited to insomnia, weight loss, mania/hypomania, seizures, paranoiac hallucinations, internal hemorrhaging, and cerebral deterioration. Nonetheless, both commanders and the marines themselves stand by the use of stims as essential to their continued survival and effectiveness on the battlefield."

^This does not mean they are stronger or faster than a space marine. These are temporary only last for a few amount of seconds, but they can't abuse it all the time in combat or become completely unable to deliver the chemicals.

In terms of armor the terran marines have CMC powered combat armor which has a limited amount of power compared to it.

The CMC-300 Powered Combat Suit is the much improved successor to the CMC-200. It was already in service by 2478[17] and was standard issue to marines during the Great War.[18] The CMC-300 masses several hundred pounds and adds a foot to the wearer's height.[10] Old Confederate-era CMC-300's continue to be issued to some Dominion garrisons after the Brood War.[19] The suit is powered by cold fusion cartridges that are inserted into the suit's chest.[20] These reactors have an operational failure rate of less than 0.5% in the field, a figure so impressive that it's regularly attributed to divine providence.

The upper back section of the suit houses a series of tubes which make up the bulk of an efficient liquid cooling system, assisted by a twin set of high-speed turbines. These "afterburners," as they are commonly known, vent the heat generated by the suit’s power supply, and the temperature buildup in harsh atmospheric conditions.[21]

The CMC-300 also has the following features:

Marine SC1 Art2
CMC-300 armor (variant aesthetic)
Advanced NBC shielding.[18]
Aural Directional Enhancers: Help clarify the source of external and transmitted sounds.[22]
Full life support.[10]
Gravity Generation: The suit is compatible with gravity accelerators for use on space platforms.[12] Grav-boots may provide an alternative though.[23]
Enhanced protection, but can still be penetrated by a needle gun.[10]
HUD: A Heads-Up Display (HUD) is built into the visor. Its features include infra-red vision,[11] a "navigation mode" which superimposes a map of surrounding terrain and pinpoints prominent features,[22] targeting systems,[24] is capable of displaying life support as a percentage and the amount of ammunition in a soldier's equipped weapon, the ability to detect motion to some extent,[25] and a data system which, with the appropriate link, can let the user 'jack in' to video and data feeds, the information scrolling across the visor.[22][17] The visor itself may be lowered/raised[26] and/or (un)polarized at the user's discretion,[22] though will automatically (un)polarize based on the intensity of light hitting it.[17] Colors that can result include black[26] and gold.[22]
Integrated communication system.[22]
Lockdown System: Used to stabilize wounded soldiers and/or prevent a shorted-out suit from misfiring. The disadvantage is that it prevents the user from moving.[24]
At least some versions of the suit pump narcotics into the wounded wearer's bloodstream when its user is wounded, which can cause the wearer to fall unconscious.[10]
Mufflers which reduce the amount of noise the suit makes and the user's heat signature.[10] Difference exists as to how much sound is masked however.[27]
Shoulder and/or chest mounted illuminators.[26] The spectrum is determined via voice activation.[22]
Structural Support: The amount of support that the suit provides is greatly increased from the CMC-200 model, increasing his/her strength and speed, stamina no longer becoming an issue. The servos enable a wearer to dash up steep slopes and safely land from heights of twenty feet.[22]
The C-14 rifle may be connected to and powered by the suit.[22]
Marine SC2 Cncpt4
CMC design
Overall, the suit is a marked improvement over its predecessor. However, its extensive servo-systems leave it vulnerable to immobilization should they be disrupted (e.g. a hydralisk scythe plunging into the chest).[24] The amount of power it consumes is also extensive; the helmet is generally left off outside of combat to conserve energy

Accordingly this armor is advanced, but there is power consumption problems with it as it has been listed as this armor locks down if it has received damage to central systems. Something the Space Marines do not have to worry about as much.

CMC armor is powerful but it lacks a suitable power source for suitable amount of time hence why marines have to recharge quite often according to the lore.

It also has the problem of delivering drugs that might knock out the user. Which again the space marines don't have to deal with having superior medical technology that saves them quite often.

The only superiority among the CMC is radiation protection, but considering neither side have access to nukes.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I won't back down on this debate if people keep attacking me and thinking me stupid because I don't agree.

It is not about what you think, it is about how you act about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
This says more about you that it does me.

It says something about all of us rather than the single of you.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. Warhammer 40K has continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. Warhammer 40K has continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

Exactly. I remember reading that bit, but we all agree that space marine ground work or middle ground is by GW. I remember hearing the unreliable narrator argument. And I quite agree with that conjecture or idea.

Yeah that reminds me of the debate whether how tall a space marine truly is.

Especially how they are sometimes described as 10 feet tall or a 7 feet tall. We are not really sure in this degree.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I won't back down on this debate if people keep attacking me and thinking me stupid because I don't agree.

It is not about what you think, it is about how you act about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
This says more about you that it does me.

It says something about all of us rather than the single of you.

^
Those sentences make little sense. Please correct them and look at the argument presented, not the poster.

Personal attacks will not get you anywhere here.



In terms of what has been presented. All that has been said has been repeated and thrown off again and again. Mostly because this thread's people who support starcraft have all ignored the first page and the multiple threads I have showed.

If you want to part of the discussion please read both sides. Not fit yourself an echo chamber and think yourself superior in that regard when you ignore information and just keep to your argument. You can say well ASherian you have been doing that. Not really, my argument hasn't changed but I have said many things which have been ignored. If I have posted sources and information you should read them. Not assume just because I am posting them they are wrong. Also because I have agreed on many things. Such as the culture, old man's war marines, and the starship troopers being able to give the space marines their asses.

You can block people all you want. But your just making an echo chamber for yourself. This is the same argument I presented to many users who use the block button. You can use it, but it is your own discretion. Infact I block most users because its actually easier to read peoples arguments if I can hide users posts. I should probably ask the Dakka Admins and Moderators if we can add a function where we can hide someones posts so we don't have to see it all the time. Man that would be useful.

Also we have this debate whether to who would win a fight. Most these fights get quite heated. No matter the subject matter.

 Happyjew wrote:
but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

With that in mind, a better way to look at space marines is just to think of them as a propaganda tool. Maybe space marine are so rare because they don’t even exist.
Perhaps they all died out during the Horus Heresy and the grand tales we hear about them and their supposed heroics, may simply be nothing more than lies and myths spread by the rulers of the imperium.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

With that in mind, a better way to look at space marines is just to think of them as a propaganda tool. Maybe space marine are so rare because they don’t even exist.
Perhaps they all died out during the Horus Heresy and the grand tales we hear about them and their supposed heroics, may simply be nothing more than lies and myths spread by the rulers of the imperium.

Err. Then how do you explain the eye of terror campagin where USkar Creed met with the Dark Angels

I am pretty sure they are real in the lore.

They are just not as righteous and holy saviors as they appear to be. They might be more soldier like.

As the Custodes were warriors and the Astartes Soldiers.

There has been this comparision by the Word Bearers.

But there is also lore to suggest differently.

Space Marines do exist but I don't think they are as frequent.

The most common fighters in the imperium are the IG and planetary defense forces often not needing the help of space marines and being able to repel threats quite often by themselves. Most of these threats that are talked about in the lore are extremely rare on the amount of occurrences that actually happen.

Space marines are rarely called for small things, They are the big guns.

The Guard are the hammer, The Assassins the knife, the Inqusition the shield. The Space marines the sword.

Space marines don’t exist, or rather there so few of them that it doesn’t matter. It would help explain why they’re so abysmal (rule wise) and self-contradictory (fluff wise.)

All of their great achievements could simply be nothing more than propaganda stories distributed by the imperial office to keep their citizens loyal.

The fluff of 40K is nothing more than legends and myths. Even the designers of GW say so.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Space marines don’t exist, or rather there so few of them that it doesn’t matter. It would help explain why they’re so abysmal (rule wise) and self-contradictory (fluff wise.)

All of their great achievements could simply be nothing more than propaganda stories distributed by the imperial office to keep their citizens loyal.

The fluff of 40K is nothing more than legends and myths. Even the designers of GW say so.

These are the same people who also can't decided how tall a space marine is.


Space marines techincally do exist in the 40k universe. They are involved in the bigger and more determined battles. But I don't think it really matters, I think it is more of the fact that space marines are not deployed for smaller battles, they are deployed when they are needed. The guard can't always complete it.

I think they do matter but not as much as the lore says it is.

The Lore is not really myths and legends its more propaganda. Not legends.

Nah it’s all myths. If space marines truly were used in big wars the way they are portrayed in the fluff, then they would all be dead by now.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nah it’s all myths. If space marines truly were used in big wars the way they are portrayed in the fluff, then they would all be dead by now.

I don't know the ARmaggedon war two chapters were destroyed.

Remember they are special forces.

There are not a thousand marines per a chapter, and are far more effective than we think. Especially the Raptors and Raven Guard.

You can believe that, thats up to you.

It confuses me when people talk about 'Ash'. Do they mean me or Asherian Command?

In most cases I can figure out with the context, but not always.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It confuses me when people talk about 'Ash'. Do they mean me or Asherian Command?

In most cases I can figure out with the context, but not always.

YEs usually they mean me.

But Techinically I would rather be called Asherian.

Ash reminds me quite a bit of Ashley XD

 Asherian Command wrote:
Remember they are special forces.

Space marine don’t behave the same way a special force would.

They fight the enemy up front (like knights). Their leaders often challenge their opponents to an honorable dual (like knights.) They used melee weapons (like knights.)

They’re knights in space. Knights on Earth died out somewhere between the year of 1600 and 1700. Astartes died out not long after the scouring. It’s the only sensible explanation there is.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Remember they are special forces.

Space marine don’t behave the same way a special force would.

They fight the enemy up front (like knights). Their leaders often challenge their opponents to an honorable dual (like knights.) They used melee weapons (like knights.)

They’re knights in space. Knights on Earth died out somewhere between the year of 1600 and 1700. Astartes died out not long after the scouring. It’s the only sensible explanation there is.

Thats barring out many chapters that don't do that. IE. Mentors Legion, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, Raptors, Mantis Warriors, Death Spectres etc.

There are many chapters that don't do that, you can keep saying that but you won't convince me or change my mind on that.