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Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

There's only one thing to do in this situation. Continue the work. If you are an artist, of any kind, pick up your tools and do as C.H.'s staff would. Mock any and all who will stand before you without fear, for if we become silenced in any way, shape or form, then these scum shall have completed their objective.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

with a seven meter thick brick wall between them.


You've seen pictures of my dream house eh? Strong enough to take on a tornado, complete with dry moats filled with herds of angry wiener dogs. Have at you!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Frazzled wrote:
with a seven meter thick brick wall between them.


You've seen pictures of my dream house eh? Strong enough to take on a tornado, complete with dry moats filled with herds of angry wiener dogs. Have at you!


Wiener dog's form herds?

Dear god. Its like a canine version of The Walking Dead.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 cincydooley wrote:
 whembly wrote:

It is not inconsistent to believe in free speech AND be against insulting other people’s faith traditions. #CharlieHedbo

— Sally Kohn (@sallykohn) January 7, 2015



O.o


Maybe I'm missing it. What's the problem with this tweet, aside that it could be perceived as slightly victim blamey?


That's probably the main point for some I would imagine.

I get the whole "freedom of speech" thing, but I also get the "don't be an ass" thing.

It's a balancing act between the three issues:

1) I support the freedom of speech issue that they should be able to be asses.
2) I also understand why people think that they were being asses and I also agree that it's not nice to be an ass..
3) It's also not justified to be bigger asses by assaulting them (at any level, not just murder) for being asses.

   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 cincydooley wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


It depends on what is meant by "be against insulting religious tradition".

If it means you think its rude and spiteful to insult religious beliefs and therefore not a good thing to do, then yes its a valid point.

But if you think you can be pro-Freedom of speech, but want to ban/criminalise offending religious sensitivities, then you have profoundly misunderstood the concept of Freedom of Speech.

Freedom of Speech includes the freedom to ridicule, mock and insult religion.


In simplest terms:

Freedom of speech grants you the leeway to be a dick. It doesn't mean you have to be a dick.

I don't want to ban/criminalize anything. But I think people need to understand that just because you can legally do something doesn't mean it's free of consequences.


Consequences of having people not buy your news paper, sure. No use of speech is worthy of these consequences .

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 djones520 wrote:


Consequences of having people not buy your news paper, sure. No use of speech is worthy of these consequences .


Please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying it's right. But as this painfully prophetic article details, it shouldn't be terribly unexpected when in regards to militant Islam.

From the article, from 2013:


With a bit of luck people will either ignore Charlie Hebdo’s comic book or respond with decent criticisms and dignified protest. What I fear is a repeat of so many previous instances where political opportunists use its publication to whip up further hostility to the West and portray us as all inherently Islamaophobic. The vicious circle then continues as attacks on Islam in the West become more deliberately provocative.

Whatever happens, one thing is above all else is worth repeating. Responsibility for any violence meted out against Charlie Hebdo or its staff rests solely on the shoulders of those carrying out the violence. If there is a violent reaction against the French satirical magazine, whether you agree with what they have published or not, they will not deserve it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/07 19:11:40


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
with a seven meter thick brick wall between them.


You've seen pictures of my dream house eh? Strong enough to take on a tornado, complete with dry moats filled with herds of angry wiener dogs. Have at you!


Wiener dog's form herds?

Dear god. Its like a canine version of The Walking Dead.


Indeed. Once there are 100 wiener dogs burrowed under blankets on a sofa they are no longer a pack, they are a herd. They are an army. They are Legion!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

I hope they weren't Algerian. Things are tense enough with the Algerian community.

   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Don't some Shia's flay themselves?

During the Ashura. They do not flay themselves though, they more cut themselves and/or flail themselves.
 cincydooley wrote:
When we talk about free speech, and I think it's very important, we seemingly do so with the notion that free speech is free of consequence. It's not.

Oh, no, it is not. Charlie Hebdo loosing revenue because people stopped buying them would be a completely normal consequence that would have nothing to do with free speech. This, however, is something entirely different where, yes, it was completely a case about free speech. If you are targeted by anything illegal for something you said, this is a case of free speech, you should be protected from that kind of things.
 Sigvatr wrote:
4 dead pieces of meat.

That nobody will eat, so what good is that?
 Sigvatr wrote:
100% safe they'll never do it again.

What are the chance anyway?
 Sigvatr wrote:
And yes, if a state can look like having clean hands to the public while still doing the right thing, then that's the perfect solution for everyone.

That totally mean that the state can do terrible, terrible things while looking like having clean hand in public. And that seems a very, very bad thing to me.
 Sigvatr wrote:
There is something inherently wrong with people wanting tax payers to PAYfor mass murderers. Do you want to pay for the living of mass murderers? I certainly wouldn't.

They can make people work in prison.
 cincydooley wrote:
Riiiiight.

When all of Europe is screaming at the top of their lungs about water boarding and sleep deprivation at GitMo, they're going to be suddenly fine with putting bamboo shoots in fingernails in France.

Hookay.

Well, he is not from France. Or even Europe.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What good will their lives bring?

Maybe nothing. Maybe something if they repent and try to attune.
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If it means you think its rude and spiteful to insult religious beliefs and therefore not a good thing to do, then yes its a valid point.

Uh what?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in nl
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






North of your position

Uhh.. am I the only one around here that thinks keeping 'em locked up all alone in some isolation cell for the rest of their lives is a worse punishment than just killing them?

   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Da Boss wrote:
I hope they weren't Algerian. Things are tense enough with the Algerian community.

Well, I doubt many people will care about the difference if they were Tunisians or Moroccans.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Ghost of Greed and Contempt






Engaged in Villainy

On the "freedom of speech" argument, I would suggest that yes, freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want, but no, you are not absolved from the consequences.
HOWEVER, nothing justifies this kind of barbarism. I cannot imagine the mindset that demands death in retribution for an insulting cartoon.

I hope that the French military/police/whoever catches up to them and stops them before they can do any more damage - and I can't say I'd be upset by the idea of these terrorists being killed in the process of stopping them.

"He was already dead when I killed him!"

Visit my Necromunda P&M blog, here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/747076.page#9753656 
   
Made in us
Crazed Bloodkine




Baltimore, Maryland

Man, the comments on Al-Arabiya English facebook page are depressing.

Quite a few justifying the murders, and others blaming Mossad, for EU's recent overtures to Palestine. FFS.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
On the "freedom of speech" argument, I would suggest that yes, freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want, but no, you are not absolved from the consequences.

Which kind of illegal acts would be consequences they should not be “absolved” from?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Chwast one of the AK's have a grenade launcher on it and it was used to in the building.

Shooters claiming their were with AQ. Yet I haven't heard any organization claiming the attack

Shot pattern on the windshield of the LEO cruiser was pretty well grouped with a AK fired by somebody use to firing it

The coldness of the one walking up to the wounded LEO and braining him indicates the shooter use to killing someone that close

Not going to look at a map and see how many autobahns run through or near Paris let alone metro train lines

Heck they're probably a few towns over and lying low in a Muslim community

I really really hope they do not get away but I've a the vibe they're gone.


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in au
Terminator with Assault Cannon






brisbane, australia

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Uhh.. am I the only one around here that thinks keeping 'em locked up all alone in some isolation cell for the rest of their lives is a worse punishment than just killing them?

because then they cost money. other wise you're right.

*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 the shrouded lord wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
Uhh.. am I the only one around here that thinks keeping 'em locked up all alone in some isolation cell for the rest of their lives is a worse punishment than just killing them?

because then they cost money. other wise you're right.


On the other hand, maybe the worst thing you can do to someone that is ready to be a martyr is refusing to martyr him.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 cincydooley wrote:
When we talk about free speech, and I think it's very important, we seemingly do so with the notion that free speech is free of consequence. It's not.

Oh, no, it is not. Charlie Hebdo loosing revenue because people stopped buying them would be a completely normal consequence that would have nothing to do with free speech. This, however, is something entirely different where, yes, it was completely a case about free speech. If you are targeted by anything illegal for something you said, this is a case of free speech, you should be protected from that kind of things.


For once we're in agreement. Exalted.


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If it means you think its rude and spiteful to insult religious beliefs and therefore not a good thing to do, then yes its a valid point.

Uh what?


Its not complicated.

We were discussing a quote from twitter. "You can be for freedom of speech, and against insulting religion".

The key part I think, is what do you mean by "be against".

If you mean you think its rude and spiteful, then yes the statement is valid.
But if you think that Freedom of Speech does not apply to "insulting religion", then you [the Twitter user who made the comment] have profoundly misunderstood what Freedom of Speech is.


Freedom of Speech is not the freedom to only say things that meet the prevailing standards of Political Correctness.


   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Medium of Death wrote:


Video somewhat related. Christopher Hitchens talking about the protests over Rushdie in Pakistan re "Insulting" Islam.


Very relevant, the fatwa on Salman Rushie in the 80's was a foreshadowing of these events and similar attacks.
It as eventually repealed, but Rushdie spent many years in hiding.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






The shooters were not out to be Martyr.

The guy in Australia who held hostages was open minded to be Martyred as I mention in that thread. He seemed quite prepared to meet Allah to be judged

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Uhh.. am I the only one around here that thinks keeping 'em locked up all alone in some isolation cell for the rest of their lives is a worse punishment than just killing them?


Frankly I just hope they are found. If taken alive, however the justice system in France handles them is fine by me. If this happened stateside I would hope the prosecutor would go for the death penalty, but understand not all countries have it or approve of it. France has their laws and procedures, let them use these as they see fit.

I think getting them alive will prove an interesting undertaking. These seem to be the type (based on the video and other analysis) that are gonna prefer to go down fighting and I suspect the French agency doing the take down is not going to be particularly interested in live capture at the cost of additional casualties on their part.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 19:35:52


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 cincydooley wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


It depends on what is meant by "be against insulting religious tradition".

If it means you think its rude and spiteful to insult religious beliefs and therefore not a good thing to do, then yes its a valid point.

But if you think you can be pro-Freedom of speech, but want to ban/criminalise offending religious sensitivities, then you have profoundly misunderstood the concept of Freedom of Speech.

Freedom of Speech includes the freedom to ridicule, mock and insult religion.


In simplest terms:

Freedom of speech grants you the leeway to be a dick. It doesn't mean you have to be a dick.

I don't want to ban/criminalize anything. But I think people need to understand that just because you can legally do something doesn't mean it's free of consequences.

I'm not advocating that we're free from the consequences.

Write, call, or shout back for all I care. That's fair game.

But when lives are lost over a fething cartoon... don't say anything near "be against insulting religious tradition" because that's an attempt to deflect the conversation.

It's that mindset that's awfully close to blaming the victim.

(that's why I had a fit over Obama/Hillary's initial stance to "get that YouTube" director over Benghazi)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
There's only one thing to do in this situation. Continue the work. If you are an artist, of any kind, pick up your tools and do as C.H.'s staff would. Mock any and all who will stand before you without fear, for if we become silenced in any way, shape or form, then these scum shall have completed their objective.

Exactly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 19:45:36


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord







So will this be GIGN and French Commandos dealing with this from now on? (like how the deal with Somali pirates) or will it fall to armed police?

 Orlanth wrote:
 Medium of Death wrote:


Video somewhat related. Christopher Hitchens talking about the protests over Rushdie in Pakistan re "Insulting" Islam.


Very relevant, the fatwa on Salman Rushie in the 80's was a foreshadowing of these events and similar attacks.
It as eventually repealed, but Rushdie spent many years in hiding.


I'd imagine he's still a target.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 whembly wrote:
.

But when lives are lost over a fething cartoon... don't say anything near "be against insulting religious tradition" because that's an attempt to deflect the conversation.


Meanwhile, in a discussion about Freedom of Speech(tm) you are criticizing people for what people said when they criticized other people for what they said. Maybe we just need to go deeper.

(that's why I had a fit over Obama/Hillary's initial stance to "get that YouTube" director over Benghazi)


Congratulations about making another "reason #233,523,522 why I don't like Obama" post in a thread that has feth all to do with him...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 19:48:45


 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 d-usa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
.

But when lives are lost over a fething cartoon... don't say anything near "be against insulting religious tradition" because that's an attempt to deflect the conversation.


Meanwhile, in a discussion about Freedom of Speech(tm) you are criticizing people for what people said when they criticized other people for what they said. Maybe we just need to go deeper.

(that's why I had a fit over Obama/Hillary's initial stance to "get that YouTube" director over Benghazi)


Congratulations about making another "reason #233,523,522 why I don't like Obama" post in a thread that has feth all to do with him...


Congrats on post #13873 of you telling someone how their wrong!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 19:50:01


Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Medium of Death wrote:
So will this be GIGN and French Commandos dealing with this from now on? (like how the deal with Somali pirates) or will it fall to armed police?

 Orlanth wrote:
 Medium of Death wrote:


Video somewhat related. Christopher Hitchens talking about the protests over Rushdie in Pakistan re "Insulting" Islam.


Very relevant, the fatwa on Salman Rushie in the 80's was a foreshadowing of these events and similar attacks.
It as eventually repealed, but Rushdie spent many years in hiding.


I'd imagine he's still a target.


Ordinary LEO was cordon off the area and let a Elite unit that trained to a "T" handle a "DoorKicker" situation


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
 the shrouded lord wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
Uhh.. am I the only one around here that thinks keeping 'em locked up all alone in some isolation cell for the rest of their lives is a worse punishment than just killing them?

because then they cost money. other wise you're right.


On the other hand, maybe the worst thing you can do to someone that is ready to be a martyr is refusing to martyr him.

Gen. John J. Pershing may have the right idea.

Seriously, if they're captured alive, put 'em in the slammer. Then, don't respect their religion in prison. No prayers and plenty of pork products. They'll be denied martydom.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 djones520 wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
.

But when lives are lost over a fething cartoon... don't say anything near "be against insulting religious tradition" because that's an attempt to deflect the conversation.


Meanwhile, in a discussion about Freedom of Speech(tm) you are criticizing people for what people said when they criticized other people for what they said. Maybe we just need to go deeper.

(that's why I had a fit over Obama/Hillary's initial stance to "get that YouTube" director over Benghazi)


Congratulations about making another "reason #233,523,522 why I don't like Obama" post in a thread that has feth all to do with him...


Congrats on post #13873 of you telling someone how their wrong!


It's okay to tell people that you think what they are doing is wrong, you can even do it without telling them that they shouldn't say it to begin with.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Satire might target anyone.
Spoiler:

The trick is not to get butthurt.

RIP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/07 20:04:48


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
 whembly wrote:
.

But when lives are lost over a fething cartoon... don't say anything near "be against insulting religious tradition" because that's an attempt to deflect the conversation.


Meanwhile, in a discussion about Freedom of Speech(tm) you are criticizing people for what people said when they criticized other people for what they said. Maybe we just need to go deeper.

How deep?


(that's why I had a fit over Obama/Hillary's initial stance to "get that YouTube" director over Benghazi)


Congratulations about making another "reason #233,523,522 why I don't like Obama" post in a thread that has feth all to do with him...

Congratulations for missing the point.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
 
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