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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The problem is that the book doesn't represent Renegades either. If it did they'd have Razorbacks, various types of Land Raiders, and more up-to-date Wargear (Terminator weapons especially). In the end, by trying to represent everything they end up representing nothing; just a hodge-podge of Legion-esque units without any of the Legion-y flavour, a dash of Chaos Gods, and a whole lot of generic.

Agreed. Try to appeal to everyone and you end up appealing to no-one.

The CSM had always needed to be AT LEAST as big as the Loyalist dex (which is by far the largest codex and has been for years) if it wants to properly represent all the factions CSM can bring.

The only group you could say the codex represents is that small fraction of former Legionaries that want nothing to do with their respective Legion.

Roughly half of Chaos marines are Renegade former loyalist chapters, the other half are former legionaries but of those former legionaries only half of those or a quarter of all Chaos marines want anything to do with their former legion.

While I think the average chaos player would prefer chaos legionaries I think it'd atleast be more palatable to them if GW's attempt at Renegades was a sincere attempt to represent them.

I just think the only way you could make everyone happy is a standard CSM renegade/traitor marine book, with either optional chapter tactics contained inside, or seperate supplements for worshippers of each god, and undivided(no not just supplement Death Guard or supplement World Eaters, as that army could be achieved with a god supplement and a paint job).
It makes sense and it drives me nuts thinking about why GW want to squeeze every penny with unpopular ideas, when making specific god books would practically be printing money!

In the current meta, I find our current codex to be fine. It just needs more umph. It was a bit odd at first when we really didn't get more powerful when this codex first dropped, but now it's apparent that they were merely the first step in balancing the game out. What we are lacking are flavorful, fun units. We get a tease at every form of potential, from Dark Mech to Thousand Sons. But where's the bits that let us field a fluffy army full of said things? I really am hoping for more things like Kharn's new formation. Supplement books full of such things would be beautiful, wicked things. I feel like Chaos and Orks are badly in need of supplements to offer us more ways to play, as they're both limited in focus. Getting cultists was the best thing to happen to us because our troops are laughable at current, but that's more of a marines in general type of thing.

 Rippy wrote:
I just think the only way you could make everyone happy is a standard CSM renegade/traitor marine book, with either optional chapter tactics contained inside, or seperate supplements for worshippers of each god, and undivided(no not just supplement Death Guard or supplement World Eaters, as that army could be achieved with a god supplement and a paint job).

Except, some of us want a stripped down, streamlined Codex, like we had in 3E.

(Actually, we want hyper-streamlined lists a la the 3E rulebook).

It would be impossible to reconcile this kind of difference in goals.

OT, are legions like the Deathguard really that diverse that they need their own section in a codex? I am not super knowledgeable on their fluff, but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?

Am genuinely curious what you guys would want to see in an expanded CSM book, not trying to flame.

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, are legions like the Deathguard really that diverse that they need their own section in a codex? I am not super knowledgeable on their fluff, but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?

Am genuinely curious what you guys would want to see in an expanded CSM book, not trying to flame.

if you take a look at the HH FW books and how they do the legions, they get special traits just like chapter tactics that are army wide. certain HQ options bring otehr bonus', you also get legion specific wargear. so in the case of thousand sons, you might be looking at all units having AP3 bolt weapons. Emporers Children gain a boost to Initiave, and have wargear that decrease the I of opponents in CC. the way they are done there is a dreamland for how both CSM and SM codex's could and SHOULD be written..

 jreilly89 wrote:
... but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?

Plague Terminators.
Plague Havocs.
Nurgle-Dedicated Vehicles.
Old HH units translated into the modern era.

You can't just represent Death Guard with a few Plague Marine Squads and a green Lord.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
... but what units would you add to a Nurgle book besides the obvious Plague Marines, HQs, and Nurgle Daemons?

Plague Terminators.
Plague Havocs.
Nurgle-Dedicated Vehicles.
Old HH units translated into the modern era.

You can't just represent Death Guard with a few Plague Marine Squads and a green Lord.

What I'm saying is that, as the guy above me posted, some of that seems it could be fixed with "Traitor Tactics" or something like that. Would that be preferable, or would you really want unique Terminators and Havocs for each god?

I'd want a 3.5-style Mark system that continued a singular set of rules that governed the use of Marks. Apply a Mark of Slaanesh to a unit, and it goes from being a unit of Havocs to a unit of Noise Marine Havocs, with new options (and perhaps restrictions) based upon the rules of the Mark.

On another minor side note, if they do keep Chaos boon table, or at least apotheosis of some form, I would love for DPs to keep their current war gear.

I really hope that we get four weeks of god releases in WD at the very least. Give me Plague Terminators, would defz be buying my first termies!

Damn you Matthew waaaaaaaaard!

There's one problem with the 4 books aproach, namely that even all the faction's demons and cult troops packed together would still make for a comparably small codex, unless you stuff it with Forgeworld units. This is not that implausible, if the rumors about cult terminators are true (forge allready has khornate termis, so why not?).

What I think would be reasonable is a 3-book approach.

* Ruinous Powers - Cult troops, Demons. Playable as the dedicated legions, pure demonic or any mixture of those.

* Traitor Legions - Non-Cult Legions and recent traitor space marines.

* Lost and the damned - the usual rabble of renegade militia, mutants and the like.

 Matthew wrote:
Damn you Matthew waaaaaaaaard!

He hasn't worked at GW for at least 6 months and has nothing to do with the CSM book.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Damn you Matthew waaaaaaaaard!

He hasn't worked at GW for at least 6 months and has nothing to do with the CSM book.

Or any previous CSM books as far as I know...

Wonderwolf wrote:
Again, doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't fight like "World Eaters" in the legion sense.

I'm not that concerned about whether or not 40K Traitor Legions still fight like 30K Legions did. After all, my favourite is the Thousand Sons, and literally all of their marines except the Sorcerers are dead. They haven't been "Thousand Sons" in the Legion sense since the Rubric.

I was mostly making the point that the four classic specialist troop types ought to be, if not restricted to those four god-specific Traitor Legions, at least way more common in them.

(Though, again, I don't know where other Traitor Chapters, even those dedicated to Tzeentch, are supposed to be getting Rubricae . . . on loan? I guess.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Because it was said that this "Khorne supplement" should have distinctive and separate rules for "generic" Khorne/Berserker-armies AND "World Eaters" specifically.

No, I actually suggested something that would be described more as "generic Khorne" armies on the one hand and "Berzerker/World Eater" on the other.

Basically, if it were up to me, Berzerkers, Rubricae, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines would only be available to their associated Legions. Let the others flavour themselves with their gods by taking Daemon allies!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I just think the only way you could make everyone happy is a standard CSM renegade/traitor marine book, with either optional chapter tactics contained inside, or seperate supplements for worshippers of each god, and undivided(no not just supplement Death Guard or supplement World Eaters, as that army could be achieved with a god supplement and a paint job).

Except, some of us want a stripped down, streamlined Codex, like we had in 3E.

(Actually, we want hyper-streamlined lists a la the 3E rulebook).

It would be impossible to reconcile this kind of difference in goals.

You're right, I'd want the exact opposite.
Out of curiosity, who here wants a stripped down dex and who here would want one more like the 3.5 in terms of fluff and variety?

Why would you want a stripped down Codex when the stated opposite is a Codex with "variety"?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would you want a stripped down Codex when the stated opposite is a Codex with "variety"?

Man, choosing stuff is hard brah. Much easier to just take what the book gives you and not stress about it

They could just put some fixed army rosters in WD for the boring people.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Out of curiosity, who here wants a stripped down dex and who here would want one more like the 3.5 in terms of fluff and variety?

Definitely do not want stripped down. Setting aside GWs inability to make something half decent, I'd much rather a larger book with more comprehensive, customizable options to more accurately represent different aspects of chaos on the tabletop in a fun and effective way. The SM book was substantially larger than others, I don't see why CSM can't get a large one too.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Damn you Matthew waaaaaaaaard!

He hasn't worked at GW for at least 6 months and has nothing to do with the CSM book.

Or any previous CSM books as far as I know...

Draigo's Law will never die.

 pretre wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Damn you Matthew waaaaaaaaard!

He hasn't worked at GW for at least 6 months and has nothing to do with the CSM book.

Or any previous CSM books as far as I know...

Draigo's Law will never die.

Apparently not. :/

Rumour Sauce wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/546271.page

Just wanted to remind people that I had early information regarding this release over a year ago.

Oh yeah, I remember this rumor making the rounds...too bad it ended up being true for the wrong game. All four "Tomes of" books have been released for a while now, just for the Black Crusade RPG by Fantasy Flight.

Like I said before, so many early rumors have kernals of truth to them, but they are often misinterpreted.

For all the talk of rules, and is important, people are usually robbed or disappointed.

No matter what the strategy or the changes I look forward to God specific/ Cult Marine specific mini's and parts/upgrades/rules.

If it takes supplemental books to get there, I don't really mind, I'm not gaming, but collecting and painting.

Chaos has more layers to it than most, and all are undeserved.

-Legions, other than those already supplemented, lack much diversity or uniqueness. You can't do much special with them, and the add-ons either cost a little too much or literally don't have a model.

-Cult marines are 4 God specific troop or elite choices that cost a fortune, in game, and to your pocket. Only 'zerkers are a plastic kit, and it's ancient. Plague marines are popular, but the choices to build them are limited, Thousand sons have a wonderful aesthetic but they are lumbering slow and points heavy, and Noise Marines are amazing looking when done right, but they need more diversity also.

I would like plastic kits for all, and upgrade parts, or kits for Terminators, Havocs hopefully, and Vehicle upgrades or specific units.

Iron Hands Basilisk was a wonderful dream when I was first turned on to Chaos circa 99...

-Cultists are still the mono-pose of the Dark Vengeance box. With their meat shield and lot's of shooting people love them. They help. But God/ Legion/ Warband specific upgrades for a plastic kit? Yes Please.

-Unbound is also so vast and varied that it deserves some love. Same with the Fallen.

-Renegades also need some GW love. FW only upgrades and some book specific rules you have to postal order, and then get your friends to agree on... any Chaos player should be able to field some F'd up Guard of their own as another meat shield. A significant ally and always present part of their actions.

-I'm not fond of Daemons, but they get very little love. Same models for years. If there truly is hordes of God specific foul things, then we need more. Greater Daemons and a few small ones isn't the same. But also, maybe a way of toning down spawn-swarm spam may not ingratiate you as a player. I certainly can't imagine painting hundreds of JUST bloodthirsters or any other.



Just my 2 cents. I want better models, and rules that help sell a more coherent Chaos force that can stand up to other armies.

Vehicles and corrupted machines that also fit the Daemonic force from within aesthetic, and not machine in the shape of a monster, also should be the way of things.

What I really want (and why I'm holding onto $150 from Christmas as a gift) is for new models to be made. I'm holding on to the money in the hope that either new troops or chosen kits will be made in plastic for Chaos Space Marines.

Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Saying Chaos legions couldn't exist is equal to loyalists having only Ultramarine successors, and a handful of shady Dark Angels left.

As far as the Imperium is concerned, all SMs are basically the same. That's why the Inquisition checks up on them to ensure conformity with the Codex, in all ways. That's what all of the Successors signed on for at the time of the Second Founding, and the Inquisition should expect them all to keep their word, with Exterminatus being the accepted and understood penalty for any significant variance.

Given that 30k appears to have the Legions well in hand, why shouldn't 40k be as you suggest, with an Ultras model for all SMs, and minimal, marginal variance for DAs or BAs or SWs?

30k lets GW have it both ways for those who want high-chrome Legions and those who want streamlined post-Legion Marines.

And besides, what SM player wouldn't be proud to pay GW an extra $50 to get their dataslate of defining Special Characters backed by 2 pages of Chapter rules?

So you're suggesting anyone who wants to play fallen Legions in 40K invest in another £70 book on top of all the pre-requisites needed already, in the hope that every game they play is against someone reasonable enough to allow them to run what is, ostensibly, a list for a different game?

Do you work for GW?