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You're still missing the point. The point is not whether the CSM codex properly represents X, Y or Z. The point is we're not supposed to care. They're the badguys - that's all you need to know about them. They're the faceless mooks who are only there to give the goodguys a reason to show up and save the day. Who cares why they're armed with autocannons?

Really? With all the various races and threats to humanity, GW still refers to Chaos as the "Great Enemy". I think that simply dismissing them as unimportant becuase they are the badguys and are therefore able to be left as bland and uninteresting as possible because then you can focus on the good guys more completely misses the point.

A protaganist is defined most by the quality of their antagonist. As someone who has played 40k since second edition, in my opinion GW undestands that. I think that the issue is just that its hard for them to decide how to properly emphasis Chaos Marines without going to big, or too small. I have high hopes for the next codex. Wishful thinking? Definately. But I sill have high hopes.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
You're still missing the point. The point is not whether the CSM codex properly represents X, Y or Z. The point is we're not supposed to care. They're the badguys - that's all you need to know about them. They're the faceless mooks who are only there to give the goodguys a reason to show up and save the day. Who cares why they're armed with autocannons?

That maybe GW's perspective but its dismissive, condescending, and insincere. I don't demand perfection and I don't expect every thing "I want"; I just expect GW to do what they say they're doing and not just pay lip service to their own concepts for the sake of being lazy.

In my years of buying chaos space marines I have spent thousands of dollars and many more when you consider present value of past investments. The past C:CSM were more representative and they've only made them less so. Some would say bait and switch. Others would say the diminishing quality of a product. It is insincere to want us to buy into their hobby for as much as people do and then expect us to not care and just accept anything and everything. Its old fashioned for them to "tell us what we want" and proven as a flawed long term marketing strategy. I enjoy my Chaos army alot and even still I'm willing to accept major changes when there is a truly sincere effort to create something interesting and new. I think renegades are interesting, but everything else is old not new and not thought out.

GW's product stretches across different media and the more integrated and cohesive the presentation the happier fans are, even if it changes previous concepts. At the heart of that multi-media product is the codex; it is where hobby, game, and fiction come together. The Chaos marine codex has the greatest dissonance between those three components. GW might not want us to care about them in game, but their fiction tells us otherwise, the hobby tells us otherwise and so players demand a reconciliation. That's what its about. GW's attempts to reconcile things in the past codices was to emphasize the fiction of Renegades over Legionaries to make us rethink Chaos Marines, but they themselves did not rethink Chaos Marines beyond that. Its at that moment that they're lip service to their own concept was made most apparent. It is a tipping point in perception when fans feel they they're more invested than a multi-million dollar company.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
You're still missing the point. The point is not whether the CSM codex properly represents X, Y or Z. The point is we're not supposed to care. They're the badguys - that's all you need to know about them. They're the faceless mooks who are only there to give the goodguys a reason to show up and save the day. Who cares why they're armed with autocannons?

Yeah, that would make sense if they weren't a playable faction.

I think its even worse to say that we are not supposed to care, specially when on the other hand you have FW and BL that have expanded the HH arc on the last decade, wich did give the Traitors(or even loyalist) much more depth and less 2-dimensional or you know "Bad guy Vs Good Guy" treatement.

Also the "CSM Legions are gone, the new warbands don't have anything to do with them", ok..., then its the same with SM right?

I mean there is no more White Scars on bikes, no more infiltration and guerilla specialists raven guards, No more Siege specialists IF...Oh wait...

And even in the instance where it would be true, why can't we then have "Warbands rules/traits"?

i mean if there is as much difference between Imperial Fists First and 3rd Companies, then there is between Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, so why don't we have a right to be a Word Bearer or Alpha Legion player and be proud of it?

Right now, take 2 CSM players that play two different Legions or even Warbands, aside units composition, there is no differences, its the exact same thing, while on the other hand you have codexes where by simply adding/taking a character/particular paintjob/name, they get World aparts differences?

Explain to me why?

isn't it better to take advantage of the large CSM player base?

And don't tell me that some of the Legions have so few players that its not worht the time.

Before the supplement came out, i din't knew a single persone who played or was even interrested in Iron Hands Before!.

I knew of only ONE guy in 15years who played Raven guards.

Imperial Fists?, a pair of brothers, and they where sharing the same army.

On the Other hand i know dozens of people that collects and plays Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, or even Night Lords ffs.

Watch the Paint and Modelling boards all around the web, there is as much if not more players of certains CSM legions, compared to SM Chapters.

And for some reasons people keep saying that they are unrelevant...

All'a y'all are missin' what Doobie's saying. He's saying GW's prevailing attitude is that adversary races - that being the bad guys - are more akin to NPC's in the hero's journey and that it would be foolish to wish for any more attention than that. That is to say, if you're attempting to make Chaos into more than just the bad guys then you are forging the wrong narrative.

So, Slayer le boucher, to answer your question, "isn't it better to take advantage of the large CSM player base?", there are two answers:

1. The GW Answer - No. Every Chapter gets rules. Chaos get Chaos.
2. The common sense answer - Yes. Expand to give rules to all Legions (as FW have done so successfully).

We don't live in a world where that second answer is plausible. Why? Because GW.

I know still pisses me off though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
All'a y'all are missin' what Doobie's saying. He's saying GW's prevailing attitude is that adversary races - that being the bad guys - are more akin to NPC's in the hero's journey and that it would be foolish to wish for any more attention than that. That is to say, if you're attempting to make Chaos into more than just the bad guys then you are forging the wrong narrative.

Thank you. That is exactly what I'm saying. And the funny part is that this attitude seems to be confined to the GW design studio proper. You don't see it in the FW and BL products that focus on CSM.

So yeah, the reason why Imperial Fists get special rules is because they are siege specialists and this is one of their defining characteristics. The reason why Iron Warriors do not is because they are the badguys and that is their only defining characteristic. Or the only one that matters at least as far as the GW design studio is concerned.

And I believe that this is one the primary reasons the last 2 codices have really tried to downplay the traitor legions. In the studio's conception the traitor legions are a 30k thing, not a 40k thing. Why? Because they are the main characters of 30k. The story of the Horus Heresy is the story of the traitor legions. In 30k they are Anakin Skywalker. In 40k they're just a bunch of faceless stormtroopers. Giving them their own individual character brings them too close to becoming anti-heroes rather than NPCs.

Wish they did a new version of those old books realm of chaos the lost and the damned and slave to darkness because those books talked about the legions as well as the renegade war-bands. Had ton of fluff and rules.

Yep, that would be top of my list too. Beastmen, cultists, CSM, Daemons, traitor guard etc.. all together in a pair of God-themed, epically ponderous tomes.

My folks helped finance the building of my own home last Easter, that still hasn't completely erased the debt they accrued by throwing out my copies "by mistake."

Just put the gun to head and pull the trigger already. The new CSM codex will be bad no matter what. I expect the units that where worth taking will be increased in cost in order to make new models look better and worth taking. I expect the units that where shelved will just be out right sold for beer money. The units in the FW IA13 are the only bandaids that can make CSM remotely competitive worse yet, pass as playable. There would be no reason to buy any marine models as you can not convert them and run them as plague marines anymore. Say good bye to the blastmaster noise marines. I have 60 kb and they were only ever used as proxies for other units.

 Filch wrote:
Just put the gun to head and pull the trigger already. The new CSM codex will be bad no matter what. I expect the units that where worth taking will be increased in cost. I expect the units that where shelved will just be out right sold for beer money. There would be no reason to buy any marine models as you can not convert them and run them as plague marines anymore. Say good bye to the blastmaster noise marines.

Everytime you show up, it's bitter nonsense. Little funny to be honest.

So you dont think the new CSM dex will be a disappointment?

No cult marines might just be a blessing in disguise.

it may come off as bitter, but its still true, GW has shown in its track record that it doesn't care one bit about chaos being done properly

Thank you Formosa.

Thinking about it more. GW has been too nice to Chaos so I should not be too bitter. They put in the effort to cash in on Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, the Hellbrute formations, Cypher data slate, does IA13 count?

Chaos has been getting too much special attention.

 Filch wrote:
So you dont think the new CSM dex will be a disappointment?

No cult marines might just be a blessing in disguise.

Given the new BA codex, I'm hoping they might do CSM some good. It won't be everything you want, but it may be decent.

I'm just saying anytime someone mentions CSM, trading on Dakka, or GW in general, you seem to jump up and automatically assume the worst.

I thought assuming the worse about releases was the job of Sisters players.

Nah. Sisters players assume that the rumor of the release itself is a lie.

Chaos always gets a release, but it nerfs and buffs randomly.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. Sisters players assume that the rumor of the release itself is a lie.

Chaos always gets a release, but it nerfs and buffs randomly.

We're actually in a weird place for Sisters. The codex release rumors tend to be right, but the model rumors tend to be wrong.

If they get rid of cult marines then they should also take away Lucius, Typhus, Kharn, Ahriman. Oh and I forgot about Abaddon.

People only take Typhus for the plague zombies and the occasional plague marines.

People only take Ahriman to field TS in a theme army.

I really cant say the same for Lucius or Kharn. Most people would take a Juggerlord and not even use KB. I use to see people take a MoS Sorc to get Symphony of Pain and think it unlocks Noise Marines too but it doesn't.

Well, to be fair, no one has ever taken Lucius the Eternally Useless.

No they're gonna get rid of the mark on lord = cult marine troop

TheMisterBold wrote:
No they're gonna get rid of the mark on lord = cult marine troop

That's a given based on 7th Edition design philosophy (along with DTs becoming FA choices instead). I think the rumors that they'll be upgrades (buy the mark, become the thing) seems the most plausible so far and would solve the issue of how to make them troops without the problem of needing them to be moved from one slot to the other.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That's a given based on 7th Edition design philosophy (along with DTs becoming FA choices instead). I think the rumors that they'll be upgrades (buy the mark, become the thing) seems the most plausible so far and would solve the issue of how to make them troops without the problem of needing them to be moved from one slot to the other.

We can only hope.

But I suspect that it'll be Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/1KSons all moving to Elites, no Marks of any type, and vanilla Marines as Troops. And no Cultists.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That's a given based on 7th Edition design philosophy (along with DTs becoming FA choices instead). I think the rumors that they'll be upgrades (buy the mark, become the thing) seems the most plausible so far and would solve the issue of how to make them troops without the problem of needing them to be moved from one slot to the other.

We can only hope.

But I suspect that it'll be Berzerkers/Noise Marines/Plague Marines/1KSons all moving to Elites, no Marks of any type, and vanilla Marines as Troops. And no Cultists.

Expect the worst, hope for anything better then?

News from one of my most trusted sources, he cleans the skidmarks of the toilets in GW hq

chaos marines will be rolled into the next space marine codex

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well, to be fair, no one has ever taken Lucius the Eternally Useless.

Too true... my Doomrider sees more action.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
News from one of my most trusted sources, he cleans the skidmarks of the toilets in GW hq

chaos marines will be rolled into the next space marine codex

Poppycock. No one cleans them. They're kept clean by the constant flow of fanboy/ex-customer tears like a mountain spring.

 warboss wrote:

 mitch_rifle wrote:
News from one of my most trusted sources, he cleans the skidmarks of the toilets in GW hq

chaos marines will be rolled into the next space marine codex

Poppycock. No one cleans them. They're kept clean by the constant flow of fanboy/ex-customer tears like a mountain spring.

Too close to home, bro

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
You're still missing the point. The point is not whether the CSM codex properly represents X, Y or Z. The point is we're not supposed to care. They're the badguys - that's all you need to know about them. They're the faceless mooks who are only there to give the goodguys a reason to show up and save the day. Who cares why they're armed with autocannons?

That maybe GW's perspective but its dismissive, condescending, and insincere. I don't demand perfection and I don't expect every thing "I want"; I just expect GW to do what they say they're doing and not just pay lip service to their own concepts for the sake of being lazy.
......

Fair enough, but this is where the disconnect happens. You expect GW to do what they say they're doing, and they're not going to do that. I'm not sure its laziness so much as apathy - people give them money while complaining bitterly, so in the end who really cares?