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 ClockworkZion wrote:
My point was that the F-Tier guys make it Nightmare mode. As it it's a Nightmare for the person who is using them because they're getting ROFL-stomped all over the board.

I understand that now; however the strange way of phrasing it suggested you were getting a lot more mileage out of your kSons in your local meta than what the conventional wisdom would say. For example, I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Axe of Blind Fury, even though the CW says you should take something else.

In Skylanders, "Nightmare mode" is something you choose before you pick your guys. The enemies don't know whether you're bringing maxed-out S-tier Drobot or an OOTB F-tier Zap. They're buffed with extra damage and extra health regardless of what you bring.

Normally, when we talk about Hardcore play, the expectation is that both players will bring their "A" game, not that someone will gimp themselves by brining bad stuff.

Hence, my comment that you could bring things down with other conventionally weak units.

If you had written "fielding kSons without the expectation of auto-losing to a competitive list", that would have been a lot clearer.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I thought assuming the worse about releases was the job of Sisters players.

No, hijacking other threads and trying to steal the spotlight is the job of sisters players

Pft, I wasn't making this a Sisters derail but was instead participating in some self-depreciating humor to try and defuse the building tension.

Frankly GW already broke some of the units I had (I own multiple Defilers that are constructed to have an extra set of combat arms) so I've got nothing to really lose on an update at this point. I really just want to see the book come out feeling balanced. It doesn't have to be perfect, or even packed full of Legion rules if the book doesn't feel like you MUST take X to win and can instead build what you like instead.

Sure those other things would be fething fantastic but I'd be pretty happy to just be able to do something as simple as put Thousand Sons on the board without feeling like I'm playing on Hardcore mode.

Ha ha yea I agree with you 100%

I couldn't resist that ribbing though


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Holy crap I should have scrolled down first and witnessed the awesome sauce posting. Holy Shat this thread is great.... TitsMacgee....lol

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My point was that the F-Tier guys make it Nightmare mode. As it it's a Nightmare for the person who is using them because they're getting ROFL-stomped all over the board.

I understand that now; however the strange way of phrasing it suggested you were getting a lot more mileage out of your kSons in your local meta than what the conventional wisdom would say. For example, I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Axe of Blind Fury, even though the CW says you should take something else.

In Skylanders, "Nightmare mode" is something you choose before you pick your guys. The enemies don't know whether you're bringing maxed-out S-tier Drobot or an OOTB F-tier Zap. They're buffed with extra damage and extra health regardless of what you bring.

Normally, when we talk about Hardcore play, the expectation is that both players will bring their "A" game, not that someone will gimp themselves by brining bad stuff.

Hence, my comment that you could bring things down with other conventionally weak units.

If you had written "fielding kSons without the expectation of auto-losing to a competitive list", that would have been a lot clearer.

So it's my fault for referring to a difficulty from shooters instead of Skylanders?

Seriously, you're the only one who seems to not have gotten it so I don't know how I was the one who is wrong in this.

This is magical. A whole new generation of Dakkanauts get to experience the magic of trying to argue with DD. Brings a tear to this old warrior's heart.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For example, I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Axe of Blind Fury, even though the CW says you should take something else.

Wait?,...what?...

did i read it right?, someone told you to take something else then the Axe?...

Whats better then a +2S, AP2 +D6 A weapon?..., the down side ?, The "misfire" is but a minor set back, at worst you'll be hitting on 5's, and you still would have enough Attacks to it something anyway, and its even better if you fight marines with the Hatred, the -1 in WS?, yeah like there is a huge difference in WS 5 or 6 anyway, its not like with BS where you get a free reroll..., and ennemy models with a WS higher then 5 arn't that widespread, just a few (more like one or two) per codex...

The Axe is wonderfull, the Axe is Good, the Axe is Life!!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This is magical. A whole new generation of Dakkanauts get to experience the magic of trying to argue with DD. Brings a tear to this old warrior's heart.

Sadly I've seen worse arguments and logic. But then again I've seen tumblr so that's a given.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
My point was that the F-Tier guys make it Nightmare mode. As it it's a Nightmare for the person who is using them because they're getting ROFL-stomped all over the board.

I understand that now; however the strange way of phrasing it suggested you were getting a lot more mileage out of your kSons in your local meta than what the conventional wisdom would say. For example, I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Axe of Blind Fury, even though the CW says you should take something else.

In Skylanders, "Nightmare mode" is something you choose before you pick your guys. The enemies don't know whether you're bringing maxed-out S-tier Drobot or an OOTB F-tier Zap. They're buffed with extra damage and extra health regardless of what you bring.

Normally, when we talk about Hardcore play, the expectation is that both players will bring their "A" game, not that someone will gimp themselves by brining bad stuff.

Hence, my comment that you could bring things down with other conventionally weak units.

If you had written "fielding kSons without the expectation of auto-losing to a competitive list", that would have been a lot clearer.

So it's my fault for referring to a difficulty from shooters instead of Skylanders?

Seriously, you're the only one who seems to not have gotten it so I don't know how I was the one who is wrong in this.

I didn't say you were wrong. I said I didn't understand what you were originally saying.

I simply used Skylanders as it is the game that I understand best.


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 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For example, I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Axe of Blind Fury, even though the CW says you should take something else.

Wait?,...what?...

did i read it right?, someone told you to take something else then the Axe?...

I have seen models using the Axe dismissed in favor of "top tier" HQs that don't use the Axe.

Maybe the others are better? I dunno. I think the Axe is a great pick, and well-suited to the way I play.

The only relic weapon from C:CSM I'm aware of that saw more play was the Black Mace. Now that a FMC can't assault the same turn it switches to Gliding it's a subpar option when compared to the Axe.

And when it comes to "top tier" things the choices they make don't always follow conventional wisdom, and sometimes go far enough outside of the expected meta to win by just being the match up no one was prepped for. You really have to look more at how the list is organized and what it's trying to do to determine if the Axe would help or hurt it honestly.

So umm where have all the rumors gone? This just sounds like a wish list getting outta control....

Just observing...

That still does not answer who's on your avatar though!

As for the rumors, there's a whole ton of rumors around now...
Harlequins, Skitarii, fantasy getting squatted, new base geometries... so much stuff, it's hard to follow up on it. And sadly, except for the initial input, no follow-up info on any of it.

Haha, you can just reverse image search her.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Haha, you can just reverse image search her.

My computer-fu got me this far: http://crow202.org/fark/asian.html
Scroll down and enjoy....

Not sure the mods will approve. I do though. All hail Slaanesh...

incidentally, what do you think Slaanesh terminators will work like? Some sort of Assault Terms on steroids?

That implies that Slaaneshi Termiantors will still be a thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That implies that Slaaneshi Termiantors will still be a thing.

Too true. We all know GW, they'll halfass it. They'll do nurgle and khorne with this sort of treatment and then they'll tell us they'll eventually get around to Slaanesh and Tzneetch but they won't, at least not before the next redo of the codex. It'll be one of those things they'll "plan to do" but then they'll forget about or change their plan.

 tarnish wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Haha, you can just reverse image search her.

My computer-fu got me this far: http://crow202.org/fark/asian.html
Scroll down and enjoy....

This has got to be a first, a thread about CSM devolving into an argument going noowhere leading to pictures of half naked Asian models. Not that I'm complaining.

As for the topic of the thread, I started playing 40k in later 2007 so i didn't live throught 3rd edition CSM but I've heard stories such as a DP with a powerfist that goes at Initiative and can't be targeted. If this is all true then it seems to me GW is going out of its way to keep CSM rather low on the food chain out of fear they will repeat 3.5. Hell they likely retconned the Helldrake because they thought it was too much and God forbid they start a power creep on chaos making it like 3.5 again. In the process they made CSM rather meh at best. Maybe I give GW too much credit as far as their motives but as they say to road to Hell is paved with good intentions. But most likely the inmates are running the asylum at GW.

While its true that for a long time you could have a DP with Powerfist that would strike at init( because MC's and Walkers ignores de unwieldy rule).

That Untargetable part...i don't see where its coming from...

there was a rule in 3rd/4th that if an Indenpendant Char, was on his own and in 6" of a friendly unit, you couldn't take it for target, because of the Primary Target rule( wich was basicaly, "Shoot the closest thing to you, or do a LD test if you wanna shoot something else").

But none of the MC's of the game where IC's so it din't apply to them( or the rule specified that MC's where'nt affected by this, can't remember).

But yea i see your point.

Also the nerf on the Drake is ridiculous, ok 360* AoF, whas waaaaaayyyyy too much, i fully agree with that, but i mean the thing has a long enough neck to be able to shoot at 180* or even 90*!

Here 45* is waaaaayyyy too short, GW probleme is that they don't have a clue when it comes to balancing, its either OP or useless, no in-between...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
That Untargetable part...i don't see where its coming from...

Siren, probably.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That implies that Slaaneshi Termiantors will still be a thing.

Too true. We all know GW, they'll halfass it. They'll do nurgle and khorne with this sort of treatment and then they'll tell us they'll eventually get around to Slaanesh and Tzneetch but they won't, at least not before the next redo of the codex. It'll be one of those things they'll "plan to do" but then they'll forget about or change their plan.

Well, FW allready has Khorne Terminator conversion kits (or World Eaters I think, but hey, they are pretty well interchangeable at this point). Nurgle would be my assumption to be done first as well. That leaves Slaanesh and Tzeench. I think rubrik terminators would be awesome, but there would be some merit in sonic terminators as well methinks. The Slaaneshi version could either go the way of ini-buffed assault troops or a relentless sonic artillery platform (come on gw, are some extra arm bits for both in the same kits too much to ask for?).
For Tzeench I'd love to see something like TL-Heavy Bolters with inferno bolts...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
While its true that for a long time you could have a DP with Powerfist that would strike at init( because MC's and Walkers ignores de unwieldy rule).

That Untargetable part...i don't see where its coming from...

there was a rule in 3rd/4th that if an Indenpendant Char, was on his own and in 6" of a friendly unit, you couldn't take it for target, because of the Primary Target rule( wich was basicaly, "Shoot the closest thing to you, or do a LD test if you wanna shoot something else").

But none of the MC's of the game where IC's so it din't apply to them( or the rule specified that MC's where'nt affected by this, can't remember).

But yea i see your point.

Also the nerf on the Drake is ridiculous, ok 360* AoF, whas waaaaaayyyyy too much, i fully agree with that, but i mean the thing has a long enough neck to be able to shoot at 180* or even 90*!

Here 45* is waaaaayyyy too short, GW probleme is that they don't have a clue when it comes to balancing, its either OP or useless, no in-between...

The untargetable bit came from a power called "Siren" that was available to Slaaneshi marked psykers. The model that uses that power could not be charged and was untargetable by ranged weapons.

 Filch wrote:

Its so hard to argue with TitsMaggie, when i look at what he wrote and the avatar he chose I cant help but smile and think of the bimbo pointing at her perky tits.

This is perhaps the greatest thing I have ever read on this site. One Internet for you, Mr. Filch.


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 tarnish wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Haha, you can just reverse image search her.

My computer-fu got me this far: http://crow202.org/fark/asian.html
Scroll down and enjoy....

My Slaanesh bless you for that.

people need to stop vilifying 3.5 chaos, they were cool and fluffy, some D bags ran D bag lists but the vast majority of us ran ACTUAL fluff lists because it allowed us to, the current abortion of a codex barely allows us to do even a tiny amount of the things we could do with 3.5.

it wasn't all siren princes and iron warriors, if that codex came out now with all the restrictions and changes to rules from 7th, it would be ok ish not broken in the slightest.

I'd probably be fine with a retread of the 3.5 dex that removed the MPP like Siren and added the new units (like the dinobots) in.

I don't think a 3.5 style IW list would be nearly as bad in 7th as it was in its time.

nobody wrote:
I'd probably be fine with a retread of the 3.5 dex that removed the MPP like Siren and added the new units (like the dinobots) in.

I don't think a 3.5 style IW list would be nearly as bad in 7th as it was in its time.

It wouldn't be as bad because the rules have changed since then both in combat as well as army building. The "d bag" stuff that formosa refers to was unique to them and abused the game rules at the time that allowed for things like rolling into assault from consolidation and no follow up moves. I'm also glad that formosa took a detailed poll of every chaos player to determine that those using powerful and completely legal rules were just a tiny minority and that the "vast majority" of players were just fluff bunnies caught up in the affair. Thank god he isn't just extrapolating his own biased personal experience while at the same time trying to criticize those doing the same even though his anecdotal experience conflicts with my own where over half the chaos players used the rules to full legal and OP effect (and the ones that thought it was unfair simply stopped playing their chaos armies instead due to the backlash). In any case, it only takes one single "d bag" in a group to ruin the perception of a codex in that group.

 Formosa wrote:
people need to stop vilifying 3.5 chaos, they were cool and fluffy, some D bags ran D bag lists but the vast majority of us ran ACTUAL fluff lists because it allowed us to, the current abortion of a codex barely allows us to do even a tiny amount of the things we could do with 3.5.

it wasn't all siren princes and iron warriors, if that codex came out now with all the restrictions and changes to rules from 7th, it would be ok ish not broken in the slightest.

I don't vilify the book as much as point out that more options =/= better balance and won't fix the issues the current book has alone.

 warboss wrote:

nobody wrote:
I'd probably be fine with a retread of the 3.5 dex that removed the MPP like Siren and added the new units (like the dinobots) in.

I don't think a 3.5 style IW list would be nearly as bad in 7th as it was in its time.

It wouldn't be as bad because the rules have changed since then both in combat as well as army building. The "d bag" stuff that formosa refers to was unique to them and abused the game rules at the time that allowed for things like rolling into assault from consolidation and no follow up moves. I'm also glad that formosa took a detailed poll of every chaos player to determine that those using powerful and completely legal rules were just a tiny minority and that the "vast majority" of players were just fluff bunnies caught up in the affair. Thank god he isn't just extrapolating his own biased personal experience while at the same time trying to criticize those doing the same even though his anecdotal experience conflicts with my own where over half the chaos players used the rules to full legal and OP effect (and the ones that thought it was unfair simply stopped playing their chaos armies instead due to the backlash). In any case, it only takes one single "d bag" in a group to ruin the perception of a codex in that group.

As snarky as this was, you did bring up a valid point.

The 3.5 Chaos Codex list functioned on exploiting some obscure core rules that weren't very clear - consolidation into combat being the prime example.

But guess what? 7th edition came and happened!

I wonder....anyone ever decide to play using the 3.5 codex (perhaps straight up copy-pasting Vindicators, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends and Heldrakes across) and see how that fares in the current environment? Perhaps going as far as treating the Minor Psychic Powers as their own distinct lores as well (You can have the core Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch and call the Minor ones something like Pleasure, Decay, Change).

In the current light, this may be spot on. However, the thing is that I think that CSM should have a basic vanilla dex that covers non legion related CSM and bring out legion specific related supplemental dexes and their related warbands. But salt may be required.

If the Khorne book tied to the Bloodthirster release appears I think we will get a good idea of what to expect going forward.
I'd anticipate all cult stuff being in supplements, campaign or warband specific.

The problem is that the BT isn't tied to the so-called Khorne Supp, its tied to the next End of Times book for battle.

I wonder if the BT will see 40k rules too.