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Well yeah there is, in the 40k Demons Codex...

What you really expect new rules/profils for it?

It still will be a 6T 5W model with a crappy 5++ and an AMAZING 6S, even though the guy has an axe...

And it will likely cost the same price as all the lastest GW large monsters, for no upgrades.

Still waiting for GW to have some common sens before that, like giving a Deny the Witch die in your pool for each unit with the mark of khorne, tired of been dependant of my foe Warp Charge roll to have some way to deny him...(got squated by Tzeentch deamons with Nurgle Sorcerors lv3 allies, was not amused to only have 3 dices to DtW while he had 14 dice per turn to throw his powers...)

Maybe GW will grow some stones and give a big beastie in 40K that doesn't have the world "Wraith" in it a Toughness value of 8.

In fact, screw it, give the Bloodthirster 2nd Ed stats:

WS10
BS10
S10
T10
W10
A10
Everything10

(I can't remember if it was T10... probably not... )

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wonder if the BT will see 40k rules too.

I'd say so. It'll probably come out in the standard "Daemons of Chaos" box. I can't imagine they'd put it in an End Times box, as it's not specific to Warhammer. Maybe during its initial release, but it would then revert to a regular box.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
The problem is that the BT isn't tied to the so-called Khorne Supp, its tied to the next End of Times book for battle.

Right, the related rumours have been describing the 40k supplement as a sort of tag along Khorne book to take advantage of the BT release.

My 40k heart has been with CSM since my day 1 of 3.5, but sadly dropped interest in subsequent dull codices. GW is lucky that I still pay attention and lurk to get back in, unlike a lot of people who leave a game.

This rumour(s), is it actually saying anything beyond a Khorne Daemon supplement (purposed to introduce multiple BT variants), with haphazard Berzerker dataslate rules tacked on (yet naturally no update to the models)? Because this thread, while fun, hasn't been much more than us all saying bon mots and reminiscing between bros.

I wouldn't expect GW to publish quality dataslates on any of the legions, or any of the gods save Khorne. I also wouldn't expect a CSM codex with Chapter Tactic equivalents.

Prove me wrong GW.

[I just wish a community edited 3.5 update would be released and generally accepted. Chop the worst offenders, & leave the tourney boys to use their lobotomydex for whatever optimized play CSM can squeeze out.]

IA:13 is brilliant stuff btw. Absolutely recommended.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
In the current light, this may be spot on. However, the thing is that I think that CSM should have a basic vanilla dex that covers non legion related CSM and bring out legion specific related supplemental dexes and their related warbands. But salt may be required.

I want to applaud. Right here.

Because this is how I feel. The problem with the past two incarnations of the Chaos 'dex is the fact that it's been trying to wedge the Legions with the Renegades, leading to a mish mash of mediocre which doesn't really reflect upon either side that well.

We all would love for there to be a base codex, a Legion codex and a Renegade codex...but somehow I think this is way beyond GW's train of thought at times...

I don't think GW is that stupid to erase Cult Marines from existence. They would be there in some form even if its under a different rule. It could be marines with a mark that makes them cult troops in all but name. If someone is going to get that butthurt that plague marines aren't called Plague marines even if they had all the rules that came with it, then they probably are too into the hobby. You could rename Kharn to Captain Sunshine for all I care, just make the rules good and the price reasonable.

 Victory wrote:
Because this thread, while fun, hasn't been much more than us all saying bon mots and reminiscing between bros.

Classy way to describe something including a discussion of cute asian girl pictures, old chap.

As for GWs train of thought, if the whole 6th edition and what we've seen of 7th is any indication, there is no sure way to know how exactly GW will screw us over. Loss of characters? I think anything that does not have a model (and some things that do) have allready been purged from the dexes. Stupid rules? We allready have them. Random tables? There's allready a random table to roll on to determine how many random tables you have to roll on (something about ammount and type of mysterious terrain/objects iirc).
Bloat? Maybe in the SM codex where you can't decide which of the 6 types of Land Raider you want or the IG dex with like 10 different Leman Russ tanks, but a) this is not a kit-heavy bloat in these cases and b) it does not apply to CSM who are allready at their bare necessities. I don't know what to expect of 7th CSM. There's potential there if they decide to open some of their SM-kits up for CSM use (why in Slaanesh's name can't I have Razorbacks?) that it will grow larger, even reaching C:SM proportions if they add Legion tactics or somesuch. On the other hand, they can roll it in with demons, split into 4 parts and tell anyone who wants a non-demonic chaos force to go play Lost and the Damned or something.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
In the current light, this may be spot on. However, the thing is that I think that CSM should have a basic vanilla dex that covers non legion related CSM and bring out legion specific related supplemental dexes and their related warbands. But salt may be required.

I want to applaud. Right here.

Because this is how I feel. The problem with the past two incarnations of the Chaos 'dex is the fact that it's been trying to wedge the Legions with the Renegades, leading to a mish mash of mediocre which doesn't really reflect upon either side that well.

We all would love for there to be a base codex, a Legion codex and a Renegade codex...but somehow I think this is way beyond GW's train of thought at times...

They have been trying to do too much but it's not the volume of things they're trying to do that ruins it. It's the lack of thought they're willing to give to the elements they try to emphasize.

My problem is that even if they left legions out of these books the books don't represent Renegades at all. There are 3 basic types of chaos marines and while Renegades are the largest they are also the type most like loyalists and should in theory be equipped with more of the loyalist equipment. They're more pirates than the warp twisted legionaries that camp the eye of terror. It doesn't make sense that they have this same gambit of warp twisted chaos units equipped with ancient tech of abominable history. Consider how the first two codices way back when allowed Chaos to take loyalist units at a premium to allow the player to represent the renegade factions. I'm not saying they go back to that, just that its an element that's been left out despite the greater emphasis on that type of Chaos marine. The perfect example of this lack of thought are the Renegades described as specializing in drop pod assaults as a holdover from their loyalist days.

In my case, my renegade CSM can take Plasma Cannon at Lascannon prices, but no Autocannon. Ohh... broken!

 aka_mythos wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
In the current light, this may be spot on. However, the thing is that I think that CSM should have a basic vanilla dex that covers non legion related CSM and bring out legion specific related supplemental dexes and their related warbands. But salt may be required.

I want to applaud. Right here.

Because this is how I feel. The problem with the past two incarnations of the Chaos 'dex is the fact that it's been trying to wedge the Legions with the Renegades, leading to a mish mash of mediocre which doesn't really reflect upon either side that well.

We all would love for there to be a base codex, a Legion codex and a Renegade codex...but somehow I think this is way beyond GW's train of thought at times...

They have been trying to do too much but it's not the volume of things they're trying to do that ruins it. It's the lack of thought they're willing to give to the elements they try to emphasize.

My problem is that even if they left legions out of these books the books don't represent Renegades at all. There are 3 basic types of chaos marines and while Renegades are the largest they are also the type most like loyalists and should in theory be equipped with more of the loyalist equipment. They're more pirates than the warp twisted legionaries that camp the eye of terror. It doesn't make sense that they have this same gambit of warp twisted chaos units equipped with ancient tech of abominable history. Consider how the first two codices way back when allowed Chaos to take loyalist units at a premium to allow the player to represent the renegade factions. I'm not saying they go back to that, just that its an element that's been left out despite the greater emphasis on that type of Chaos marine. The perfect example of this lack of thought are the Renegades described as specializing in drop pod assaults as a holdover from their loyalist days.

To be fair, this is a point too. Renegades should...you know...have more Imperial elements to them in a sense. I'm pretty sure every 'renegade' chapter didn't have a stockpile of Reaper Autocannons just in case. I'm also pretty certain that they don't spontaneously forget how to use Land Speeders, Drop Pods, Multimeltas etc.

Really, we have...what...3 ideal books?

The generic blah.
Renegades - with added Imperial Equipment but less of the daemon machines and 'chaos' factor.
Legions - Veteran specialists for everyone!

I mean, really, we want the following...

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Renegades
Lost and the Damned
Chaos Legions
Book of Nurgle
Book of Khorne
Book of Slaanesh
Book of Tzeentch

Which seems a lot I know...wait...let's step back here.

Space Marines
Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Grey Knights
Astra Militarum

Bonus supplement lists!

Sentinels of Terra
Clan Raukan
Legion of the Damned

.....yeah. Right. Ok, so perhaps not too much to ask for.

Meh, we'll have to see though. I still feel like CSM are basically being crapped on for the events of 3.5. We still bear the sins of Haines. We still bear the shame of Siren.

But yeah, back on topic - I highly doubt we're 'losing' Cult troops. If what someone else has suggested - a return to the 3.5 style of X Mark makes this Chaos Marine into a Blah then huzzah!

Now let's hope they do a Greater and Lesser Mark system...

That'd be nice...

Lesser Mark being the stat increase etc.
Greater Mark being the stat increase and special rules to turn X into a Cult version of it.

So you can have your Nurgle Dedicated part timers and your true Nurglite hardcore elites....

I like how Sisters got left out of the Imperium list.

Seriously though, unless every faction is going to get something like 10 different books we don't need more books. We need better books.

By which you mean more expensive right? Maybe with harder backs? Bigger font?
How about a Tzeentch book whose contents is always changing? A Khorne book with razor sharp pages? A Slannesh book with it's own safe word? A Nurgle book that everyone in the studio sneezed on?
I can think of so many ways to improve books without touching those silly 'rules'.

Realistically though, we're looking at supplements. Codex supplements and Campaign supplements. I like the trend honestly, I'm just wondering if/how it changes the overall edition cycle.

On one hand, it sounds just completely ridiculous - CSM without Cult Marines is about the same as Blood Angels without Death Company, or Orks without Lootas.
But on the other hand... GW is just screwing as much as they can for the last two years - things like Eldar 6th ed release (aka Half of Dire Avengers for the same price!), dropping down almost every battleforce and somewhat profitable pack and giving us in some cases VERY pricey bundles, new codex releases being mostly lettdowns, forcing us to purchase damn expensive Titans or another Monstrouses... Hey, why not take one step further and start cutting content from Rulebooks and sell them in WD's and Supplements?


But, again, I'd rather be optimistic and treat those as fraud - because this would be just a step too far.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In my case, my renegade CSM can take Plasma Cannon at Lascannon prices, but no Autocannon. Ohh... broken!

No one is saying that.

Go away.

Veskern wrote:
On one hand, it sounds just completely ridiculous - CSM without Cult Marines is about the same as Blood Angels without Death Company....

Unfortunately GW sees it as Ultramarines without Death Company. "You guys don't need this; you're playing this army all wrong"

Veskern wrote:
On one hand, it sounds just completely ridiculous - CSM without Cult Marines is about the same as Blood Angels without Death Company, or Orks without Lootas.
But on the other hand... GW is just screwing as much as they can for the last two years - things like Eldar 6th ed release (aka Half of Dire Avengers for the same price!), dropping down almost every battleforce and somewhat profitable pack and giving us in some cases VERY pricey bundles, new codex releases being mostly lettdowns, forcing us to purchase damn expensive Titans or another Monstrouses... Hey, why not take one step further and start cutting content from Rulebooks and sell them in WD's and Supplements?


But, again, I'd rather be optimistic and treat those as fraud - because this would be just a step too far.

Which codex releases forced us to purchase titans and monstrous creatures? All the recent boxed armies have been decent deals, the 'web bundles' have only ever been provided for that one guy somewhere who likes to buy at full retail but only has web access for 30 seconds every month.

You could also see it as CSM without Cult Marines is the same as a Space Marine codex without Blood Angels.

Which codex releases forced us to purchase titans and monstrous creatures? All the recent boxed armies have been decent deals, the 'web bundles' have only ever been provided for that one guy somewhere who likes to buy at full retail but only has web access for 30 seconds every month.

You could also see it as CSM without Cult Marines is the same as a Space Marine codex without Blood Angels.

Uhm - new Orks with mandatory Naut, which price is little lower than Apo's Stompa? Space Marines which, in Tournaments, are rather expected to work with Imperial Knight? Or Wraithknight in Eldars which is ruling every table ?

Decent deals - holy hell, saying that, for example, recent Adaptus Astartes Strikeforce (NOT previous SM Strikeforce!) is decent deal - *BLAM!* HERESY!
But on serious - as I said before, new Strikeforces/deals/packages are just, mostly, WEAK (maybe except Dark Eldar one, which is just good, same as Astra Militarium one) - Adeptus Astartes, Blood Angels (which is just big weirdo), or Orks - it is truly mixed bag, as compared to old, and unavailable sets like NEMESIS VANGUARD? Like even old CSM Attack Force?

You got a point here, because CSM stripped off from Cult Marines would bring this codex A LOT closer to generic Space Marines - but with spikes and Doggie-walkers. And it is not the same, because on one hand, GW would try to make tricks like that, smuggling rules to WD and making it mandatory purchase even for those who got little care about this paper, and, on the other, ignoring HUGE fanbases, and, for example, cutting Black Templars into Generic SM, making them not only lose their unique character and some units, but also throwing them into oblivion of these non-competetive army lists.

I wouldn't mind, of course (especially as ex-CSM player) some CULT SUPPLEMENTS containing Detachements and some advanced rules exclusive only for those who vow one Chaos God, but if it would be done WITHOUT cutting CONTENT from the Core Codex, which is 100% dickish and cash-grabbing move - am I right ?

I know it's not the crux of your point, but I don't think anybody considers Gork/Morkanaughts mandatory for Orks...or even desirable.

Anyway. There's no reason that you couldn't have a diverse Chaos Marine book, even with Marks and then still have cult/legion supplements.
If anything is supplement based they are going to be accused of cash grabbing. I don't care how it's parsed out, I just want it to be interesting to build/play.

 plastictrees wrote:
By which you mean more expensive right? Maybe with harder backs? Bigger font?
How about a Tzeentch book whose contents is always changing? A Khorne book with razor sharp pages? A Slannesh book with it's own safe word? A Nurgle book that everyone in the studio sneezed on?
I can think of so many ways to improve books without touching those silly 'rules'.

Realistically though, we're looking at supplements. Codex supplements and Campaign supplements. I like the trend honestly, I'm just wondering if/how it changes the overall edition cycle.

Actually when I was speaking about needing better books I was talking rules. But I think you knew that and were just being insufferable for the lulz.

 plastictrees wrote:

Anyway. There's no reason that you couldn't have a diverse Chaos Marine book, even with Marks and then still have cult/legion supplements.
If anything is supplement based they are going to be accused of cash grabbing. I don't care how it's parsed out, I just want it to be interesting to build/play.

I think part of GW's issue with a diverse codex is that when you look at how they sell the game now, they want you to pay for each little different experience. A diverse army allows a player a range of gaming experience without necessarily spending money and at this point they'd rather coax people into buying whole new armies than just a new unit or two. They've killed about a quarter of their sales volume over the last 3 years with price hikes, so each remaining customer has to buy 25% more stuff for them to do as well as they were three years ago. That difference just about means a whole new army every two years, beyond what people are already spending.When they subdivide books a player now has two half armies and then it doesn't take as much to coax them into "completing" one and then the other. The real backfire is hen people decide its too much to buy to keep up and instead drop out of the hobby.

Wraithknights are good, but they are by no means mandatory. The same goes for RIptides. Tau and Eldar can do just fine without them. Literally nothing forces you to buy an Imperial Knight and no army is "expected" to have one. Orkanauts kind of suck and Stompas are better, around the same price, and legal outside of Apocalypse, but still not a very common sight.

GW releasing big models means people can get big models if they want big models. That is all. The only thing your point might apply to would be the Tyrannocyte.

Supplements that are actually worthwhile are what we need. The concept of Supplements is great, but the execution so far has been pretty terrible, especially for Chaos. The idea of having expansion packs to diversify a Codex in distinct ways is good, and is the perfect formula for 40k's myriad sub-factions. There should be a Codex: Space Marines and a Supplement: Blood Angels and so on. The same format could be wonderful for Chaos, but it's not what we'll get.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:

Anyway. There's no reason that you couldn't have a diverse Chaos Marine book, even with Marks and then still have cult/legion supplements.
If anything is supplement based they are going to be accused of cash grabbing. I don't care how it's parsed out, I just want it to be interesting to build/play.

I think part of GW's issue with a diverse codex is that when you look at how they sell the game now, they want you to pay for each little different experience. A diverse army allows a player a range of gaming experience without necessarily spending money and at this point they'd rather coax people into buying whole new armies than just a new unit or two. They've killed about a quarter of their sales volume over the last 3 years with price hikes, so each remaining customer has to buy 25% more stuff for them to do as well as they were three years ago. That difference just about means a whole new army every two years, beyond what people are already spending.When they subdivide books a player now has two half armies and then it doesn't take as much to coax them into "completing" one and then the other. The real backfire is hen people decide its too much to buy to keep up and instead drop out of the hobby.

I don't see the evidence for what you're describing, unless by "pay for each little experience" you just mean the cost of the book(s)?
When has the "two half armies" thing occured?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 plastictrees wrote:
By which you mean more expensive right? Maybe with harder backs? Bigger font?
How about a Tzeentch book whose contents is always changing? A Khorne book with razor sharp pages? A Slannesh book with it's own safe word? A Nurgle book that everyone in the studio sneezed on?
I can think of so many ways to improve books without touching those silly 'rules'.

Realistically though, we're looking at supplements. Codex supplements and Campaign supplements. I like the trend honestly, I'm just wondering if/how it changes the overall edition cycle.

Actually when I was speaking about needing better books I was talking rules. But I think you knew that and were just being insufferable for the lulz.

I was going for adorable rapscallion, I can work with insufferable though.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
There should be a Codex: Space Marines and a Supplement: Blood Angels and so on.

I certainly hope GW does this in 7E.

Um, it is 7th Ed...
and BA already have a 7th Ed codex...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Um, it is 7th Ed...
and BA already have a 7th Ed codex...

C.S. Goto must be writing DD's posts again.

:eyeroll:

Obviously, the hope is that all other SM-family forces move to supplements rather than standalone Codices.

The hope? Are you trying to speak for all gamers again DD? You need to stop doing that.

For the benefit of those few posters who might wonder why I'm not responding to HMBC's provocations, he is being ignored.

That is all, please carry on.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the benefit of those few posters who might wonder why I'm not responding to HMBC's provocations, he is being ignored.

That is all, please carry on.

I'm pretty sure nobody actually cared. If they did they'd said something by now.

EDIT: And if you know his posts are directed at you then you're doing a poor job of ignoring him since you know the content. So yeah.

Not really - I went off Dakka for a couple years, and watched to see how some people behave when I came back recently. No matter.