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I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Which is exactly what its NOT supoposed to be - its a transport FFS

So it does this every turn - and is far more effective against enemy DT's - as you well know.

sorry, I'm an engineer and 'replicate' means to make an exact copy of something within a given tolerance and 'same amount of same shots' suggests an identical set of shots is to be produced. which is why i say they are the same. the word 'replicate' adds the inference that there might be some degree of accepted difference, but I've got to be a stickler and note that 40k/30k rules only deal in polynomials.

Because it isn't a fething MBT, it's a APC.

Theres also the next argument , talking about their survive ability versus their ability to kill 1.8 marines per turn.

A Squad of 10 Marines with Krak Grenades charge a Wave Serpent
-6.6 Grenades hit on a 3+
-3.3 Glancing/Penetrating results on a 4+
-Wave Serpent Dead.

Charging 10 Krak Grenade marines into a tank is hard?

A Sqaud of 5 Sternguard with Combi Meltas Drop Pod down into Melta Range behind the serpent
-3.3 Shots Hit
-Your Can get 100% of those as results so, Assuming the Eldar Player Jinks
-1.65 Penetrating with +2 modifier
-Also more than a half chance to blow up the vehicle with 5 melta guns. This is pretty standard with any AV Tank in the whole game.


The Wave Serpents Survivability isnt better than anything else in the game. Imperium Gets Smoke, which is the same as Jink. Stormraven gets Ceramite Plating which is better. We dont even have access to an AV13+ Vehicle. Tons of tanks out there have Jink not to mention all fliers and the Eldar's codex inability to gain air superiority along with 0 Tanks with the SkyFire Special Rule.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Wave Serpents are fine....you hear complaints of low caliber players. You can assault them and kill them with almost anything. People who complain are bad and have 1850 lists with like two anti tank guns.

Centurions have split fire...re rollable...grav cannons las cannons or missile launchers....and powerfists in close combat....a 2+ save and invul save. If you want to complain complain about that.

Necrons also have very comperable shooting with AV13...

Its not an issue people are just bad at this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
Either remove its ability to shoot, or shooting it removes the shield.

I'd be behind either of those.

Thats currently how it works rofl

Cents don't have invulnerables, they have to buy split fire, grav, lascannons, they do not come stock with powerfists nor tank hunter. If you are going to make claims it helps when they are true if you want to be taken seriosuly. They also cost 60 ponts a model base, so they are literally 2 models per serpent. I mean seriously, where did you pull this from?

Also your signature isn't very... helpful to your cause

28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.

Hey guys I found morgoths cousin. Also I'm very surprised morgoths isn't here yet.

I really like the idea of just giving it a 5+ invulnerable save like the dark eldar one.

SirDonlad wrote:
sorry, I'm an engineer and 'replicate' means to make an exact copy of something within a given tolerance and 'same amount of same shots' suggests an identical set of shots is to be produced. which is why i say they are the same. the word 'replicate' adds the inference that there might be some degree of accepted difference, but I've got to be a stickler and note that 40k/30k rules only deal in polynomials.

I disagree here man,

If a company comes to you and says "I need you to replicate the results" you can have a different machine with different components and mechanisms, but as long as it Performs the same the results are replicated.

My Argument is not that other armies have a 120 point platform that does the exact same thing, my point is that other armies for the same point value can do similar results at killing tanks or infantry. The Wave Serpent per point is not any more efficient than anything in any other Codex.

 Smitty0305 wrote:

SirDonlad wrote:
sorry, I'm an engineer and 'replicate' means to make an exact copy of something within a given tolerance and 'same amount of same shots' suggests an identical set of shots is to be produced. which is why i say they are the same. the word 'replicate' adds the inference that there might be some degree of accepted difference, but I've got to be a stickler and note that 40k/30k rules only deal in polynomials.

I disagree here man,

If a company comes to you and says "I need you to replicate the results" you can have a different machine with different components and mechanisms, but as long as it Performs the same the results are replicated.

My Argument is not that other armies have a 120 point platform that does the exact same thing, my point is that other armies for the same point value can do similar results at killing tanks or infantry. The Wave Serpent per point is not any more efficient than anything in any other Codex.

Hmmm yes, ladies and gentlemen we have someone who is either stoned/drunk/something I'm allowed to say on this forum. Now please produce this example, now.

 Mr Morden wrote:

I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Which is exactly what its NOT supoposed to be - its a transport FFS

So it does this every turn - and is far more effective against enemy DT's - as you well know.

Razorbacks with Assault Cannons / or LasPlas compared to the Eldar on a point value is very close.

Raiders/Venoms are cheaper, comparing venom wound output is almost the same.

They also suffer from 2 less AV, far less range, no ignore cover... the list goes on. You are grasping knowingly at points that can be countered, so we're gonna have to conclude you're just being deliberately obtuse - I hope.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

SirDonlad wrote:
sorry, I'm an engineer and 'replicate' means to make an exact copy of something within a given tolerance and 'same amount of same shots' suggests an identical set of shots is to be produced. which is why i say they are the same. the word 'replicate' adds the inference that there might be some degree of accepted difference, but I've got to be a stickler and note that 40k/30k rules only deal in polynomials.

I disagree here man,

If a company comes to you and says "I need you to replicate the results" you can have a different machine with different components and mechanisms, but as long as it Performs the same the results are replicated.

My Argument is not that other armies have a 120 point platform that does the exact same thing, my point is that other armies for the same point value can do similar results at killing tanks or infantry. The Wave Serpent per point is not any more efficient than anything in any other Codex.

Hmmm yes, ladies and gentlemen we have someone who is either stoned/drunk/something I'm allowed to say on this forum. Now please produce this example, now.

Venom has 8 Shots
-5.28 Hit
-2.64 Wound
-0.871 Marines are Dead

A Wave Serpent with a scatter costs 120
A Venom with Double Splinter Costs 65 Points

A Venom is doing 0.13 Wounds Per Point
A Wave Serpent is doing 0.15 Woulds Per Point

A Venom is more effective at killing Monstrous Creatures. A squad of 2 Venoms has 4 hullpoints instead of 3. How is this overpowered?

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Lets take a minute and actually look at the Math

Wave Serpent
-Scatter Laser, 4 TL BS4 Str6 Shots.
-Shield, D6+1 Str7 Shots, Pinning, Ignore Cover
-Shuriken Cannon (24" Range which is in enemy assault range, If you move 12 it snap fires. Most times you need to move to capture maelstroms and move from threats. Alot of Eldar players do not bring this).

A scatter laser has a 66.66% Chance to hit, so you have 2.64 Shots hit. 0.66*1.46 adds around 0.891 more shots. So your going to have around 3.51 of your scatter laser shots hitting.

A Serpent Shield will average 3.5 shots per game. They will be twin linked so you will get 2.31+0.785 = 3.09 Shots.

So an average wave serpent is going to get 3.51+3.09 hits per player turn or 6.6 hits per player turn. Of this you need a 2+ to would most infantry, so your going to get 6.6 * 0.833 or 5.478 wounds. Of the those a space marine is going to save 66% of them so 1.8 Space Marine a turn will die. If you have 5 of these your going to on average kill 9 Space Marines a turn.....so your taking out around 135 Points with an Investment of 600 points.

Wave Serpent
-Total of 6.59 Shots hitting per game, causing 5.478 wounds on MEQ T4, or killing around 1.8 Marines per Turn.

I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Your math is a bit off.
Scatter Lasers will generate 3.556 hits. Shield will average 4.5 shots per turn, for another 4 hits. Of this you need (against SM no difference between the two), 2+ to Wound, so 7.556 hits becomes 6.297 Wounds. Of these a SM will save 66% of them so 2.0989 Marines dead per turn. Overpowered for a MBT? No. However the Serpent is not a Main Battle Tank. It is a transport.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Lets take a minute and actually look at the Math

Wave Serpent
-Scatter Laser, 4 TL BS4 Str6 Shots.
-Shield, D6+1 Str7 Shots, Pinning, Ignore Cover
-Shuriken Cannon (24" Range which is in enemy assault range, If you move 12 it snap fires. Most times you need to move to capture maelstroms and move from threats. Alot of Eldar players do not bring this).

A scatter laser has a 66.66% Chance to hit, so you have 2.64 Shots hit. 0.66*1.46 adds around 0.891 more shots. So your going to have around 3.51 of your scatter laser shots hitting.

A Serpent Shield will average 3.5 shots per game. They will be twin linked so you will get 2.31+0.785 = 3.09 Shots.

So an average wave serpent is going to get 3.51+3.09 hits per player turn or 6.6 hits per player turn. Of this you need a 2+ to would most infantry, so your going to get 6.6 * 0.833 or 5.478 wounds. Of the those a space marine is going to save 66% of them so 1.8 Space Marine a turn will die. If you have 5 of these your going to on average kill 9 Space Marines a turn.....so your taking out around 135 Points with an Investment of 600 points.

Wave Serpent
-Total of 6.59 Shots hitting per game, causing 5.478 wounds on MEQ T4, or killing around 1.8 Marines per Turn.

I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Your math is a bit off.
Scatter Lasers will generate 3.556 hits. Shield will average 4.5 shots per turn, for another 4 hits. Of this you need (against SM no difference between the two), 2+ to Wound, so 7.556 hits becomes 6.297 Wounds. Of these a SM will save 66% of them so 2.0989 Marines dead per turn. Overpowered for a MBT? No. However the Serpent is not a Main Battle Tank. It is a transport.

Its a 120 point model that Mathematically on Average can kill around 2 Space Marines a turn....That isnt Overpowered.

I compared it to the effectiveness of a Venom which is a dedicated Transport as well, There so close it isnt funny.

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Lets take a minute and actually look at the Math

Wave Serpent
-Scatter Laser, 4 TL BS4 Str6 Shots.
-Shield, D6+1 Str7 Shots, Pinning, Ignore Cover
-Shuriken Cannon (24" Range which is in enemy assault range, If you move 12 it snap fires. Most times you need to move to capture maelstroms and move from threats. Alot of Eldar players do not bring this).

A scatter laser has a 66.66% Chance to hit, so you have 2.64 Shots hit. 0.66*1.46 adds around 0.891 more shots. So your going to have around 3.51 of your scatter laser shots hitting.

A Serpent Shield will average 3.5 shots per game. They will be twin linked so you will get 2.31+0.785 = 3.09 Shots.

So an average wave serpent is going to get 3.51+3.09 hits per player turn or 6.6 hits per player turn. Of this you need a 2+ to would most infantry, so your going to get 6.6 * 0.833 or 5.478 wounds. Of the those a space marine is going to save 66% of them so 1.8 Space Marine a turn will die. If you have 5 of these your going to on average kill 9 Space Marines a turn.....so your taking out around 135 Points with an Investment of 600 points.

Wave Serpent
-Total of 6.59 Shots hitting per game, causing 5.478 wounds on MEQ T4, or killing around 1.8 Marines per Turn.

I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Your math is a bit off.
Scatter Lasers will generate 3.556 hits. Shield will average 4.5 shots per turn, for another 4 hits. Of this you need (against SM no difference between the two), 2+ to Wound, so 7.556 hits becomes 6.297 Wounds. Of these a SM will save 66% of them so 2.0989 Marines dead per turn. Overpowered for a MBT? No. However the Serpent is not a Main Battle Tank. It is a transport.

Its a 120 point model that Mathematically on Average can kill around 2 Space Marines a turn....That isnt Overpowered.

I compared it to the effectiveness of a Venom which is a dedicated Transport as well, There so close it isnt funny.

Oh hey you misspelled they're.

Why are you just using it to kill marines...?

Why don't you see how effective it is at taking out enemy transports, for example?

Feel free to keep comparing it to the venom in this regard.

Hell, pit a WS against 2 venom and see which comes out on top.

 vipoid wrote:
Why are you just using it to kill marines...?

Why don't you see how effective it is at taking out enemy transports, for example?

Feel free to keep comparing it to the venom in this regard.

Hell, pit a WS against 2 venom and see which comes out on top.

Or I could compare a Wave Serpents / Ravagers effectiveness against killing a land raider. A ravager is 125 points with 3 dark lances, a Wave Serpent is 120.

The Wave Serpent cant even hurt the Land Raider lol.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
my point is that other armies for the same point value can do similar results at killing tanks or infantry.

i think that a large portion of the rage is just about how effectively it does both and more.

i've had one of these take down my flyers, i've had units of thallax (T5 W3) lose three guys in a single round of shooting from one and then run away. - that isn't common.
i've even had one go round the side of my mechanicum LR and blow it up.
all these happened in one round of shooting from one!

we can all take units which can do these roles but i'm not aware of another unit which can do all of the roles anywhere near as well. it's got this perfect balance of weapon strengths and rules to be able to cover just about any situation and survive - my mate with eldar would argue that his 'superior race' will have perfected their vehicles over the millennia so 'of course it should be able to do it all' (potentially one of the few times that the fluff matches the rules).

however it is quite aggravating that the points cost of the units we have to deal with them are quite high. (apart from legion sicarian battletank of course)
the closest unit i have to it is the imperial avenger strike fighter which starts at 150pts and ends up at about 180pts with 2 single lascannon an avenger bolt cannon (S6 AP3 heavy 7) with tank hunters at BS3 (cause the serp is a skimmer). - sounds good until you start doing dice rolls. the WS survives 9/10 times and then blows it up in return.

i see it and the wraithknight as matt ward's last hurrah before leaving - i wouldn't have bet that his d#*kprints look like spirit stones but we can all make mistakes..

um, on your replicated results argument - similarly, if the company instead asks - "i need you to produce a set of data from a machine which matches this data from a different machine in both quantity and outcome" it still means the same thing.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Every army in the game can replicate 7 mid strength shots with multiple units. People who complain about serpents are bad low tier players who play static bad army lists.

Stop being bad....open ur codex....and learn to play your army.

The biggest weakness is close combat. Any squad with anything can kill them in close combat. If you force them to move 12+ they stop shooting and problem solved.

Troll detected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smitty0305 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Why are you just using it to kill marines...?

Why don't you see how effective it is at taking out enemy transports, for example?

Feel free to keep comparing it to the venom in this regard.

Hell, pit a WS against 2 venom and see which comes out on top.

Or I could compare a Wave Serpents / Ravagers effectiveness against killing a land raider. A ravager is 125 points with 3 dark lances, a Wave Serpent is 120.

The Wave Serpent cant even hurt the Land Raider lol.

Too bad land raiders are terrible.

I posted my thoughts on the topic here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_Overpowered_is_the_Wave_Serpent

Here is a metaphor for what you are doing

1 frag grenade explodes next to a soldier, he is probably dead.
1 c4 goes off next to a soldier he is definitely dead.

What you are saying is that obviously they are equal in all respects, and since the grenade is cheaper is obviously the superior weapon is all situations.

/metaphor

If you give me your address I can mail some reading material to you that should help you come to realize your fallacies http://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Logic-Puzzles-Muriel-Mandell/dp/080694756X

 Quickjager wrote:
Here is a metaphor for what you are doing

1 frag grenade explodes next to a soldier, he is probably dead.
1 c4 goes off next to a soldier he is definitely dead.

What you are saying is that obviously they are equal in all respects, and since the grenade is cheaper is obviously the superior weapon is all situations.

/metaphor

If you give me your address I can mail some reading material to you that should help you come to realize your fallacies http://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Logic-Puzzles-Muriel-Mandell/dp/080694756X

Send me the Hardback One, I dont like paperback.

Mmmmm, you don't mind used? The new one is going for about five hundred currently.

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Lets take a minute and actually look at the Math

Wave Serpent
-Scatter Laser, 4 TL BS4 Str6 Shots.
-Shield, D6+1 Str7 Shots, Pinning, Ignore Cover
-Shuriken Cannon (24" Range which is in enemy assault range, If you move 12 it snap fires. Most times you need to move to capture maelstroms and move from threats. Alot of Eldar players do not bring this).

A scatter laser has a 66.66% Chance to hit, so you have 2.64 Shots hit. 0.66*1.46 adds around 0.891 more shots. So your going to have around 3.51 of your scatter laser shots hitting.

A Serpent Shield will average 3.5 shots per game. They will be twin linked so you will get 2.31+0.785 = 3.09 Shots.

So an average wave serpent is going to get 3.51+3.09 hits per player turn or 6.6 hits per player turn. Of this you need a 2+ to would most infantry, so your going to get 6.6 * 0.833 or 5.478 wounds. Of the those a space marine is going to save 66% of them so 1.8 Space Marine a turn will die. If you have 5 of these your going to on average kill 9 Space Marines a turn.....so your taking out around 135 Points with an Investment of 600 points.

Wave Serpent
-Total of 6.59 Shots hitting per game, causing 5.478 wounds on MEQ T4, or killing around 1.8 Marines per Turn.

I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Couple things.

First, math is off.

Your average number of hits from the Scaterlaser should be as follows.

4 shots X (2x3)=2.67 before twin linked

Rerolls ((1/3)*(4 shots X (2x3)))=0.888

Total average number of hits=2.667+0.888=3.556

Now we get the shield

The average here should be 4.5, not 3.5 (average on a D6 is 3.5, D6+1 is 4.5)

So we do the same calculation as above


4.5 shots X (2x3)=3 before twin linked

Rerolls ((1/3)*(4.5 shots X (2x3)))=1

Total average number of hits=3+1=4 average hits


So we've got a total of 7.55 average hits. Against T4 3+sv infantry (Marines) we get 2.1 dead per turn.

For reference, lets take an *ACTUAL* battle tank, a Leman Russ Exterminator with 3 heavy bolters costing 150pts against the same unit

4 autocannon shots *(1/2)=2 hits

Twin Linked rerolls

((1/2)*4 autocannon shots *(1/2))=1 hit

Total Autocannon hits=3

Then we add the 3 heavy bolters

9*(1/2)=4.5 hits

On average, against that same T4 3+sv infantry unit=1.8333

So a relatively barebones 120pt Wave Serpent dedicated transport is putting out more hurt on a T4 3+sv unit than a 150pt Leman Russ Exterminator.

This is also discounting any Shuriken Catapults or Shuriken Cannons the Wave Serpent may also have.

If we add in a Shuriken Cannon, we get 3.28 average dead marines, an 80%% increase over that Leman Russ Exterminator, for fewer points.





Second, it's NOT a Main Battle Tank, it's *not* a Fire Prism, it's a transport.

(EDIT: lol messed up my math too and understated the Serpent first go around!)

I'm sorry, I know I'm rehashing an old point here, but if a Venom is point-for-point equivalent to a Wave Serpent...when killing Marines...and that means they're equivalent in spite of the Wave Serpent's superior durability, transport capacity, range, and ability to kill anything else...

Does that mean I should be paying about twenty points per Terminator because he's only about half again as good as a Tactical Marine at killing Space Marines?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Smitty0305 wrote:
Lets take a minute and actually look at the Math

Wave Serpent
-Scatter Laser, 4 TL BS4 Str6 Shots.
-Shield, D6+1 Str7 Shots, Pinning, Ignore Cover
-Shuriken Cannon (24" Range which is in enemy assault range, If you move 12 it snap fires. Most times you need to move to capture maelstroms and move from threats. Alot of Eldar players do not bring this).

A scatter laser has a 66.66% Chance to hit, so you have 2.64 Shots hit. 0.66*1.46 adds around 0.891 more shots. So your going to have around 3.51 of your scatter laser shots hitting.

A Serpent Shield will average 3.5 shots per game. They will be twin linked so you will get 2.31+0.785 = 3.09 Shots.

So an average wave serpent is going to get 3.51+3.09 hits per player turn or 6.6 hits per player turn. Of this you need a 2+ to would most infantry, so your going to get 6.6 * 0.833 or 5.478 wounds. Of the those a space marine is going to save 66% of them so 1.8 Space Marine a turn will die. If you have 5 of these your going to on average kill 9 Space Marines a turn.....so your taking out around 135 Points with an Investment of 600 points.

Wave Serpent
-Total of 6.59 Shots hitting per game, causing 5.478 wounds on MEQ T4, or killing around 1.8 Marines per Turn.

I personally dont see how thats overpowered for a main battle tank.

Couple things.

First, math is off.

Your average number of hits from the Scaterlaser should be as follows.

4 shots X (2x3)=2.67 before twin linked

Rerolls ((1/3)*(4 shots X (2x3)))=0.888

Total average number of hits=2.667+0.888=3.556

Now we get the shield

The average here should be 4.5, not 3.5 (average on a D6 is 3.5, D6+1 is 4.5)

So we do the same calculation as above


4.5 shots X (2x3)=3 before twin linked

Rerolls ((1/3)*(4.5 shots X (2x3)))=1

Total average number of hits=3+1=4 average hits


So we've got a total of 7.55 average hits. Against T4 3+sv infantry (Marines) we get 2.1 dead per turn.

For reference, lets take an *ACTUAL* battle tank, a Leman Russ Exterminator with 3 heavy bolters costing 150pts against the same unit

4 autocannon shots *(1/2)=2 hits

Twin Linked rerolls

((1/2)*4 autocannon shots *(1/2))=1 hit

Total Autocannon hits=3

Then we add the 3 heavy bolters

9*(1/2)=4.5 hits

On average, against that same T4 3+sv infantry unit=1.8333

So a relatively barebones 120pt Wave Serpent dedicated transport is putting out more hurt on a T4 3+sv unit than a 150pt Leman Russ Exterminator.

This is also discounting any Shuriken Catapults or Shuriken Cannons the Wave Serpent may also have.

If we add in a Shuriken Cannon, we get 3.28 average dead marines, an 80%% increase over that Leman Russ Exterminator, for fewer points.





Second, it's NOT a Main Battle Tank, it's *not* a Fire Prism, it's a transport.

(EDIT: lol messed up my math too and understated the Serpent first go around!)

Interesting point that the Wave Serpent is about 14% more effective at killing Infantry than that unit.

The Leman Russ gets armor 13 which is notable. Im not an Expert on Imperial Guard, but I think you can bring pask to make them more effective. I know you can also do orders from HQ's which make the tank more effective. You didnt take any tertiary support into account when looking at this.

I also think that the Leman Russ Exterminator is one of the worse variants, and generally one of the worse things in the IG Codex. There other things in the IG Codex that would be much better to compare. I would probably more want to see a comparison against an IG Heavy Weapon Autocannon team with Orders that Twink Link the Weapons.

Is one of the better things in the Eldar Codex 14% better than one of the below average things in the IG codex? Sure. Is that game breaking? In my opinion no.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm sorry, I know I'm rehashing an old point here, but if a Venom is point-for-point equivalent to a Wave Serpent...when killing Marines...and that means they're equivalent in spite of the Wave Serpent's superior durability, transport capacity, range, and ability to kill anything else...

Does that mean I should be paying about twenty points per Terminator because he's only about half again as good as a Tactical Marine at killing Space Marines?

Again, you need to compare all of those statistics point by point.

The Dark Eldar Transport can have two of them for every serpent. Their Transport Size is almost an advantage because having Two squads of 5 Trueborn is much better than 1 Squad of 10.

The Range I think is comperable, as a Scatter Laser's range is 36" so shooting the Wave Serpent out of 36" range greatly reduces its ability to do damage.

As far as survivability the Wave Serpent is somewhat more survivable, although for every serpent you have on the Board a Dark Eldar can have two Venoms. Comparing the Durability of Two Venoms versus One Wave Serpent is difficult as its very situation dependent. Against Melta's and str9/10 there would be little difference....against Str 5-6-7 you would see the Wave Serpent is much more survivable. Its hard to quantify it unless you look at very specific examples.

Pask is a Tank Commander that's 70pts on top, is an HQ unit, and you *have* to take in a squadron, meaning usually that's a 400pt unit. Tanks can also only use Tank Commander Orders, which are far more limited than the normal Orders, which have to go off on an Ld9 test, one of which simply allows them to move Flat Out despite being Heavy, one allows them to Split Fire, and one allows them to pop smoke and fire. This is only available to a Tank Commander squadron (again, probably running ~400ish points at the minimum 2 unit size).

While the Russ does have better armor, being able to jink for a 4+ on demand (3+ with Holofields), on top of reducing Pens to Glances on a 2+ if you don't fire the shield, gives the Wave Serpent a tremendous amount of resiliency as well.

A dedicated transport having both that kind of firepower, and the potential resiliency, for *fewer* points and in larger availability than such a heavy battle tank, is a problem, and its 14% better at its *most basic*

With a scatterlaser, Shuriken Cannon, and Holofields, its still cheaper than that Leman Russ Exterminator, and in optimal range is putting out *far* more hurt

Even more important, it's significantly more capable against light armor. Against an AV11 target for example (like a Razorback for example), a kitted Wave Serpent with cannon is removing an average of 4 HP's from an AV11 vehicle (2 of which ignore cover), while if we give the Leman Russ Exterminator a Lascannon, increasing its cost to 160pts, its only removing an average of 2.58 (none of which ignore cover)

If the Wave Serpent were a heavy support battle tank with no transport capacity, people wouldn't have the same issues with it. But with that kind of potential firepower, and that kind of resiliency and surety of cargo delivery, for its relatively low points cost, and the the fact that it's available in just about every FoC slot to any infantry unit the Eldar have, that makes it a problem.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pask is a Tank Commander that's 70pts on top, is an HQ unit, and you *have* to take in a squadron, meaning usually that's a 400pt unit. Tanks can also only use Tank Commander Orders, which are far more limited than the normal Orders, which have to go off on an Ld9 test, one of which simply allows them to move Flat Out despite being Heavy, one allows them to Split Fire, and one allows them to pop smoke and fire. This is only available to a Tank Commander squadron (again, probably running ~400ish points at the minimum 2 unit size).

While the Russ does have better armor, being able to jink for a 4+ on demand (3+ with Holofields), on top of reducing Pens to Glances on a 2+ if you don't fire the shield, gives the Wave Serpent a tremendous amount of resiliency as well.

A dedicated transport having both that kind of firepower, and the potential resiliency, for *fewer* points and in larger availability than such a heavy battle tank, is a problem, and its 14% better at its *most basic*

With a scatterlaser, Shuriken Cannon, and Holofields, its still cheaper than that Leman Russ Exterminator, and in optimal range is putting out *far* more hurt

Even more important, it's significantly more capable against light armor. Against an AV11 target for example (like a Razorback for example), a kitted Wave Serpent with cannon is removing an average of 4 HP's from an AV11 vehicle (2 of which ignore cover), while if we give the Leman Russ Exterminator a Lascannon, increasing its cost to 160pts, its only removing an average of 2.58 (none of which ignore cover)

If the Wave Serpent were a heavy support battle tank with no transport capacity, people wouldn't have the same issues with it. But with that kind of potential firepower, and that kind of resiliency and surety of cargo delivery, for its relatively low points cost, and the the fact that it's available in just about every FoC slot to any infantry unit the Eldar have, that makes it a problem.

Compare it against something in the IG Codex that isnt terribad.

I compared it against a decent unit with similar weapons profiles.

Simply suggesting to compare it against something "not terribad" is a somewhat silly response, as it assumes the unit we're talking about is terribad (it isn't) as opposed to the Wave Serpent being hilariously overcapable.

What would you compare it against? Look for the most broken thing and compare it against that? Well, I'm up for suggestions as to what would be a good comparison for the Wave Serpent.

Should we compare it to the Imperial Guard's direct equivalent, the Chimera? Because that's only going to make the Wave Serpent look even more overpowered than the Leman Russ Exterminator comparison.

SirDonlad wrote:
it's got this perfect balance of weapon strengths and rules to be able to cover just about any situation and survive - my mate with eldar would argue that his 'superior race' will have perfected their vehicles over the millennia so 'of course it should be able to do it all' (potentially one of the few times that the fluff matches the rules).

Well, you know, why not? That's the exact same argument I see from Space Marine players on this very forum, basically. "Bolters are underpowered, they should be able to literally do it all because fluff and reasons.", "The basic Tactical Marine is underpowered, they should be able to do literally anything and do it as well as (or better than) the specialists of other races because fluff and reasons.", etc. We've had people giving bolters strength and AP buffs, more shots, and a huge list of special rules to "accurately" represent the frankly slowed Space Marine fluff on the tabletop, taking the bolter from being the baseline (as half the armies in the game use it as their basic gun) to the most OP basic troop gun in the game that can kill tanks and hordes of infantry alike, and arguing that this would finally achieve "balance" as a tactical squad could finally take on an entire army by it's lonesome, just like the examples we see in the fluff and BL novels.

So, what, it's okay for Space Marines to get significant buffs to make them match the fluff, and thus become nearly unstoppable on the table, but no other army should have their rules buffed to match their fluff?

SirDonlad wrote:
i see it and the wraithknight as matt ward's last hurrah before leaving - i wouldn't have bet that his d#*kprints look like spirit stones but we can all make mistakes..

Are you absolutely sure Mat Ward is to blame?

Codex: Eldar, 6th edition, Page 2: "Written by: Phil Kelly and Adam Troke."

I can understand why some people weren't fond of Ward, but please, stop acting like he was responsible for literally everything you dislike about modern 40k.

Guys, If we're to only use how many marines a given unit kills as a way to compare it to a fast transport skimmer with special shielding and other unique goodies, we're playing into this troll's hands. This doesn't need to go any further.

Time is better spent watching CSI:Bum-Freakin-Egypt than talking about how OP the Wave Serpent is for it's point cost.

Yeah...this is at least my 3rd reply to this thread. I know...I know...

Well, in some ways it makes sense. Marines are by far the most common army, and make up about half the factions in the game, so it stands to reason that the "value" of most units would be measured based on how many Marines they can kill per turn. And they usually are.

It's arguable whether that applies to a wave serpent or not, though...or I guess most transports.